30 for Sunnyside?

[Boris2k7]

Originally Posted by Full Mountain

I hardly think you have the authority or the knowledge of my situation to determine what I think is a real problem

Nor do I care what you think is a real problem. I don't think they are real problems, and I haven't seen any reason why your problem should become everyone's problem.

[Radley77]

Originally Posted by MasterG

Its not fair that Elbow gets a slower speed, while 5th Street SW doesn't even though it has more pedestrians, accidents and conflicts between cars and other users of the road.

There were no transportation safety reviews performed in 2010 or 2011 by the city of Calgary. Instead, city of Calgary relies to a large extent on community associations or BRZ's to lobby for traffic studies which I think generally results in the most vocal and influential getting majority of attention. Very much a process that awards political merit instead of technical merit.

[RyLucky]

Originally Posted by MasterG

Agreed about Sunnyside. This whole thing is a non-issue for that neighourhood. There are literally no problems with speed, traffic, or lack of pedestrian friendliness (except the aforementioned crossing Memorial by the Peace Bridge).



I am fine if playground zones address a legitimate safety issue. But fenced off schools set back from the road in the suburbs where parents drive the kids to school anyways? Its a waste of time and effort to police and develop.


The main problem I have is that it safety is being used disingenuously. See Elbow Drive between 4th Street and the Elbow River. Rich, powerful community association and members asked for that to be put in for the sake of "safety". Yeah right. It exists completely for the properties on the road to reduce the noise of traffic on their doorsteps. The rest of the community supports it because traffic is reduced. Its not fair that Elbow gets a slower speed, while 5th Street SW doesn't even though it has more pedestrians, accidents and conflicts between cars and other users of the road.

Using the safety of children as an argument to protect property from noise (again 40km/h noise, not Deerfoot) and traffic (again Elbow Drive, not a country club's driveway) is simply wrong.

These communities should be allowed to lobby for reducing speeds, but call it what it is. 30km/h to protect my property value and so that I don't have to deal with as much traffic when I leave my $2 million house in the inner city.

Imagine if every neighbourhood had the clout and power to do that, the city would be in gridlock.

Agreed completely.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by Full Mountain

Survivability rates for pedestrians in vehicle collisions go from 95% at 30 to 15% at ~60.

And I bet it's 99.9% at 5km/h. Why not propose that instead? This is about safety, right? Surely those 4.5% of people deserve your concern?

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by ByeByeBaby

Yeah, you're misunderstanding what is being said. You have not, in fact, stumbled onto a wormhole back to a message board from before September 1977, speed limits in Canada are in km/h. 30 km/h does not seem ridiculously low to me on local roads in all residential areas; surely the point is to only drive a short distance on them anyway.

There are residential roads that are many kilometres long in this city (and anywhere, really). Especially with the bizarre designs we've implemented over the years in various neighbourhoods.

For the record for those asking about it, and while I'm sure I'm not privvy to every single jurisdiction on the continent - damn near everywhere is 30/50 (mph/kph) in urban areas when unsigned.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by RyLucky

As for the argument over the functionality of playground zones, I think slowing to 30 one of those things that realistically has only a minor effect on safety, but the consequence of an accident with a child would be so devastating that that it's worth the slight inconvenience of slowi down even if it is only a courtesy.

My real complaint with this is twofold:

1. The attitude of "if it only saves ONE child" is used to justify some of the stupidest decisions in modern society. Witness this week's 15 year old being charged with creating child pornography because he wrote down his sexual fantasies (the harassment charges are separate, and I don't disagree with those). If it saves one child it's worth it, right? Sorry, but that's an almost universally stupid argument for something. Banning reproduction would prevent every child death, forever - but that seems pretty stupid now don't it?

2. I find drivers in Calgary are actually WORSE in school and playground zones. Basically, when you spend your entire driving "career" doing 50 in every residential setting, your brain unconsciously knows how fast that is. Without constantly staring at the speedometer. Which is what I see a lot of people doing. 30 is a completely unnatural speed given what 99% of the residential landscape looks like, so people have to make a serious effort to
"go that slow". Also, due to the ridiculously high level of enforcement in these zones (it's hundreds of dollars from what I recall, compared to a normal speeding ticket) people REALLY focus on going the exact speed. In a 50 zone, no one cares if they drift between 45 and 55. In a 30 zone, people are terrified of going 35. So you see people who are doing the exact OPPOSITE of what they should be doing, which is looking at the bloody road.

You can argue textbook "you're supposed to do x, y, z when you drive" all you want. The fact is that most people don't check their speed very often and never will. They rely on surrounding traffic, and failing that (which is usually the case in residential areas), they rely on visual cues outside of the vehicle. 30 just isn't natural for most drivers out there. And it shows, when you watch traffic in these zones. Some of the worst driving I've seen in Calgary has been in playground zones (don't even get me started on the internal "is it an hour past sunset" debate I see going through people's heads, right before they slam on the brakes).

I know this is also an argument to make the entire city 30, which I think is so far towards stupid I don't really want to get into it.

Traffic laws must take into account what people WOULD do. Not simply what they SHOULD do.

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by freeweed

2. I find drivers in Calgary are actually WORSE in school and playground zones. Basically, when you spend your entire driving "career" doing 50 in every residential setting, your brain unconsciously knows how fast that is. Without constantly staring at the speedometer. Which is what I see a lot of people doing. 30 is a completely unnatural speed given what 99% of the residential landscape looks like, so people have to make a serious effort to
"go that slow". Also, due to the ridiculously high level of enforcement in these zones (it's hundreds of dollars from what I recall, compared to a normal speeding ticket) people REALLY focus on going the exact speed. In a 50 zone, no one cares if they drift between 45 and 55. In a 30 zone, people are terrified of going 35. So you see people who are doing the exact OPPOSITE of what they should be doing, which is looking at the bloody road.

Agree 100%. I remember seeing something on the news a few years ago about enforcement, and they spoke to a guy who got a ticket for doing 33 in a playground zone. I always wondered what is better; for somebody to be doing "about 30", or for somebody to be constantly watching the speedometer to keep it at 28-30.

[Full Mountain]

Originally Posted by freeweed

My real complaint with this is twofold:

1. The attitude of "if it only saves ONE child" is used to justify some of the stupidest decisions in modern society. Witness this week's 15 year old being charged with creating child pornography because he wrote down his sexual fantasies (the harassment charges are separate, and I don't disagree with those). If it saves one child it's worth it, right? Sorry, but that's an almost universally stupid argument for something. Banning reproduction would prevent every child death, forever - but that seems pretty stupid now don't it?

2. I find drivers in Calgary are actually WORSE in school and playground zones. Basically, when you spend your entire driving "career" doing 50 in every residential setting, your brain unconsciously knows how fast that is. Without constantly staring at the speedometer. Which is what I see a lot of people doing. 30 is a completely unnatural speed given what 99% of the residential landscape looks like, so people have to make a serious effort to
"go that slow". Also, due to the ridiculously high level of enforcement in these zones (it's hundreds of dollars from what I recall, compared to a normal speeding ticket) people REALLY focus on going the exact speed. In a 50 zone, no one cares if they drift between 45 and 55. In a 30 zone, people are terrified of going 35. So you see people who are doing the exact OPPOSITE of what they should be doing, which is looking at the bloody road.

You can argue textbook "you're supposed to do x, y, z when you drive" all you want. The fact is that most people don't check their speed very often and never will. They rely on surrounding traffic, and failing that (which is usually the case in residential areas), they rely on visual cues outside of the vehicle. 30 just isn't natural for most drivers out there. And it shows, when you watch traffic in these zones. Some of the worst driving I've seen in Calgary has been in playground zones (don't even get me started on the internal "is it an hour past sunset" debate I see going through people's heads, right before they slam on the brakes).

I know this is also an argument to make the entire city 30, which I think is so far towards stupid I don't really want to get into it.

Traffic laws must take into account what people WOULD do. Not simply what they SHOULD do.

Is it not natural because that is how they've always done it? Or is there a another reason? (I believe 'that's hows it's always been done' is the most BS excuse available to man kind against change)

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by Full Mountain

Is it not natural because that is how they've always done it? Or is there a another reason? (I believe 'that's hows it's always been done' is the most BS excuse available to man kind against change)

It's natural because it's what every other (for the most part) residential road is set at. Having to suddenly drop your speed nearly by half, for a very short distance, with no perceived safety reason beyond signage (let's face it, most school and playground zones are deserted 99% of the time these speed limits are in place) is therefore extremely unintuitive.

If you feel it's worthwhile to set residential zones to 30, everywhere on the continent, and retrain a few hundred million drivers, all at once - then sure, we can change. That's about the only way to make this really work. Until then however - people will do what people will do.

Kids aren't getting killed because of 50 km/h, which is the norm practically everywhere else. I'd love to see statistics showing that Calgary is any safer for children than any other Canadian city, most of which do not have 8000 playground zones scattered about with strict enforcement (a ticket for 33? seriously?). And I'd also love to see the statistics that show a meaningful reduction in children being struck by cars since Calgary implemented the strict 30 zones. Surely these haven't been around forever. I also want these statistics to be adjusted for the fact that kids under 14 practically aren't allowed to WALK anywhere these days, anyway.

[Radley77]

There is a pilot project in Calgary aimed at school zones as well. From the report measures include:

• Traffic cones with reflective spinning anemometer
• Neighbourhood speed watch program
• Reflective tape on school/playground zone sign poles
• Double signing at start of school/playground zones
• Bigger school/playground zone signs
• Multiple playground and school zone signs within a zone
• Zone ahead signs
• Road Marking Stencils

Rumble strips were not recommended based on noise and other research from other jurisdictions. Vulnerable road users represent 20% of those injured in Canada. Pilot project costs estimated at $20,000.

http://agendaminutes.calgary.ca/sire...3024054332.PDF'

Another significant advocacy group event was the Traffic Safety Stakeholder Meeting held on April 25th:
http://schools.cbe.ab.ca/b397/pdfs/trafficsummary.pdf

One of the things I thought were interesting is that they mention the volume of calls on grid system schools was much lighter where parents can drop the kids "drop off students on any side of the school ground and watch them enter" whereas grid system leaves "little room for parking".

Also interesting was the discussion about the erosion of walkability saying, "Over the past 20-30 years, there has been a cultural and demographic shift. School kids once walked alone or had a stay-at-home parent to walk with them. Today’s dual-income families don’t have as many options. As well, our ballooning city has new schools further away from homes so that those kids can’t walk either. As building resources are limited, one school now serves three or four communities until new schools can be built later. This is not just a Calgary problem." Not mentioned also is that over the last 30 years childhood obesity rates have tripled in Canada.

[freeweed]

That's a joke, right?

I live right next to a school zone. You know what's endangering these kids? 300 cars showing up thrice a day to pick them up and drop them off! I've never seen anyone speed through that area when kids are on the sidewalk (all 5 of them). But I have seen 10x as many cars as necessary, and near-roadrage incidents because the place turns into a gigantic parking lot for half an hour. Cars doing illegal u-turns, driving completely erratically to get through this mess, you name it.

And I'm in one of the more under control school zones, from what I've heard. One neighbourhood (I think in the NE) has had to resort to basically traffic cops just to keep the chaos under control.

[lubicon]

Originally Posted by freeweed

That's a joke, right?

I live right next to a school zone. You know what's endangering these kids? 300 cars showing up thrice a day to pick them up and drop them off! I've never seen anyone speed through that area when kids are on the sidewalk (all 5 of them). But I have seen 10x as many cars as necessary, and near-roadrage incidents because the place turns into a gigantic parking lot for half an hour. Cars doing illegal u-turns, driving completely erratically to get through this mess, you name it.
And I'm in one of the more under control school zones, from what I've heard. One neighbourhood (I think in the NE) has had to resort to basically traffic cops just to keep the chaos under control.

Don't worry Freeweed, the new Pace Cars you are getting in your neighborhood will take care of this issue. Everything will be calm, slow, and happy very soon.

[Radley77]

Originally Posted by freeweed

That's a joke, right?

I live right next to a school zone. You know what's endangering these kids? 300 cars showing up thrice a day to pick them up and drop them off! I've never seen anyone speed through that area when kids are on the sidewalk (all 5 of them). But I have seen 10x as many cars as necessary, and near-roadrage incidents because the place turns into a gigantic parking lot for half an hour. Cars doing illegal u-turns, driving completely erratically to get through this mess, you name it.

And I'm in one of the more under control school zones, from what I've heard. One neighbourhood (I think in the NE) has had to resort to basically traffic cops just to keep the chaos under control.

I think there were 100's of parents that went to this forum... and don't get how the City of Calgary eight recommendations will fix the shenanigans of the u-turns and erratic driving of the 100's of cars showing up several times a day.

The school nearest to where I live has a large "walking school bus" of about 40 kiddlets and seems to work well.

Somewhat makes me sad that this has become a lost art:


Well not everywhere, this is in Tuscany on a rainy day:


Or these troopers here that I met a couple months ago:
• Video Link

[MarkL]

Originally Posted by Radley77

The pedestrian and cyclist accident info is from the Calgary Police Service via a request I made under the FOIP act. I plan to work with community associations, AMA, Bike Calgary and other community organizations before making the full data set publicly available. Repeatability shows predictability and hope to work with these and other organizations to offer suggestions for change...

I am really interested in the data you've obtained. Does it breakdown who was at fault with each of the incidents? I think this would be a fairly interesting data point.

Having just driven home through a bright sunny afternoon rush hour (fuck you commuters, btw) because I had to get a $2.15 box of push points to fix my 100 year old windows, *breath*, there were four major incidences of pedestrians and cyclists doing really dumb things that put them in harm's way, and one incidence of a driver putting a pedestrian in harm's way. It makes me wonder if a pedestrian education campaign would actually be the best bang for the buck.

Examples: - The "I can make it" jaywalker (many jaywalkers but one guy that was really cutting it close)
- The "I'm really in a hurry to get home" pedestrian who jumps out diagonally kind of near the intersection as the light is about to go red for them.
- Cyclist cuts into the driving lane from between two parked cars mid block without looking what's coming. In his defense he looked like he just came out of a meeting, and was expecting everyone to do his bidding.
- Guy waiting for light to change, but actually standing about two feet onto the road in a driving lane. Glaring at cars that "came too close" to him.
- Pedestrian trying to cross street in beltline, mid block from between two cars. "Considerate" driver stops mid block to let jaywalker cross from between cars. Unfortunately, driver coming from other direction didn't get the memo (and had absolutely no way to see what was coming) and almost kills pedestrian. I put this one more onto the driver who stopped.

I really do hope there is some context to these pedestrian/cyclist vs. car statistics otherwise they might be used for political/ideological purposes and I know none of us would want that.

[Radley77]

Originally Posted by MarkL

I am really interested in the data you've obtained. Does it breakdown who was at fault with each of the incidents? I think this would be a fairly interesting data point.

Having just driven home through a bright sunny afternoon rush hour (fuck you commuters, btw) because I had to get a $2.15 box of push points to fix my 100 year old windows, *breath*, there were four major incidences of pedestrians and cyclists doing really dumb things that put them in harm's way, and one incidence of a driver putting a pedestrian in harm's way. It makes me wonder if a pedestrian education campaign would actually be the best bang for the buck.

Examples: - The "I can make it" jaywalker (many jaywalkers but one guy that was really cutting it close)
- The "I'm really in a hurry to get home" pedestrian who jumps out diagonally kind of near the intersection as the light is about to go red for them.
- Cyclist cuts into the driving lane from between two parked cars mid block without looking what's coming. In his defense he looked like he just came out of a meeting, and was expecting everyone to do his bidding.
- Guy waiting for light to change, but actually standing about two feet onto the road in a driving lane. Glaring at cars that "came too close" to him.
- Pedestrian trying to cross street in beltline, mid block from between two cars. "Considerate" driver stops mid block to let jaywalker cross from between cars. Unfortunately, driver coming from other direction didn't get the memo (and had absolutely no way to see what was coming) and almost kills pedestrian. I put this one more onto the driver who stopped.

I really do hope there is some context to these pedestrian/cyclist vs. car statistics otherwise they might be used for political/ideological purposes and I know none of us would want that.

Good points. I see pedestrians and cyclists almost on a daily basis doing things that are illegal or putting themselves or others at risk from pedestrians crossing the street without looking first or cyclists riding on sidewalks.

I agree that a pedestrian safety campaign could be done. Places like public transit, schools and major activity centres like the CBD are good places to start with messaging. These things are obvious, but it's important to have positive reinforcement. And it's not uncommon in places like New Zealand or Australia to hear of mini events like this to educate:

• Video Link

Reference: http://www.aucklandtransport.govt.nz...-You-Step.aspx

Under the new cycling strategy, one of the major pillars was the need for education and there is now one person at the City of Calgary that speaks specific to cycling education. I have seen stats that say that 50% of time pedestrians are at fault in an accident. At the end of the day, everyone is responsible for safety and yes am somewhat concerned that the data is used by those who seek to polarize instead of everyone trying to change behaviour a little bit.

[RyLucky]

A lot of good points have been raised, but I think it's too small a deal to care about. Say a playground zone is 200 m. Going 30 km/h instead of going 50 km/h takes 36 seconds longer assuming uniform speed. If that's all it takes to make parents feel comfortable, is it really a big deal? Yes, it's political. No, 30 is not necessarily safer than 50. I agree with Freeweed that using the "if it saves one child it's worth it" argument is somewhat overplayed, but if all it takes to make everyone happy is 36 second, especially when there is evidence that lowering speeds reduce distance travelled during reactions, then who cares? Bare in mind that playground zones don't really affect cyclists or transit commuters or pedestrians. It seems to me that there is often more of these other modes in playground zones due to a variety of factors.

It's interesting how the topics of these forums evolves!

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by RyLucky

A lot of good points have been raised, but I think it's too small a deal to care about. Say a playground zone is 200 m. Going 30 km/h instead of going 50 km/h takes 36 seconds longer assuming uniform speed. If that's all it takes to make parents feel comfortable, is it really a big deal? Yes, it's political. No, 30 is not necessarily safer than 50. I agree with Freeweed that using the "if it saves one child it's worth it" argument is somewhat overplayed, but if all it takes to make everyone happy is 36 second, especially when there is evidence that lowering speeds reduce distance travelled during reactions, then who cares?

I care. Pandering to stupid, ignorant beliefs, just to make people "feel better", and justifying it with "it's not THAT much of an inconvenience" - we're supposed to be an educated, enlightened society for fuck's sake. Not a bunch of ignorant fools praying that somehow our actions "might make us feel safer".

Instead, why don't we actually try to EDUCATE people on what REAL threats to their children are. Texting while driving. Rushing around to 6 after-school events because you just can't say no to little Johnny's desire to play 5 sports this year. Cramming 300 cars into a residential street several times a day, because we think that an 8 year old walking home from school is somehow "dangerous". There are a million things people do every day that are legitimately endangering children, and yet we're focussed so strongly on "speed kills" that we're actively ignoring real threats.

It's exactly like the modern pedophilia scare. Children are being raised in a culture of abject fear of strangers, when all evidence conclusively points to family/friends/authority figures as being the real danger. And the only real logic presented is "well it makes me FEEL safer, so it's justified". Hell, the entire anti-vaccination movement runs on this exact "logic", and it's KILLING KIDS RIGHT NOW.

Sorry, I just can't handle the culture of idiots we're creating, all in the name of "safety".

Also, from a purely mathematical standpoint - if every single person in a city is inconvenienced by a mere 36 seconds, that adds up to thousands of lost hours. And if it's literally for nothing but a "feeling of safety" - it's indefensible.

Show me, compared to other cities and previous decades, how 50 km/h is dangerous for kids. And how Calgary has saved many lives and prevented many injuries as a result of our strict 30 km/h enforcement. Let's see some actual evidence that this is even needed. I'd also be curious as to the money spent over say the last decade, in terms of signage, enforcement, education programs, City committee meetings (or whatever is involved in terms of setting something like this up), etc. I bet we've spent hundreds of thousands of dollars, if not millions on the whole thing.

Hell, when was the last time we spent any money on a campaign to teach kids "look both ways before crossing the street"? Or have we just become so passive that we assume that 30 km/h will magically remove that need?

[You Need A Thneed]

Originally Posted by RyLucky

A lot of good points have been raised, but I think it's too small a deal to care about. Say a playground zone is 200 m. Going 30 km/h instead of going 50 km/h takes 36 seconds longer assuming uniform speed. If that's all it takes to make parents feel comfortable, is it really a big deal? Yes, it's political. No, 30 is not necessarily safer than 50. I agree with Freeweed that using the "if it saves one child it's worth it" argument is somewhat overplayed, but if all it takes to make everyone happy is 36 second, especially when there is evidence that lowering speeds reduce distance travelled during reactions, then who cares? Bare in mind that playground zones don't really affect cyclists or transit commuters or pedestrians. It seems to me that there is often more of these other modes in playground zones due to a variety of factors.

It's interesting how the topics of these forums evolves!

Not 36 seconds longer.

9.6 seconds longer.

200 metres at 50 km/h takes 14.4 seconds
200 metres at 30 km/h takes 24 seconds.

Stopping distance from 50km/h - 24 metres
Stopping distance from 30km/h - 10.8 metres (from here)

Also, it goes without saying that collisions that happen with cars that were going 30k vs 50 5k are going to be less severe.

I know the law likes black and white rules, but there really should be some common sense with playground zones. Going 33 in a playground zone at this time of year when it's 10:30 pm and all the kids are asleep is illegal, but going through one at 7:59 am when kids may be walking to school at 50k is completely legal. We should just have a law that works something like this: Residential areas have a speed limit of 50 (unless otherwise stated), however, if children are closeby , then the speed limit is 30.

Obviously, that would take a little bit of wording, but I think that idea would work much better.

[Radley77]

Originally Posted by freeweed

I care. Pandering to stupid, ignorant beliefs, just to make people "feel better", and justifying it with "it's not THAT much of an inconvenience" - we're supposed to be an educated, enlightened society for fuck's sake. Not a bunch of ignorant fools praying that somehow our actions "might make us feel safer".

Instead, why don't we actually try to EDUCATE people on what REAL threats to their children are. Texting while driving. Rushing around to 6 after-school events because you just can't say no to little Johnny's desire to play 5 sports this year. Cramming 300 cars into a residential street several times a day, because we think that an 8 year old walking home from school is somehow "dangerous". There are a million things people do every day that are legitimately endangering children, and yet we're focussed so strongly on "speed kills" that we're actively ignoring real threats.

It's exactly like the modern pedophilia scare. Children are being raised in a culture of abject fear of strangers, when all evidence conclusively points to family/friends/authority figures as being the real danger. And the only real logic presented is "well it makes me FEEL safer, so it's justified". Hell, the entire anti-vaccination movement runs on this exact "logic", and it's KILLING KIDS RIGHT NOW.

Sorry, I just can't handle the culture of idiots we're creating, all in the name of "safety".

Also, from a purely mathematical standpoint - if every single person in a city is inconvenienced by a mere 36 seconds, that adds up to thousands of lost hours. And if it's literally for nothing but a "feeling of safety" - it's indefensible.

Show me, compared to other cities and previous decades, how 50 km/h is dangerous for kids. And how Calgary has saved many lives and prevented many injuries as a result of our strict 30 km/h enforcement. Let's see some actual evidence that this is even needed. I'd also be curious as to the money spent over say the last decade, in terms of signage, enforcement, education programs, City committee meetings (or whatever is involved in terms of setting something like this up), etc. I bet we've spent hundreds of thousands of dollars, if not millions on the whole thing.

Hell, when was the last time we spent any money on a campaign to teach kids "look both ways before crossing the street"? Or have we just become so passive that we assume that 30 km/h will magically remove that need?

I'd say that the cost to have a police officer at every schoolyard ticketing is astronomical. Unfortunately, sometimes it has taken a child's death like the three year old that was killed at the C-train state before some of the new safety signage was put up.

I like the education approach. The four e's of transportation safety are: education, enforcement, engineering (infrastructure) and evaluation (review process). I get the sense that the education and evaluation process are so dysfunctional in Calgary now that some community groups are resorting to the dark side of social engineering (for instance like the over regulated 30 kmphr in Sunnyside proposal).

And some of the complaints that pedestrians have are legitimate including the fatal hit and run earlier this year, or the major hit and run incident that happened on 17 Ave last night. There are about 100 hit and runs that happen annually in Calgary (most of which aren't reported in the media), and you can't create safer conditions for pedestrians always through more enforcement or engineering stupidly slow road speeds.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by You Need A Thneed

We should just have a law that works something like this: Residential areas have a speed limit of 50 (unless otherwise stated), however, if children are closeby , then the speed limit is 30.

Obviously, that would take a little bit of wording, but I think that idea would work much better.

Yeah, sadly this is how things used to work in many jurisdictions. It becomes a bit tricky on the enforcement side (what defines "close by", etc). And it relies on the concept of "common sense", which of course if it was common, we wouldn't need these rules.

So I don't really know what the answer is. What I do know is that children can be taught much better traffic awareness than we teach today. At least, if children are being mowed down in the numbers people seem to think warrant all of these 30 zones. People keep repeating that a 30 collision is so much safer than a 50 - which is obviously true - but no one seems to ask *why* we're seeing so many collisions in the first place. What's changed that kids are routinely coming into contact with vehicles in recent years?