What cities have a high quality of life?

[edale]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

Well, my main point was that cleanliness tends to vary quite a great deal WITHIN most cities.

My own city is very much like that.

I think Chicago is exceptionally clean. At least downtown, it's probably one of the cleanest cities I've ever spent time in.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by edale

I think Chicago is exceptionally clean.

It's also quite big.

It's got its fair share of dirtier areas too.

We don't land on top of the rat infestation list year after year for nothing.

A lot of it has to do with the ubiquitous alleys.

They do a decent job of perhaps keeping the trash out of sight, but it's still there.

Chicago has some of the staunchest demarcations between "front of house" and "back of house" that you'll find anywhere.

[Kngkyle]

A city that I've been to multiple times that is incredibly clean but also incredibly sterile and dare I say boring is... Singapore. The climate is also dreadful.

[Nouvellecosse]

When it comes to talk about whether things are objective or subjective there's a big part that people tend to miss. Objective simply means that there is an external fact of the matter regardless of how anyone feels about it or perceives it, while subjective means that there really isn't any facts beyond feelings and perceptions.

But the part that people seem to miss is that there are usually correlations within a species that cause members to share many preferences and perceptions just as there are similarities with their anatomies. This is what's referred to as inter-subjective. Cases in which something subjective is widely enough shared within a particular domain (like within a species or culture) to function as if it were objective in that context.

There's a class of tropical flower species sometimes referred to as carrion flowers that produce a scent similar to a decaying corpse. This sent attracts certain insects which act as pollinators. In the subjective experience of those insects the plant probably smells wonderful, while to most people it smells terrible. While on the other hand, a rose smells much better to most people than it would to most of the insects that are attracted by the carrion flowers. Most house flies would probably prefer the carrion flowers, but if they were discussing the topic of best smelling flowers, no doubt there would be that one guy who says, "Hey call me crazy but I actually prefer the rose. These things are all subjective anyway" But there can still be a fact of the matter within particular domains even if there are exceptions or outliers

Of course the difference is that cities are all human creations that are designed and built to human tastes. So it's more like flies debating which species of carrion flower smells the best. In that case individual variation plays a bigger role but that doesn't mean that there aren't still trends in which inter-subjective correlations can be observed. The vast majority of people can't just choose among their favorite cities in the world in which to live. There are significant limitations in terms of money, jobs, language, national borders, etc. So it's very conceivable that there are cities that do a much better job at appealing to an inter-subjective majority or plurality than others. So treating such topics as if it's all individual and random just because it involves subjective preference is quite inaccurate. Yes some preferences are totally random without any significant trends, but that isn't usually the case. And assuming otherwise doesn't help people decide the best ways to design cities nor the best cities to move to or visit.

[pip]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

It's also quite big.

It's got its fair share of dirtier areas too.

We don't land on top of the rat infestation list year after year for nothing.

A lot of it has to do with the ubiquitous alleys.

They do a decent job of perhaps keeping the trash out of sight, but it's still there.

Chicago has some of the staunchest demarcations between "front of house" and "back of house" that you'll find anywhere.

What is the trick behind that stat? I've heard this before and I don't buy it. Especially after spending time in Boston. Is it a pest company and Chicagoans are more likely to call for a rat problem or use that company?

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

But there can still be a fact of the matter within particular domains even if there are exceptions or outliers.

Outlier here.

Probably cuz I'm American.

Nation of abject fucking idiots.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by pip

What is the trick behind that stat? I've heard this before and I don't buy it. Especially after spending time in Boston. Is it a pest company and Chicagoans are more likely to call for a rat problem or use that company?

I think it's the alleys.

We built an entire comprehensive street grid for people.

And then we overlayed an entire other comprehensive street grid on top of it for the rats.

[Wigs]

Steely, don't fret. We have a seemingly growing number of eejits (UK spelling) in Canada too

[UrbanRevival]

Originally Posted by badrunner

But his point wasn't that everything is subjective, which is a trite and meaningless observation. His point was that QOL depends on the person as much as the city - an equally trite and meaningless observation.

Strongly disagree with your characterization of either point as "trite and meaningless;" subjectivity is what frames the entire conversation, as evidenced by this thread.

And yes, things you mentioned like weather, food, culture and "urban quality"--again, another topic that is fiercely debated on this forum, are fundamentally subjective.

That's how human judgment works. If you asked 10 posters here to list, in order, the "10 best cities," you'll get 10 different answers. That's precisely what I'm referring to, and it's just the reality of different tastes, priorities, emotions and experiences.

[AviationGuy]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Europe has a ton of cities that would fit the criteria... Berlin, Lisbon, almost any major city in Italy, much of Spain.

I've been to London and definitely agree. Also have been to the Italian cities, and although there are wonderful things about them, they are so dirty I couldn't live there.

[AviationGuy]

Originally Posted by edale

Austin has one of the best downtowns in the country?! Agree to disagree I suppose...I wouldn't put it in the top 20 in North America tbh.

Then you haven't been there in the last decade. Typical Edale comment.

[TWAK]

Originally Posted by AviationGuy

Then you haven't been there in the last decade. Typical Edale comment.

Downtown Austin went supercharged
Very jealous as a booster of Sacramento (overlooked metro/state cap).

The Marin and Sonoma county cities have a high quality of life, but they sure are some serious NIMBYs.

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by AviationGuy

Then you haven't been there in the last decade. Typical Edale comment.

I was there in 2011 and you could tell it was really starting to boom even then. Like, one had the foresight to see where it was heading. Can only imagine 2024

Edit: The Austonian was still new and a big deal. Now Austin is building a 66 storey, 875ft tower!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixth_and_Guadalupe

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by TWAK

Downtown Austin went supercharged
Very jealous as a booster of Sacramento (overlooked metro/state cap).

The Marin and Sonoma county cities have a high quality of life, but they sure are some serious NIMBYs.

Why is Sac so...I dunno what the word is...lacklustre? It should be one of the fastest growing Metros in the country with a vibrant downtown, considering California has 40 million people and a 4 Trillion dollar economy

[pip]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

I think it's the alleys.

We built an entire comprehensive street grid for people.

And then we overlayed an entire other comprehensive street grid on top of it for the rats.

I get what you are saying. I'm still not buying it. When I was a smoker I overlooked an alley maybe 24/7 haha in Lakeview. I rarely saw a rat if I did. I'm now in basically suburban Boston, in the Brighton neighborhood, one block from the suburb of Brookline - which is a fantastic suburb btw. I see rats all the time scurrying around at night.

Back in Chicago today for a while.

Also I'm going to put Chicago up there as a very clean city.

[Buckeye Native 001]

Originally Posted by TWAK

Downtown Austin went supercharged
Very jealous as a booster of Sacramento (overlooked metro/state cap).

Hey don't fret! You're getting a baseball team next year, albeit temporarily (presumably!?)

[JManc]

Sacramento kinda reminds of what Austin was like 15-20 years ago. It's got a more laid vibe while Austin grew from a big funky college town to Bay Area lite.

[Crawford]

The discourse about downtown Austin supports the claim that this is all subjective. I find downtown Austin completely bland/forgettable. Another Charlotte. Others obviously disagree.

I'd go so far to say there are no really good downtowns in TX, though Fort Worth, SA and EP are more interesting than others. Even those three are fundamentally weak and relatively unimportant in their regions but they aren't cookie-cutter.

[montréaliste]

Detroit.

[Crawford]

Detroit arguably has a pretty good QoL. Not my cup of tea but it makes sense. High U.S. incomes and high quality, relatively affordable housing, major intl. airport, strong legacy assets and about as easy to get around as any global metro of 5 million. No growth metros like Detroit, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Buffalo allow middle class households to access big homes and good school districts with nearby high culture at relatively low prices. And your kids have potential access to University of Michigan, a huge asset.

In contrast, much of the Sunbelt is much more expensive, schools are worse, traffic is worse and there's no legacy high culture. And there are lots of good public colleges in places like FL, TX, TN, GA, AZ, but nothing equivalent to UM. Different strokes.