Dead Malls of Canada

[YYCguys]

North Hill Mall, in Calgary, is along the TCH, just a couple of train stops north of downtown. It has never been a major mall and had very little foot traffic, but when Sears announced its liqiuidation, foot traffic in this one spine retail area separating Sears and Safeway, foot traffic picked up. Now that Sears has closed, I’ve noticed that foot traffic has significantly slowed and there’s about a half dozen empty storefronts apart from the Sears one. I hope that the owners reinvent this mall. It seems popular with seniors and with Southen Alberta Institute of Technology (its adjacent to it) students.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Acajack

This raises an important question that I think I've kind of touched upon before: what is the role in government in all of this?

Is it simply to not get in the way of development and allow all of it to happen if boxes X, Y and Z are checked off on some form they have? Even if it means cannibalizing other areas (that can sometimes be aesthetically desirable or significant)?

Or do they have a role in determining what type of city we end up with, what it will look like, etc.?

Because what we are still seeing in lots of (most?) places is basically little regard to the latter point.

Land gets rezoned at the request of developer A, who then builds newer and cheaper spaces that is offered to retailer B who vacates his space (that he's been renting for years from developer C) just up the road.

I realize this is capitalism and free enterprise at work but lots of capitalist free market countries don't nec essarily let their cities develop in this cannabalistic way, and as a result don't have pock-marked decayed, gap-toothed commercial strips like we do.

A few weeks ago I was in an Ottawa suburb and looking for a Beer Store to return some bought-in-Quebec wine bottles for the Ontario refund. Yeah, I know that's cheating.

Anyway, I went to where I thought the Beer Store was (it had been there for years) and found out it had moved about 800 m to a brand new strip mall that had been built over the past few months in the middle of what was once I imagine to be a cornfield.

The other strip mall space, now left vacant (and one of an increasing number of vacancies in that strip mall that's barely 20 years old) wasn't any less spacious or easy to access for customers. In fact, the new location is further away for most people and doesn't have that many people living near it. Yet.

I don't understand why there isn't a broader debate on these approaches to development. Seems a lot like robbing Peter to pay Paul.

[ssiguy]

I appreciate your concern about the government's role in all of this but frankly it's not the governments business to be picking winners and losers. If expanding businesses don't want to go into these dead malls or near empty strip plazas there is a valid reason for that.

Businesses do not just set up shop in a place for the purpose of just cheap land. There is a LOT of planning that goes into these new developments and much of it has to do with demographics. Just as these malls/plazas looked good 30 years ago in terms of being near their shpping base so do these today. Those shoppers that patronized these mallls/plazas in the 1980s have moved away leaving older populations with less disposable income and very importantly a market that is far less concerned with getting every new gadget or buying the newest fashions or fads. This is also partly why the only stores that still hang on in these abandoned malls are the grocery and drug stores.........even if you are old you still need groceries and as you age you are more likely to visit a pharmacy then when you were younger. Does the government have the right to turn to businesses and tell them that have to expand in an a mall that's dying effectively telling these new businesses that business here failed but we expect you to fill that vacancy so you can fail too?

These new big box stores are not creating new centres as much as they are following their customer base. Is it the governments job {or even right} to tell them they can't do that? The city can certainly restrict where a business can set up shop and help densify the area but if an area is zoned for commercial they have every right to take advantage of it. What the city could do is help rezone the dying mall/plaza areas into higher density modes essentially bringing those shopper back to the area but then the city is it's own worse enemy in this. As soon as the area is designated as residential and property prices in the area start to rise then they increase the property tax rate so the cost of the leases in the mall soar to help pay for it.

[yaletown_fella]

Any idea if Simons is taking over the vacated Sears space at Scarborough Town Center?

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

I appreciate your concern about the government's role in all of this but frankly it's not the governments business to be picking winners and losers. If expanding businesses don't want to go into these dead malls or near empty strip plazas there is a valid reason for that.

Businesses do not just set up shop in a place for the purpose of just cheap land. There is a LOT of planning that goes into these new developments and much of it has to do with demographics. Just as these malls/plazas looked good 30 years ago in terms of being near their shpping base so do these today. Those shoppers that patronized these mallls/plazas in the 1980s have moved away leaving older populations with less disposable income and very importantly a market that is far less concerned with getting every new gadget or buying the newest fashions or fads. This is also partly why the only stores that still hang on in these abandoned malls are the grocery and drug stores.........even if you are old you still need groceries and as you age you are more likely to visit a pharmacy then when you were younger. Does the government have the right to turn to businesses and tell them that have to expand in an a mall that's dying effectively telling these new businesses that business here failed but we expect you to fill that vacancy so you can fail too?

These new big box stores are not creating new centres as much as they are following their customer base. Is it the governments job {or even right} to tell them they can't do that? The city can certainly restrict where a business can set up shop and help densify the area but if an area is zoned for commercial they have every right to take advantage of it. What the city could do is help rezone the dying mall/plaza areas into higher density modes essentially bringing those shopper back to the area but then the city is it's own worse enemy in this. As soon as the area is designated as residential and property prices in the area start to rise then they increase the property tax rate so the cost of the leases in the mall soar to help pay for it.

To me it's the zoning and official plan that are the root problem. Specific to the case in London, I don't see any compelling reason why such a vast swath of land needed to be zoned commercial well south of where people actually lived. London already had a glut of commercial property and someone thought it would be great to add a huge amount of new commercial land that wasn't needed.

Once it's in the official plan and the zoning is in place, there's no stopping it.

[Proof Sheet]

https://seanmarshall.ca/2018/02/14/o...owntown-malls/

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by YYCguys

North Hill Mall, in Calgary, is along the TCH, just a couple of train stops north of downtown. It has never been a major mall and had very little foot traffic, but when Sears announced its liqiuidation, foot traffic in this one spine retail area separating Sears and Safeway, foot traffic picked up. Now that Sears has closed, I’ve noticed that foot traffic has significantly slowed and there’s about a half dozen empty storefronts apart from the Sears one. I hope that the owners reinvent this mall. It seems popular with seniors and with Southen Alberta Institute of Technology (its adjacent to it) students.

Now without Sears the only anchor is Safeway and maybe the Gym. The foodcourt probably still does well. I used to go there for lunch in my ACAD days.

[O-tacular]

I present to you... the Drumheller mall!

[WhipperSnapper]

I like it. It's just so dated and cheap.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

I like it. It's just so dated and cheap.

I don't think it's been touched since the 70's. Like so many other small town places of business it is a victim of a nearby Walmart. I think the Co-op is the only thing left open in it.

[Xelebes]

Remarkable similarity to Stettler's mall before the renovation a decade ago.

[HomeInMyShoes]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

I don't think it's been touched since the 70's. Like so many other small town places of business it is a victim of a nearby Walmart. I think the Co-op is the only thing left open in it.

That looks more 80s than 70s.

The Greentree Mall Merchants Facebook page is quite fascinating. I shall have to stop in and say hi to Penny next time I am through Drumheller.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by HomeInMyShoes

That looks more 80s than 70s.

The Greentree Mall Merchants Facebook page is quite fascinating. I shall have to stop in and say hi to Penny next time I am through Drumheller.

How enticing! That actually works to have a Witch as their mascot since the Greentree mall is basically beside the cemetery.

[MolsonExport]

Dan-Bartles flikr

The long-demolished Rexdale Plaza.

[megadude]

So is New Horizon Mall in Calgary already a dead mall?

I haven't been to Pacific Mall in 10 years but I remember it being a zoo in the parking lot. My grandmother used to live a couple minutes drive from there. And I still pass by once a year or so.

Pacific is well located as it's in a densely populated Asian area on the Markham/Scarboro border. It seems this New Horizon is well out of the city meaning it would need to be a destination mall, which I don't picture glorified flea markets being, unlike premium outlets. And this is the same developer as Pacific Mall!

I'm sure this has already been discussed on the Calgary forum but could this mall be dead before it even comes to life? I hope not. I'd genuinely feel bad for the investors of these condo retail units.

I kind of felt bad for a lot of the regular joes who dropped huge deposits on the stupid Trump Tower condo/hotel units in Toronto. A lot got duped by having that name alone, but the lesson is, you can't always buy into the hype and put all your eggs in one basket. At least that building is no longer Trump and is being re-branded The Regis. I think it's mostly full, but have no idea if the original investors found any recourse or salvaged something.


Not much has changed inside the mall since this photograph was taken in May 2018. JIM WELLS / POSTMEDIA

The developer of a nearly empty new mall just north of Calgary says he’s confident it will become the bustling Asian-style bazaar it is meant to be despite having to delay its late-October grand opening until sometime next year.

Only nine of 517 retail spaces in New Horizon Mall have opened for business since owners were allowed to take possession in May, said Eli Swirsky, president of The Torgan Group of Toronto.

“I love the mall. I think the mall will be fine,” he said in an interview. “I wish it was faster, of course, but every time I go there I’m awed by its size and potential and I think we’ll get there.

“I’m not at all giving up. I think everyone will be happy.”

He said he expects there to be 20 stores open by the end of September but wouldn’t commit to a grand opening date, saying it will be set when a “critical mass” of 80 to 100 stores are open, possibly by year-end but more likely next spring.

The optimistic outlook stands in contrast to the eerily empty glass cubicles and “For Lease” signs in the freshly painted mall located south of the always-crowded CrossIron Mills outlet shopping centre that opened in 2009.

Delaying the grand opening is a good idea given the mall’s deserted shops, said Rami Tawil of Silk Road Importers, a retailer of men’s and women’s undergarments from the Middle East. He moved to Canada from Syria three years ago and is leasing his small space from its owner.

“I think now it’s better if we push it a couple of months because we need more stores here to open,” he said. “We need the people coming to see more stores.”

The New Horizon Mall is modelled on The Torgan Group’s Pacific Mall in the Toronto area that opened about 20 years ago.

https://calgaryherald.com/business/l...remains-upbeat



The New Horizon Mall, photographed on May 3, 2018. JIM WELLS/POSTMEDIA

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

To me it's the zoning and official plan that are the root problem. Specific to the case in London, I don't see any compelling reason why such a vast swath of land needed to be zoned commercial well south of where people actually lived. London already had a glut of commercial property and someone thought it would be great to add a huge amount of new commercial land that wasn't needed.

Once it's in the official plan and the zoning is in place, there's no stopping it.

Comparison between London and Waterloo is interesting. Waterloo has protected its main mall pretty aggressively by kicking up a fuss every time the grocery store tries to move and restricting the types of businesses that can go into big box developments. Not sure if it has had an impact, but the mall seems to be doing better than those in London, which has had a dead mall problem for years.

[ssiguy]

I`ve never understood why these large dying malls like Westmount in London don`t aggressively try to attract residential development at the mall sites. Seeing the parking lots are empty, sell them for a song to developers who can build apartments/condos on site increasing the number of people who are directly attached to the mall.


With such a critical lack of seniors housing it would also be advantageous to promote the sites to senior levels of government. Take parts of the mall and turn them into seniors/student housing who often don`t have cars and would have immediate access to shops and services. The mall would also benefit from the employees spending power and due to selling off {or even giving away} the land/space to developers and governments would also greatly reduce the malls property tax bill. By consolidating the shops into a smaller area and with more immediate shoppers the malls would become much busier and have few if any closed stores and a crowd attracts a crowd.

Cherry Hill Mall in London is an example of how this can work. It only has about 50 stores and has never been a destination mall but always does well due to having high density right at the mall with lots of seniors and students and amenities like a local library branch.

[SignalHillHiker]

One that has did relatively recently (within my adulthood) - Mount Pearl Square, which is exactly on the border between St. John's and Mount Pearl. It was a proper small mall a decade ago, now it's half public service offices, half corporate offices, with a Cinema and a food court.



And to give you a true appreciation of the suburban hellscape that is the transition from St. John's to Mount Pearl... check out these rowhouses across the street. We don't put them on our postcards...

Zoomed out just so you can appreciate the full width of Topsail Road in this area.



There are people who live there, and work across the street, and rarely get anywhere else, and somehow don't commit suicide.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by megadude

So is New Horizon Mall in Calgary already a dead mall?

I haven't been to Pacific Mall in 10 years but I remember it being a zoo in the parking lot. My grandmother used to live a couple minutes drive from there. And I still pass by once a year or so.

Pacific is well located as it's in a densely populated Asian area on the Markham/Scarboro border. It seems this New Horizon is well out of the city meaning it would need to be a destination mall, which I don't picture glorified flea markets being, unlike premium outlets. And this is the same developer as Pacific Mall!

I'm sure this has already been discussed on the Calgary forum but could this mall be dead before it even comes to life? I hope not. I'd genuinely feel bad for the investors of these condo retail units.

I kind of felt bad for a lot of the regular joes who dropped huge deposits on the stupid Trump Tower condo/hotel units in Toronto. A lot got duped by having that name alone, but the lesson is, you can't always buy into the hype and put all your eggs in one basket. At least that building is no longer Trump and is being re-branded The Regis. I think it's mostly full, but have no idea if the original investors found any recourse or salvaged something.


Not much has changed inside the mall since this photograph was taken in May 2018. JIM WELLS / POSTMEDIA


https://calgaryherald.com/business/l...remains-upbeat



The New Horizon Mall, photographed on May 3, 2018. JIM WELLS/POSTMEDIA

Yeah it’s pretty post apocalyptic looking. I checked it out a week ago and only saw one store. The empty, sterile glass cubicles make it look like a prison. I figured it was always destined to become another Eau Claire market but not this soon.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

Yeah it’s pretty post apocalyptic looking. I checked it out a week ago and only saw one store. The empty, sterile glass cubicles make it look like a prison. I figured it was always destined to become another Eau Claire market but not this soon.

It already looks like an airport terminal. Why not just build a runway next door.......