Canadian ethnicity, immigration, housing etc.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Most of the women you see walking around with hijabs and burkas today are the daughters and granddaughters of women who did not dress that way.

There is bona fide religious or cultural influence, people just doing what they think is normal or what they are expected to do, and then there is the self-conscious adoption of minority practices or ersatz versions, e.g. people who were born in the US to American parents but wear brightly coloured African-influenced clothing because they like it or because it signifies something about their ancestry.

There is not necessarily anything wrong with that second category and it might contribute too.

It is weird how this played out but the practice of wearing face coverings or headscarves has dovetailed pretty nicely with leftist rhetoric around oppression. I am thinking of stories like this one, which was about a student union preparing hijab-snatching kits at a university that said there were never any reports of that kind of thing happening before, while one of the student union VPs insists that women in hijabs and frequent victims but are too marginalized to report anything. The same VP got in trouble for ranting about how Canada is a terrible colonial power and systematic oppressor and that everyone should have boycotted the Canada 150th stuff.

The cynical way to view this is that groups often get goodies to counteract the perceived effects of oppression. If you can convince people you are oppressed, you can get a better deal. If you can look like you are always super oppressed, you will get the best societal deal possible (affirmative action, funding so you can research into how you are oppressed, etc.). Another cynical view is that it is kind of strange for immigrants to complain a lot since they chose Canada presumably because it offered the best standard of living for them.

I wonder how this will all turn out. There is some real oppression and there are real problems out there (e.g. First Nations in Canada). But is Canada really the horrible place people say it is, when it has a low crime rate and lets in so many immigrants from all over the world? How far will we be pushed toward thinking this is a horrible place and we must devote all of our attention to special interest groups? Will people snap and push back, will it stay the same, or will this trend just gradually fade as something else becomes popular? I hope we don't end up in a ridiculous world where the only accepted culture is an amalgam of homegrown radical leftism plus foreign fundamentalism!

[MonkeyRonin]

Anecdotal, but it's still kind of telling that the most ardent opponents to the niqab (and even hijab) I know are [secular, liberal] women of Muslim or Middle-Eastern background; while the white liberals are in contrast voraciously "pro"-hijab/niqab (in an attempt to "stand up for the marginalized" at all costs).

It's ironically a pretty funny situation whereby we have secular Muslims and conservative Westerners on the same page; and traditional Muslims and left-wing Westerners largely in agreement on the other side - despite none of these pairs having their actual ideological interests aligned whatsoever.

[GreaterMontréal]

In Quebec, more than 75% of muslims have never set a foot in a mosque.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Pinion

I see niqabs here and there in downtown Vancouver, usually in the summer, which suggests it's tourists.

I live in an Iranian neighbourhood and you'd never see a young woman wearing any sort of veil here. Only a small percentage of seniors.

Many Iranian immigrants to North America are pretty secular.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Pinion

I see niqabs here and there in downtown Vancouver, usually in the summer, which suggests it's tourists.

I live in an Iranian neighbourhood and you'd never see a young woman wearing any sort of veil here. Only a small percentage of seniors.

It depends what you mean by a "veil". Face veils are quite rare in Canada but as has been said hijab headscarves are part of the scenery in most of our cities.

In terms of face veils it's often hard to tell the age of the woman - cause you can't see her face.

In the case of hijabs even if it's not everyone I'd say in Quebec and Ontario the group of wearers tilts fairly heavily towards younger women. And certainly under 40 or 50. You do see older women with hijabs but not that many relative to how many younger ones you see - perhaps it's because Muslims tend to be newer, younger arrivals or younger Canadian-born?

It's also quite common to see women obviously of the same family with some wearing the hijab and others not wearing it at all. Even mothers (no hijab) with daughters (hijab on head).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

Anecdotal, but it's still kind of telling that the most ardent opponents to the niqab (and even hijab) I know are [secular, liberal] women of Muslim or Middle-Eastern background; while the white liberals are in contrast voraciously "pro"-hijab/niqab (in an attempt to "stand up for the marginalized" at all costs).
.

This is not to be snarky, but I am actually quite surprised that given where you live you know that many people who are willing to speak freely against the niqab and hijab.

I mean, I know they exist but given the way the debate has been framed the people who have issues with this stuff (men or women, Muslim or non-Muslim) tend to lie low for fear of being called all sorts of nasty names.

Even if they do exist (and I believe you that they do) they're certainly not very vocal or visible in the Canadian English-language media. With a couple of exceptions of course.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

It's funny that the similarity between the observable widespread 'resistance' of the majority to 'extreme' social conservatives like Ève Torres and Tanya Granic Allen gets lost on people like 1overcosc. I find it amusing, to a degree. (Worrying, somewhat, too.)

This is an interesting way to frame it, although I do think there is a difference. People like Ève Torres if someone bothers to ask them (I will get to that later*) would probably answer that stuff like homosexuality is ok in society but just not for Muslims. And that Muslims simply want to be able to live themselves according to their values, but not necessarily impose them on wider society.

People like Tanya Granic Allen are more likely to want to impose their socially conservative views on society as a whole.

*Of course there is also the question of how certain people who say they're socially conservative (or are assumed to be) get questioned a lot about that, whereas others seem to get a free pass. It seems to be considered bad taste to question Muslim or other religious minority politicians about their moral values, but it's perfectly OK to grill Christian politicians about them.

It's not really a question of social conservatism, but just look at how journalists were lambasted for allegedly being racist when they quizzed Jagmeet Singh on the issue of Sikh separatist terrorism...

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

It's ironically a pretty funny situation whereby we have secular Muslims and conservative Westerners on the same page; and traditional Muslims and left-wing Westerners largely in agreement on the other side - despite none of these pairs having their actual ideological interests aligned whatsoever.

Ah yes. In particular, the activist gay community's strong support for the acceptance into Canadian society and even officialdom of some of the most anti-progressive Muslim tenets is very... umm... "touching".

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

Another cynical view is that it is kind of strange for immigrants to complain a lot since they chose Canada presumably because it offered the best standard of living for them.

I totally agree but in the interest of accuracy that crazy student at Dal is actually born in Halifax so she did not choose to come to Canada. One can assume though that her parents did, and thought Canada would be a good place.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

There is bona fide religious or cultural influence, people just doing what they think is normal or what they are expected to do, and then there is the self-conscious adoption of minority practices or ersatz versions, e.g. people who were born in the US to American parents but wear brightly coloured African-influenced clothing because they like it or because it signifies something about their ancestry.

There is not necessarily anything wrong with that second category and it might contribute too.

It is weird how this played out but the practice of wearing face coverings or headscarves has dovetailed pretty nicely with leftist rhetoric around oppression. I am thinking of stories like this one, which was about a student union preparing hijab-snatching kits at a university that said there were never any reports of that kind of thing happening before, while one of the student union VPs insists that women in hijabs and frequent victims but are too marginalized to report anything. The same VP got in trouble for ranting about how Canada is a terrible colonial power and systematic oppressor and that everyone should have boycotted the Canada 150th stuff.

The cynical way to view this is that groups often get goodies to counteract the perceived effects of oppression. If you can convince people you are oppressed, you can get a better deal. If you can look like you are always super oppressed, you will get the best societal deal possible (affirmative action, funding so you can research into how you are oppressed, etc.). Another cynical view is that it is kind of strange for immigrants to complain a lot since they chose Canada presumably because it offered the best standard of living for them.

I wonder how this will all turn out. There is some real oppression and there are real problems out there (e.g. First Nations in Canada). But is Canada really the horrible place people say it is, when it has a low crime rate and lets in so many immigrants from all over the world? How far will we be pushed toward thinking this is a horrible place and we must devote all of our attention to special interest groups? Will people snap and push back, will it stay the same, or will this trend just gradually fade as something else becomes popular? I hope we don't end up in a ridiculous world where the only accepted culture is an amalgam of homegrown radical leftism plus foreign fundamentalism!

Great post. I see a lot of the same stuff. That last line is a great one.

Not that I agree with either of them but I don't get why the fact women can't be Catholic priests or that some Christians want creationism taught to their kids is more scandalous that some other stuff we're increasingly being asked to embrace, or at least turn a blind eye to.

I mean, if under an alternate history scenario the Catholic church had allowed female priests all along, and all of sudden decided based on some scripture someone just found in 2018 that henceforth only men could be priests, would we have all these people going to the wall to defend the religious freedom of Catholics who want to do this and go against the equality of the sexes?

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I totally agree but in the interest of accuracy that crazy student at Dal is actually born in Halifax so she did not choose to come to Canada. One can assume though that her parents did, and thought Canada would be a good place.

That also raises the question of whether there's a difference in acceptability of criticism of a society from someone who voluntarily joined that society versus someone critiquing the society they were born into.

On the one hand, the idea of "an outsider telling us long-timers how to run things or imposing their outside standards on us" is regularly seen as annoying and frustrating (not just in terms of immigration, think of locals and "transplants" or gentrification debates). On the other hand, there's also the argument that outsiders or newcomers to a society have viewpoints that can be insightful, including critiquing flaws that locals overlook or take for granted. But then, when is it that the "outsider" becomes an "insider" and has a stake in how the society is run?

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I totally agree but in the interest of accuracy that crazy student at Dal is actually born in Halifax so she did not choose to come to Canada. One can assume though that her parents did, and thought Canada would be a good place.

I don't think it matters much to my point. But I will clarify that didn't mean this in the sense that immigrants chose Canada so they have to shut up about it, and I don't think this country is sacred or have any problem with fair criticism. I simply meant that Canada must be an okay society, or one of the better ones, if so many people are coming here.

If the norm around Dal were really for Muslim women to get attacked and spat on as the student suggested you'd think that would have a negative impact on migration patterns, or at least enrollment. Minorities tend to leave areas where they are mistreated. It also seems unlikely that an anti-Muslim student body would elect multiple student union representatives with Middle Eastern sounding names.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

I don't think it matters much to my point. But I will clarify that didn't mean this in the sense that immigrants chose Canada so they have to shut up about it, and I don't think this country is sacred or have any problem with fair criticism. I simply meant that Canada must be an okay society, or one of the better ones, if so many people are coming here.

If the norm around Dal were really for Muslim women to get attacked and spat on as the student suggested you'd think that would have a negative impact on migration patterns, or at least enrollment.

I don't think it compromises your broader argument either. But I do find that the fact that a lot of the most militant people are in fact Canadian-born does embolden them in their struggle.

It also raises the question of what is Canadian? The person or his or her values?

And do someone's values or practices (religious or otherwise) become automatically "Canadian" just because the person who has them happens to be Canadian or has become Canadian.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I don't think it compromises your broader argument either. But I do find that the fact that a lot of the most militant people are in fact Canadian-born does embolden them in their struggle.

They're also often quite privileged. The reality is that ultra poor oppressed people rarely get much of a platform to pontificate from. They are usually busy working hard to provide for themselves and their family.

I can only speculate about psychological motivations but I think the notion of being part of an oppressed minority is seductive to a lot of people. It allows them to flatter themselves by taking greater credit for their success. It is not impressive to be raised with a silver spoon, get a degree when your parents are paying for everything, etc. But it can be made to seem impressive if instead of your privilege you focus on a backdrop of oppression or handicaps that you had to overcome.

When people talk about their achievements, "I had to fight through X, Y, Z" is no less common in my experience than "I achieved a statistically mediocre outcome given my parents' level of wealth". But statistically speaking the hard workers who rise above their station are the rare ones.

The same reasoning is psychologically attractive if you are unsuccessful too. You can say that the people who became more successful had more privilege, and that you would have done even better than them under similar circumstances.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

I can only speculate about psychological motivations but I think the notion of being part of an oppressed minority is seductive to a lot of people. .

That's kind of in the air du temps or zeitgeist.

In the case of Muslims things also get a boost from those global trends that I was talking about.

Islam is unquestionably the most aggressively and successfully expansionist religion in the world at the moment, and those who are behind this aren't usually pushing the more moderate variants of their religion.

[Capsicum]

I think Canadian and American Muslims are actually quite a bit more socially left wing than European Muslims and there isn't as much of an issue with "assimilation" (not to say there's no problems but there isn't any evidence that the next generation is getting more conservative, on average, rather than becoming more like North American young people in general).

American Muslims of the younger generation are actually becoming quite left wing, even on social issues.

https://www.cnn.com/2017/07/26/us/pe...vey/index.html

"But the study's most significant findings may be religious and social, not political.
In 2007, just 27% of American Muslims said society should approve of homosexuality. This year, more than half (52%) said the same, a leap that surprised even scholars who study Islam in America. Likewise, 10 years ago, 57% of American Muslims said there is more than one way to interpret Islamic teachings. In 2017, 64% agreed.
American Muslims were also slightly more likely to identify as politically liberal (30% now vs. 24% in 2007). Nearly two-thirds identify as Democrats and a similar number believe in a bigger government that provides a host of services.

Asked about the essentials of the faith, an overwhelming percentage of Muslims, like Christians, said believing in God was most important. But issues like working for social justice (69%) and protecting the environment (62%) also scored high in the list of essentials for American Muslims.

There's some debate among scholars about whether American Muslims' increasing liberalism on issues like homosexuality is the result of recent immigrants' assimilation to mainstream American values or the rise of native-born millennials, who, like their non-Muslim peers, are more tolerant of the LGBT community.

But while millennial Muslims are more likely than foreign-born Muslims to say homosexuality should be accepted (60% vs. 49%), both groups saw an increase of more than 20 percentage points in the last decade, Pew found."

http://www.pewforum.org/2017/07/26/p...-social-views/

Perhaps Canada might be different but I wouldn't think so.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

I think Canadian and American Muslims are actually quite a bit more socially left wing than European Muslims and there isn't as much of an issue with "assimilation" (not to say there's no problems but there isn't any evidence that the next generation is getting more conservative, on average, rather than becoming more like North American young people in general).

American Muslims of the younger generation are actually becoming quite left wing, even on social issues.

https://www.cnn.com/2017/07/26/us/pe...vey/index.html

"But the study's most significant findings may be religious and social, not political.
In 2007, just 27% of American Muslims said society should approve of homosexuality. This year, more than half (52%) said the same, a leap that surprised even scholars who study Islam in America. Likewise, 10 years ago, 57% of American Muslims said there is more than one way to interpret Islamic teachings. In 2017, 64% agreed.
American Muslims were also slightly more likely to identify as politically liberal (30% now vs. 24% in 2007). Nearly two-thirds identify as Democrats and a similar number believe in a bigger government that provides a host of services.

Asked about the essentials of the faith, an overwhelming percentage of Muslims, like Christians, said believing in God was most important. But issues like working for social justice (69%) and protecting the environment (62%) also scored high in the list of essentials for American Muslims.

There's some debate among scholars about whether American Muslims' increasing liberalism on issues like homosexuality is the result of recent immigrants' assimilation to mainstream American values or the rise of native-born millennials, who, like their non-Muslim peers, are more tolerant of the LGBT community.

But while millennial Muslims are more likely than foreign-born Muslims to say homosexuality should be accepted (60% vs. 49%), both groups saw an increase of more than 20 percentage points in the last decade, Pew found."

http://www.pewforum.org/2017/07/26/p...-social-views/

Perhaps Canada might be different but I wouldn't think so.

My views on that would tend to be inconclusive.

I have Muslim friends in their 40s with kids in their late teens or early 20s who were born here and who are more religious than their parents. Including daughters who wear hijabs even though their mom never has.

Read into this what you wish:

http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/...ation-protests

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opin...article585747/

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/enviro...rvey-1.3551465

[Capsicum]

I don't think immigrant social conservatism persists very long in North America -- the North American culture is very appealing, and an attractive culture to "assimilate" into.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Acajack

My views on that would tend to be inconclusive.

I have Muslim friends in their 40s with kids in their late teens or early 20s who were born here and who are more religious than their parents. Including daughters who wear hijabs even though their mom never has.

Read into this what you wish:

http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/...ation-protests

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opin...article585747/

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/enviro...rvey-1.3551465

If that's true, it'd be odd that Canadian Muslims are getting more conservative in the younger generation (in contrast to the American survey stats in my previous post), while American Muslims are getting more liberal.

In the article you mention, there's discussion about how some young Canadian Muslims are getting radicalized because they feel like they "don't belong" in Canadian society and stigmatization leads them to cling stronger to a religious identity. But if that's the case, shouldn't that be the case for the US too, since outwardly at least the impression is that there's more stigmatization to being a young Muslim stateside growing up post 9/11?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

I don't think immigrant social conservatism persists very long in North America -- the North American culture is very appealing, and an attractive culture to "assimilate" into.

That's almost always been my observation as well.

There is of course the example cited before where Canadian-born kids (re-)embrace the culture of their parents or even grandparents or great grandparents. But this rarely in my experience has had an important social conservatism dimension.

That's why the Muslim community's recent evolution could be a bit different.