The United States of Europe

[SHiRO]

Originally Posted by The Dear Leader

Again, your typical condescending attitude.

Funny how it always rears its ugly head when confronted with the typical ignorance of the usual suspects...(not meaning you but rather the influx of SSC "Europeans" not even living in Europe or outside of the EU).

What Europe is lacking, and what the US has, is a sense of nationhood. Regardless of whether you're a redneck hick, or a gay New Yorker, you consider yourself to be an American and you're usually proud of that. I don't see what I have in common with hardcore Catholic Poles or Sicilian mobsters. I don't understand their language or share their values.

Who cares about nationhood? Europe shares a lot that can act as a substitute of "nationhood". Things that go deeper then a flag or an anthem and this feeling is only growing (sad you STILL can't see this happening).
You have about as much in common with a hardcore catholic Pole as a liberal American urbanite has with a hardcore religious Kentuckian..., or a Mormon..., or an Amish person.
On the whole, there is a very much higher % of people in Europe who shares the same values with you then the % of people in the US who share values with the New York liberal. Weak argument...

And we don't have a shared history or culture either. Parts of Europe were ruled by the Ottoman Empire for centuries. What sort of history does Germany share with a place like Bulgaria?

The Ottoman Empire and the struggle against it itself is part of European history!!! Just like the Roman Empire having dominion over virtually all of Europe and INFLUENCING everything that came after it is. Christianity? The World Wars? There are millions of connections between all the European countries which together amount to a very firmly established shared history.

As I said in another thread on SSC, that country might as well be located in southeast Asia (don't mean this in a derogatory way). I feel like Germany has much more in common with non-European countries like Canada or the US than with Bulgaria or other Balkan states.

Be a sport and let's start with the countries which are established EU members OK? It all depends. I put it too you that you have much more in common with a Belgrade urbanite then you have with a Canadian living in rural Alberta.

So please feel free to point out the particular similarities that Germans and, say, Montenegrins or Bulgarians share (similarities which we don't share with Americans or Canadians).

How good you chose just about the two furthest poles possible. With one of those "poles" not even being in the EU...
But I'll play. For starters, Germany has a lot of immigrants from exactely that region. A lot of shared history too. Not too long ago the D mark was the de facto currency in Montenegro, now the Euro is. German is the most spoken foreign language there. The economic connections are already plentyfull (and neither Montenegro nor Bulgaria is part of the EU yet). What cars do you see in the streets in Sofia? What clothes do people wear? What is their favourite sport? What is Europe's nr 1 favourite snackfood (hint: it's not a hamburger).
Look at the laws in Germany and Bulgaria and compare those laws to the laws in the US. Which one is the odd one out?
I could go on for pages, but I fear it is of no use. You will just use the fact that the countries in question countries speak different languages (hasn't stopped India from being a nation) or that there are also a lot of similarities between western Europe and other western countries as "proof"...

[downtown_meltdown]

Originally Posted by SHiRO

[...]
Now more then ever, people who continue to deny the existance of a shared European culture need to get out more...

Yes there is such a thing as a European culture. There was such a thing long time before the firstlings of the EU formed.

[SHiRO]

Originally Posted by Ciekawski

All good points. There is a similarity when it comes to the way of life in Europe - caffee shops, narrow streets, old architecture, use of public transportation (buses, trains). It is different from what you could find on average in any other continent but there is no such thing as a "shared European culture".

Haven't you guys heard SSC is up again?

Don't you find it funny how your statement obviously contradicts itself?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_Europe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europeanisation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_integration
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europeanism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan-European_identity

[Ciekawski]

Originally Posted by SHiRO

Don't you find it funny how your statement obviously contradicts itself?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_Europe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europeanisation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_integration
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europeanism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan-European_identity

How so ? These links only prove I was correct. All they talk about are vague commonalities and some shared aspects of history and values. That's a far cry from "European culture". European-like values are shared in Australia or Canada, historical links are greater between the UK and Canada/Australia or between France and Quebec province than between say Germany and Bulgaria, Finland and Portugal or Ireland and Bosnia.

About the only thing they came up with was Italo Disco - quite a sad argument (yes It was big in Europe and nowhere else ).

[The Dear Leader]

Originally Posted by SHiRO

The Ottoman Empire and the struggle against it itself is part of European history!!! Just like the Roman Empire having dominion over virtually all of Europe and INFLUENCING everything that came after it is. Christianity? The World Wars? There are millions of connections between all the European countries which together amount to a very firmly established shared history.

So according to this logic all of humanity has a shared history. African countries fought against French and British colonial forces (just like Germany fought these two countries in both WWs). Doesn't mean though that I somehow feel connected to them.

The US and Canada are firmly Christian countries as well. Again, I fail to see how we can have a set of values that can be definied as specifically European. You either look at regional values (not even national ones) or you use a broader defintion which includes all of the western world (with the exception of Japan perhaps).

Originally Posted by Shrio

Be a sport and let's start with the countries which are established EU members OK? It all depends. I put it too you that you have much more in common with a Belgrade urbanite then you have with a Canadian living in rural Alberta.

That may be the case but I still think I have even more in common with a suburbanite living in the NJ-NY-CT Tri-State-Area.

Originally Posted by Shiro

But I'll play. For starters, Germany has a lot of immigrants from exactely that region. A lot of shared history too. Not too long ago the D mark was the de facto currency in Montenegro, now the Euro is.

The dollar is the more or less official currency in a # of countries all around the world. That criterion doesn't hold much weight IMO.

Originally Posted by Shiro

What cars do you see in the streets in Sofia? What clothes do people wear? What is their favourite sport? What is Europe's nr 1 favourite snackfood (hint: it's not a hamburger).

People wear the same clothes all over the western world, they also more or less drive the same cars. Too be brutally honest though, the brands that people wear and the cars they drive don't really mean much to me. Just because a Polish homophobe drives a Golf doesn't mean that we're somehow connected.

Originally Posted by Shiro

Look at the laws in Germany and Bulgaria and compare those laws to the laws in the US. Which one is the odd one out?

Don't know, you tell me. All I know is that laws don't mean too much to some Bulgarians

[Grumpy]

Originally Posted by SHiRO

Now more then ever, people who continue to deny the existance of a shared European culture need to get out more...

Are people who are not EU minded allowed to have a negative opinion ?
I've seen many places and spoken to many people but then again people do have different opinions.
Often you scare me with your vision on the EU but I respect that, please accept mine aswell thank you.

btw : do you want the EU to become a country like the USA ?

[downtown_meltdown]

Let's put things into perspective. Most European (endemic to the territory of the continent Europe) cultures differ much more from the culture of the native Americans of the tribe Navajo, or the Incas, than from one another. Of course, there are diffrences, sometimes hudge, but there are also some strong similarities and ties. Keeping in mind, the Roman Empire, The Ottoman Empire, Byzantium, Christianity, etc., there are still diffrent cultures, but more closely interwoven, than the German culture is with the tribes of North America, no matter how much sauerkraut they'd eat, or how much homosexuality they'd introduce into their paw waw's.

[SHiRO]

Originally Posted by Ciekawski

How so ? These links only prove I was correct. All they talk about are vague commonalities and some shared aspects of history and values. That's a far cry from "European culture". European-like values are shared in Australia or Canada, historical links are greater between the UK and Canada/Australia or between France and Quebec province than between say Germany and Bulgaria, Finland and Portugal or Ireland and Bosnia.

About the only thing they came up with was Italo Disco - quite a sad argument (yes It was big in Europe and nowhere else ).

You guys are having a laugh right? I mean you can't be serious!
You yourself are using an implied form of European cohesion and you are not even consiously aware of using it? European-like values. You yourself said it, now cut the crap!

if you really suggest the UK has more connections to Canada then it does to continental Europe or France has more to Quebec I really suggest you pick up a history book and learn to look past the obvious in the mean time.

No use in arguing with people who don't want to know the thruth.

I bet you don't even live in Europe...

[SHiRO]

Originally Posted by The Dear Leader

So according to this logic all of humanity has a shared history. African countries fought against French and British colonial forces (just like Germany fought these two countries in both WWs). Doesn't mean though that I somehow feel connected to them.

What do you want me to say to such warped comparisons? This has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.
European countries collectively fought against the Ottomans (even before there was such a thing as a "nation state") and before the Ottoman Empire Europeans went on crusades collectively. This is all shared history, just like much of what came before and what came after. Being competitors in the colonial game is more shared history.
What African "countries" fought against Brits or French? There was no such thing...

The US and Canada are firmly Christian countries as well. Again, I fail to see how we can have a set of values that can be definied as specifically European. You either look at regional values (not even national ones) or you use a broader defintion which includes all of the western world (with the exception of Japan perhaps).

The US and Canada are christian countries because THEY ARE FORMER COLONIES of christian Europe. They did not experience christianisation and reformation just like Europe did however. Does history not exist for you or something? "Proving" to me that the US and Canada has similarities with Europe does nothing in disproving of European culture.

That may be the case but I still think I have even more in common with a suburbanite living in the NJ-NY-CT Tri-State-Area.

Sure...Then you sir are the odd one out in European culture and not the other way around.

The dollar is the more or less official currency in a # of countries all around the world. That criterion doesn't hold much weight IMO.

Then why wasn't the dollar the de facto currency in Montenegro?

People wear the same clothes all over the western world, they also more or less drive the same cars. Too be brutally honest though, the brands that people wear and the cars they drive don't really mean much to me. Just because a Polish homophobe drives a Golf doesn't mean that we're somehow connected.

Really? Then you should take a stroll through a European shopping street more often and then visit an American mall. Sure, there are some European chains which are succesfull in the US (Zara, H&M),but overall the stores are very different. In Europe these stores are commonplace and everyone from Bulgaria to Finland shops there.
While you are there also take a good look at the cars. Everyone with eyes quickly realises that in Berlin and Sofia you see Mercedes, Volkswagen and other European brands and in the US you see (surprise! surprise!) American types and brands. Do these facts mean much by themselves? Not really, but they all contribute to a common culture.
Also, I bet the US has more homophobes then Poland.

Don't know, you tell me. All I know is that laws don't mean too much to some Bulgarians

You do know and it is time you stop pretending and start admitting. Bulgaria has or is going to have the exact same laws that are required from any other EU country and all the other laws there are going to be more in line with the rest of Europe also. The US has many many laws totally out of step, I even dare say alien to German law.

[SHiRO]

Originally Posted by Grumpy

Are people who are not EU minded allowed to have a negative opinion ?
I've seen many places and spoken to many people but then again people do have different opinions.
Often you scare me with your vision on the EU but I respect that, please accept mine aswell thank you.

Of course people are allowed to have a negative opinion. People shouldn't however deny facts or speak misthruths and then expect to get away with it.

btw : do you want the EU to become a country like the USA ?

No.

[Metropolitan]

Sometimes I must confess that I'm still surprised about how French people are centered on themselves. And I know what I'm talking about since I'm French by myself.

Granted, Americans are also very self-centered, but at least they have as an excuse to live in a relatively large country, isolated by oceans, and dominating its continent.

On the other side, France is a small village of what, 60 million people, in the middle of a continent of something like 800 million people which is itself located right beside Asia, the Middle East and Africa. To put it in other words, that's totally ridiculous and completely out of rationality. France is simply totally dependent on its neighbours, like any country in Europe.

What's the most insane is probably the French ceremonial TV news of 8pm. 12 million people are watching everyday since 20 years the same guy on the same channel telling them about jellyfishes on a French beach instead of nuclear developments in Iran. Any French person having seen news in other countries will understand what I mean.

It's probably because French people are so self-centered that they are totally unable to understand today's world.

[pricemazda]

I think you are being a bit harsh on your countrymen. But if you want a more European news, watch Euronews.

What is the top story on today's news in France?

On British news today the top story is that the European Commission is to give the green light to Romania and Bulgaria to join the EU.

[one very bored guy]

Originally Posted by The Dear Leader

Youth unemployment is at 25% in Sweden.

Anyway, we've been thru this discussion a million times. All westerners share certain similarities but the differences between a "regular" Spaniard and a regular Finn are bigger than the differences between a Texan and a Pennsylvanian (eg).

Interesting. Name 10 major differences between a young typical person (aged 18-30) growing up in barcelona and a young typical person (aged 18-30) growing up in Stockholm.

[pricemazda]

But what kampflamm didn't mention is Sweden also has a 5% growth rate

[The Dear Leader]

Originally Posted by SHiRO

What African "countries" fought against Brits or French? There was no such thing...

Algeria...and various other struggles for independence.

The US and Canada are christian countries because THEY ARE FORMER COLONIES of christian Europe. They did not experience christianisation and reformation just like Europe did however. Does history not exist for you or something? "Proving" to me that the US and Canada has similarities with Europe does nothing in disproving of European culture.

But that's the thing. There's western culture and then there are regional cultures (even here in Germany the north is pretty different from the staunchly Catholic south). Who cares were they got their culture from, fact of the matter is that you can't just draw a line and say "oh, that's specifically European, all other continents are excluded." I wrote this in a previous post but please tell me which sort of values Germany and Bulgaria share, values which we don't share with Canada or the US.

Originally Posted by Shiro

Sure...Then you sir are the odd one out in European culture and not the other way around.

Again, I don't think so. The suburbanite from Belgrade speaks a language I don't understand and probably has a set of values that differes a lot from mine. Most Germans probably agree with me since they're dead set against Serbian EU membership.

Originally Posted by Shiro

Really? Then you should take a stroll through a European shopping street more often and then visit an American mall. Sure, there are some European chains which are succesfull in the US (Zara, H&M),but overall the stores are very different. In Europe these stores are commonplace and everyone from Bulgaria to Finland shops there.
While you are there also take a good look at the cars. Everyone with eyes quickly realises that in Berlin and Sofia you see Mercedes, Volkswagen and other European brands and in the US you see (surprise! surprise!) American types and brands. Do these facts mean much by themselves? Not really, but they all contribute to a common culture.

As I've said before, cars and clothing do not mean that much to me, but even in this scenario there's neither a pan-European taste nor are you able to exclude NA from it. People wear American brands just like Americans wear European brands. And there were plenty of stores in France, Belgium and other countries that I've never seen in Germany. I also don't get a hard on just because I've spotted a German store somewhere in Italy.

[The Dear Leader]

Originally Posted by one very bored guy

Interesting. Name 10 major differences between a young typical person (aged 18-30) growing up in barcelona and a young typical person (aged 18-30) growing up in Stockholm.

All I need to name is 1...language.

[The Dear Leader]

Originally Posted by pricemazda

But what kampflamm didn't mention is Sweden also has a 5% growth rate

I prefer Denmark's model, at least they're not hiding their unemployment rate.

[The Dear Leader]

Originally Posted by pricemazda

I think you are being a bit harsh on your countrymen. But if you want a more European news, watch Euronews.

What is the top story on today's news in France?

On British news today the top story is that the European Commission is to give the green light to Romania and Bulgaria to join the EU.

I don't think the French are particularly self centered. The #1 story on German news is the ongoing debate over health care reforms within the Grand Coalition, #2 is the Transrapid accident.

[Exarchus]

Originally Posted by pricemazda

What is the top story on today's news in France?

Top news on my web starting page:

http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,...-816874,0.html

Second news:

http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,...-816848,0.html

Third one:

http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,...-754471,0.html

Forth one:

http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,...-775737,0.html

[Exarchus]

@Metropolitan

I suggest you to read newspaper like Pravda, The Sun or Der Bild.

http://www.bild.t-online.de/
http://www.thesun.co.uk/
http://english.pravda.ru/

If you believe the French are an exeption in Europe.