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  #13021  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2018, 5:44 PM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
I was actually thinking the parallels between residential schools and, say, us Westerners stepping in to kick out the Taliban and establish schools for little Afghan girls, are pretty striking. "We the enlightened" have a duty to go out there and make sure things over there start to happen our way; those savages can't be left to their own devices, and a proper education the way we think is best for them is what we'll be giving them (they will be thankful later).
In this area at the moment, there are lots of people who are working on what you could call very broadly "indigenous files". (Most of these people are non-indigenous, but anyway...)

One of the hottest topics is residential schools and a dead cat I sometimes like to throw on the table when I am with them is that most of the people who devised the residential schools system actually had good intentions. They honestly thought they were acting in the best interests of those kids - by giving them an education at a level they could never have obtained in their own communities. They thought they were doing them a favour.

Today we recognize that this program was ill-advised and amounted to what was basically a cultural genocide, of course.

But many of them would probably be shocked that today their names are being dragged through the mud for this.

And BTW, none of them I am sure ever had in mind the possibility that young aboriginals could fall prey to sexual and physical abusers in the ranks of the clergy and other people who worked in those schools.

It's quite tragic how naive so many of them were.

Of course, many people in the system turned a blind eye to the abuse when abuse started to happen - and for this they are certainly guilty and deserve scorn.
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Last edited by Acajack; Apr 5, 2018 at 8:10 PM.
     
     
  #13022  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2018, 5:47 PM
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“White privelige” in modern times has more to do wiith driving a nice car and not being made to feel like you’re out of place, or not having to prove that you’re one of the “good ones”.
Having lived in an Asian country before as a white person when I was in my twenties, I know exactly what that's like. Not the nice car part, but being prejudged by many people as being "a big, hairy, horny foreigner intent on wreaking drunken havoc and stealing our women." Not all people said things like that to me or about me, and I certainly got some special treatment just for being a white foreigner (and after the initial novelty that quickly becomes extremely uncomfortable and unwelcome as well), but still, as a young white guy you are branded with certain stereotypes when you live there.

Because, uh, to be honest, a decently large portion of Western men living in Asian cities are doing the very things that the locals suspect them of doing.

If "white privilege" consists of a universally standard ingroup/outgroup dynamic, being that white Europeans have always been the largest demographic in every Western country, what can a white person possibly do about it? Turn to the South Asian in the car next to you at a traffic stop, gesture for him or her to roll down the window, and verbally provide reassurance that you don't see him or her as being unworthy of driving that nice car? Or just train yourself not to look at minorities in the absent-minded way you would look at anyone else?

I don't see a way forward with the current SJW mania for highlighting "white privilege" at every turn. If the worst that a person of colour has to deal with in his or her daily life is the nagging suspicion that people are looking at him or her differently than they would white people, well...I don't see any way of practically resolving that issue.

Everything I've seen to "address" this issue has been completely idiotic and even disturbing. The conservative right/alt-right are wrong on most issues, but not everything. They're not wrong when they keep harping on about the fact that the social engineering side of the left has spun wildly out of control.
     
     
  #13023  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2018, 8:25 PM
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Originally Posted by rousseau View Post

Everything I've seen to "address" this issue has been completely idiotic and even disturbing. The conservative right/alt-right are wrong on most issues, but not everything. They're not wrong when they keep harping on about the fact that the social engineering side of the left has spun wildly out of control.
It's actually quite worrisome for me to see the movement that has given us the lion's share of what I value most about western advanced societies, committing a kind of hari-kiri.
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  #13024  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2018, 8:25 PM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
I was actually thinking the parallels between residential schools and, say, us Westerners stepping in to kick out the Taliban and establish schools for little Afghan girls, are pretty striking. "We the enlightened" have a duty to go out there and make sure things over there start to happen our way; those savages can't be left to their own devices, and a proper education the way we think is best for them is what we'll be giving them (they will be thankful later).
Um, wasn't the whole thing with the Taliban in Afghanistan that girls weren't allowed to go to school?
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  #13025  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2018, 9:19 PM
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It's kind of interesting that certain people here seem to think that a few shrill voices on the internet actually represent contemporary academic discourse on an issue. It honestly comes across just as bad as the "SJW" boogyman (again, literally a fraction of the population given voice by the wonders of the internet).
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  #13026  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2018, 9:51 PM
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Tim Horton’s reputation plummets in new survey:

https://globalnews.ca/news/4124961/t...tation-survey/

The only brand that lost more popularity was Sears Canada lol! It saddens me that the likes of Dollarama, Shopper’s and Canadian Tire are still in the top tier of Canadian brands though.
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  #13027  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2018, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by niwell View Post
It's kind of interesting that certain people here seem to think that a few shrill voices on the internet actually represent contemporary academic discourse on an issue. It honestly comes across just as bad as the "SJW" boogyman (again, literally a fraction of the population given voice by the wonders of the internet).
No kidding. All it took for this ranting circle jerk to throw the thread off the rails was a description of something “white trash”. Dr.Awesomesauce chimed in with his false outrage setting up a strawman argument about me mocking the Fords for being white. Then the pileup began starting with the persecution of white men and culminating in lio’s argument that allowing girls to go to school in Afghanistan (like they did before the Taliban took over) is tantamount to re-enacting residential schools overseas. The ridiculousness of arguments on SSP lately has reached a fever pitch. Suiting I guess that it all took place in the Ugly Canada thread.
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Last edited by O-tacular; Apr 5, 2018 at 10:13 PM.
     
     
  #13028  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2018, 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by O-tacular View Post
Um, wasn't the whole thing with the Taliban in Afghanistan that girls weren't allowed to go to school?
The parallels are still very much there: if we leave the "savages" alone, to choose to educate their children as they see fit, from our point of view of civilized Westerners we believe the results will be so poor that we feel it's our duty to step in somewhat unasked, and make sure these children get educated "the right way" even if that goes against local traditions and customs.
     
     
  #13029  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2018, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
The parallels are still very much there: if we leave the "savages" alone, to choose to educate their children as they see fit, from our point of view of civilized Westerners we believe the results will be so poor that we feel it's our duty to step in somewhat unasked, and make sure these children get educated "the right way" even if that goes against local traditions and customs.
Your argument ignores the fact that before the Taliban, girls went to school in Afghanistan. It was only when they took over that girls were taken out of schools and their education system went to shit. You could make the argument that the US never should have propped up the Taliban in the Cold War. At this point though they are just righting a wrong.
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Last edited by O-tacular; Apr 5, 2018 at 10:33 PM.
     
     
  #13030  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2018, 10:25 PM
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LOL The Prime Directive doesn't apply to humans.

I don't have any problems interfering if it's for the best intentions. Of course, it's rarely for the best intentions. There's always some sort of financial gain involved. With that said, the Taliban,etc. are straight out of the Dark Ages so fuck... anything the rest of us do no matter what our intentions is better than what it is now.
     
     
  #13031  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2018, 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted by O-tacular View Post
your argument ignores the fact that before the Taliban, girls went to school in Afghanistan. It was only when they took over in the cold war that girls were taken out of school and their education system went to shit.
And you're again managing to miss the point. Who are you to decide that their education system is shit? With that attitude, a century ago I'm quite sure you'd have been exactly the type of person who'd have deemed Canadian First Nations' education systems to be shit, and be convinced we have to do something about it.....
     
     
  #13032  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2018, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
The parallels are still very much there: if we leave the "savages" alone, to choose to educate their children as they see fit, from our point of view of civilized Westerners we believe the results will be so poor that we feel it's our duty to step in somewhat unasked, and make sure these children get educated "the right way" even if that goes against local traditions and customs.
I don't think it's fair to say the Taliban was the natural order of things in Afghanistan and that the U.S. disrupted the will of the majority. Afghanistan has a tumultuous history of warring tribes stretching back thousands of years, but in the 1970's it was approaching a level of progressiveness that wouldn't have looked out of place in Western Europe.



Kabul university in 1970

The Taliban emerged from the Mujahideen, who the U.S. was too happy to support with cash and military equipment when their interests were aligned against the Russians. When that threat dissipated, the now-powerful fundamentalists were free to take over. How do you decide if this evolving culture in the 70's, or the fiery wraith of the Taliban is the natural state of a soveriegn nation?
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Last edited by suburbanite; Apr 5, 2018 at 11:09 PM.
     
     
  #13033  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2018, 11:08 PM
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I don't think it's fair to say the Taliban was the natural order of things in Afghanistan...
I'm aware of all this, but on the other hand I also don't think it's fair to act like having Sunni fundamentalists in charge is that much of an unnatural situation either.

(FYI, Iran evolved along a similar path since the 1970s as well...)

And my point still stands: if they happen to be in charge at a given point in time, who are we to insist that we know better than them what's good for their country? Seems to me that this attitude of looking at a foreign country half a world away and declaring their homegrown education system to be shit is precisely the kind of thinking that gave us residential schools.
     
     
  #13034  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2018, 11:18 PM
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And my point still stands: if they happen to be in charge at a given point in time, who are we to insist that we know better than them what's good for their country? Seems to me that this attitude of looking at a foreign country half a world away and declaring their homegrown education system to be shit is precisely the kind of thinking that gave us residential schools.
The point is they were only in charge because of foreign intervention in the first place. People on that side of the argument would justify as righting a previous wrong, even though that obviously was not the Americans primary consideration.

To go back to the previous example, it would be like the U.S. invading Canada in 1900 and disbanding the residential schools because they believe them to be archaic. Then someone claims it was wrong for the U.S. to do so because they disrupted the natural state of education for Native Americans.
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  #13035  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2018, 11:45 PM
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The point is they were only in charge because of foreign intervention in the first place.
I'm not sure I'd be ready to say that. The pendulum swinging too far into Westernity in the '70s and producing a fundamentalist revolution as a reaction was shown to be possible without American intervention.

Moreover, one could probably suggest that without any Soviet intervention, American intervention wouldn't have been needed in the first place. It's plausible that the mujahideen could have managed to overthrow the local communist government (which had themselves seized power via a coup anyway) had the two major powers refrained from intervening.

Regardless, even then - the basic situation remains the same: there's a government in charge somewhere and we feel that they're not doing things right for the children of their country (by our standards). Should we step in?

And regarding your analogy, I'd say that yes, anyone who'd think it'd have been okay for Americans to invade Canada and dismantle the residential school system is subscribing to the same school of thought that produced the residential schools, IMO. You look at your neighbor, decide he's doing it wrong in your opinion, you know better so you step in uninvited and fix things for him, for his own good (and he'll thank you later).
     
     
  #13036  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2018, 12:08 AM
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... did you just accuse me off self-diagnosing a lack of self-awareness?

in all seriousness though, the tone of many of your post screams that you are still suffering some severe PTSD.. I sincerely hope you are getting the help that you need

if you haven't already, a broadcast/social media detox is a great start. and perhaps find more positive things to focus on
I don't know anything about you, but the individual in your avatar suffers from the most acute case of anosognosia I have ever seen. So, yes, if you're a fan, as it appears, there is tremendous, nay yuge, irony in your posting a link to the clinical definition of the absence of self-awareness.
     
     
  #13037  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2018, 12:23 AM
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circle jerk
That's all this thread seems to be, mainly with you and molsonex feeding off each other
     
     
  #13038  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2018, 1:38 AM
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I'm not sure I'd be ready to say that. The pendulum swinging too far into Westernity in the '70s and producing a fundamentalist revolution as a reaction was shown to be possible without American intervention.

Moreover, one could probably suggest that without any Soviet intervention, American intervention wouldn't have been needed in the first place. It's plausible that the mujahideen could have managed to overthrow the local communist government (which had themselves seized power via a coup anyway) had the two major powers refrained from intervening.

Regardless, even then - the basic situation remains the same: there's a government in charge somewhere and we feel that they're not doing things right for the children of their country (by our standards). Should we step in?

And regarding your analogy, I'd say that yes, anyone who'd think it'd have been okay for Americans to invade Canada and dismantle the residential school system is subscribing to the same school of thought that produced the residential schools, IMO. You look at your neighbor, decide he's doing it wrong in your opinion, you know better so you step in uninvited and fix things for him, for his own good (and he'll thank you later).
I'd say that it's entirely plausible that at some point the Taliban could ultimately prevail in Afghanistan and things could revert back to how they were when girls didn't go to school - which I assume has been the way things were for a much longer period in that part of the world and is arguably more "natural" than the short westernized interlude of the late 20th century, or this current imposition of a smidgen of progressivism by the western powers.

What's "natural" isn't necessarily what's better. It's just what people are used to.

And if they return to the societal subjugation of women, things will function perfectly fine (anyway, that's what they'd think) according to that model just like things function here according to our model.

Of course there would also likely be people over there in the future that will recall that at some point in the first part of 21st century there were fucking assholes from far away that came in and tried to force their people to live a different way, and were heroically booted out by the proud Afghans...
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  #13039  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2018, 1:59 AM
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Awhile back I asked everyone to post the ugliest Tim Hortons location you could find.

New contest:

Post the ugliest beer label you can find. (past or present) It must be a brand that was conceived in Canada.
     
     
  #13040  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2018, 2:30 AM
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That's all this thread seems to be, mainly with you and molsonex feeding off each other
Don't let the door hit your arse as you exit this thread.
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