Bilingualism in policy and in fact

[kool maudit]

pq minister diane de courcy has said that "montreal is not a bilingual city," adding (strangely) that stricter language laws "must be applied without mercy."

obviously, in the way that it actually functions, montreal is a bilingual city — this is why she felt she needed to say the thing that she did.

it is unpleasant to see politicians state things that they wish were true, or intend to make true, as if they are already objectively true. just as montreal really is a bilingual french/english city, edmonton (say) is not a bilingual french/english place. yet trudeau-era policies force it, at least in the governmental realm, to behave as if it is.

this disconnect between the truth-of-policy and the truth-of-daily-life is galling whenever it crops up. de courcy's comments about montreal have allowed me to see the perspective of the westerners and other canadians who regard official bilingualism as a bizarre imposition.

just as it is strange to say that something is true where it is not, it is strange to say that it isn't where it is.

there is something very dishonest about the debate on bilingualism in canada, and it seems to come from both sides.

[Acajack]

I must say the "without mercy" made me cringe. I wonder what she said in the original French (can't find it)?

"Sans merci" is the literal translation. It's as strong as the English words.

"Sans ménagement" is also possible. It's not so harsh.

[Acajack]

Sort of relevant:

http://www.edmontonsun.com/2014/02/2...-appeal-ruling

[kwoldtimer]

Most Canadians, certainly most English-speaking Canadians outside Quebec, have very little understanding of what official bilingualism is. Not that that stops some from having very strong opinions about it.

As far a bilingualism goes, I would have thought that it was Montreal's greatest strength but, hey, I'm not a PQ cabinet minister.

[GreaterMontréal]

If all the ''french canadian'' were in Qc , like someone said in the edmonton sun, Quebec would be 10 million+. Canada would be hurt, losing roughly 1/3 of its population.

''I am now hoping all french-speaking Canadians separate from Canada quickly, not just Quebec.''



yes Montréal is bilingual, but all the street signs are in french. etc ....

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Most Canadians, certainly most English-speaking Canadians outside Quebec, have very little understanding of what official bilingualism is. Not that that stops some from having very strong opinions about it.

As far a bilingualism goes, I would have thought that it was Montreal's greatest strength but, hey, I'm not a PQ cabinet minister.

The quandary I think lies into how to maintain the balance. Given the push and pull at play the sense is that French has to be "seeded" on the one side in order to balance things out and achieve some form of equilibrium between French and English.

Obviously not everyone agrees with this but it's not hard to find evidence of how a "free linguistic market" would be highly unfavourable to French and in fairly short time pretty detrimental to overall bilingualism in a city and a society in general.

Case in point: east end Ottawa.

[Surrealplaces]

The PQ can try whatever they want with language laws, I don't believe it'll make any difference in the end....at least for Montreal.
There will always be a sizeable number of people that can speak English in Montreal. Not only is it the main language of the US and the rest of Canada, but it's the international language. It only makes sense to at least learn it. From a career standpoint, you would want to be able to speak it.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Surrealplaces

The PQ can try whatever they want with language laws, I don't believe it'll,make any difference in the end....at least for Montreal.
There will always be a sizeable number of people that can speak English in Montreal. Not only is it the main language of the US and the rest of Canada, but it's the international language. It only makes sense. From a career standpoint, you would want to be able to speak it.

True, but the larger issue is whether these Montrealers will be first or second language English speakers.

[ue]

^ Who cares so long as they also know French? This shouldn't be that big of a deal anymore. Parents can choose whatever mother tongue they want for their kids.

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Most Canadians, certainly most English-speaking Canadians outside Quebec, have very little understanding of what official bilingualism is. Not that that stops some from having very strong opinions about it.

As far a bilingualism goes, I would have thought that it was Montreal's greatest strength but, hey, I'm not a PQ cabinet minister.

^ Yep, French is just something you hear as a recording on your flight to Orlando or on signs at federal government facilities. In practice, it has little use outside of Quebec, NW NB, parts of Eastern Ontario, and a collection of small towns in Nova Scotia and the Prairies. Case in point:

Originally Posted by Acajack

Sort of relevant:

http://www.edmontonsun.com/2014/02/2...-appeal-ruling

This just seems ridiculous. And it really highlights how unrealistic true bilingualism is. Even though federally, Canada is technically bilingual, this just feels like a Parisian going to Bristol and demanding he get service in French at McDonalds. And I'm saying this knowing full well that Edmonton does have a sizable Francophone minority, mostly in Bonnie Doon around the UofA's Faculte St-Jean, because this city is still wholly Anglophone. Demanding services in French here just feels ridiculous outside of Francophone enclaves.

[SignalHillHiker]

Bilingualism here is still innocent and unburdened. It's a convenience for francophone newcomers (for example, Newfoundland only has two school boards - one for a few thousand French students, the other for basically the entire province's student population), the joy of learning a second language for everyone else. It's generally not a necessity of daily life or government employment. There is no threatened plurality.

[Boris2k7]

When I was growing up, French was the language you start to learn in the fifth grade, finish learning by the seventh grade, and forget by the eighth grade. I can't imagine anything has changed today.

[Allan83]

Originally Posted by GreaterMontréal

If all the ''french canadian'' were in Qc , like someone said in the edmonton sun, Quebec would be 10 million+. Canada would be hurt, losing roughly 1/3 of its population.

''I am now hoping all french-speaking Canadians separate from Canada quickly, not just Quebec.''



yes Montréal is bilingual, but all the street signs are in french. etc ....

You're not going to find many rational comments in the Edmonton Sun, or any Sun newspaper for that matter.

[ue]

^ Or any newspaper for that matter...

Originally Posted by Boris2k7

When I was growing up, French was the language you start to learn in the fifth grade, finish learning by the seventh grade, and forget by the eighth grade. I can't imagine anything has changed today.

We started learning it in 4th grade. Starting in 7th, you had the option to switch to another language (though you still needed some sort of second language), but French was the only option, so obviously people stuck with French. In high school, there were more options and a second language was no longer mandatory. I switched from French to Spanish at this time, but both are incredibly irrelevant to daily life in Alberta, so I've forgotten 90% of my Spanish and 99% of my French.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ue

^ Or any newspaper for that matter...



We started learning it in 4th grade. Starting in 7th, you had the option to switch to another language (though you still needed some sort of second language), but French was the only option, so obviously people stuck with French. In high school, there were more options and a second language was no longer mandatory. I switched from French to Spanish at this time, but both are incredibly irrelevant to daily life in Alberta, so I've forgotten 90% of my Spanish and 99% of my French.

FYI Spanish is incredibly irrelevant to my life in Gatineau and I do not vacation in any place where Spanish is spoken, and yet I have retained 90% or more of my Spanish.

[Xelebes]

Originally Posted by ue

This just seems ridiculous. And it really highlights how unrealistic true bilingualism is. Even though federally, Canada is technically bilingual, this just feels like a Parisian going to Bristol and demanding he get service in French at McDonalds. And I'm saying this knowing full well that Edmonton does have a sizable Francophone minority, mostly in Bonnie Doon around the UofA's Faculte St-Jean, because this city is still wholly Anglophone. Demanding services in French here just feels ridiculous outside of Francophone enclaves.

Actually, I think his complaint is fair. The government deciding to pull the act was something done not in good faith to the francophone community already here, as it was one of the purely machination moves done during the Constitution ratification process.

[ue]

^ Perhaps you are just better at retaining language skills. Besides, I'm assuming you learnt and mastered French first. Once you learn one, it's a lot easier to learn another. I never really mastered French.

[SignalHillHiker]

Another consideration is the cost to business.

My employer, for example, is obligated to translate absolutely everything we produce in both official languages.

This is often one of the most significant costs associated with any particular project (it's always several times the cost of, for example, having the, say, final brochure designed and printed).

Sometimes it makes sense, it's something we plan to market in Quebec as well. Other times it's money down the drain.

[ue]

Originally Posted by Xelebes

Actually, I think his complaint is fair. The government deciding to pull the act was something done not in good faith to the francophone community already here, as it was one of the purely machination moves done during the Constitution ratification process.

In some ways, yes. But I look at how difficult that would be in effect, finding officers, judiciary members fluent in French...in Alberta...I'm sure some do, but not many. And every courthouse needing to give a French option would thus be highly unrealistic. Unless you're just talking about courthouses in areas with a strong Francophone population only, in which case I agree wholeheartedly.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

Another consideration is the cost to business.

My employer, for example, is obligated to translate absolutely everything we produce in both official languages.

This is often one of the most significant costs associated with any particular project (it's always several times the cost of, for example, having the, say, final brochure designed and printed).

Sometimes it makes sense, it's something we plan to market in Quebec as well. Other times it's money down the drain.

Sometimes it adversely affects the functionality of products, too.

American keyboards are much better than Canadian keyboards if you type primarily in English.

IMO, I think the government needs to be serious about implementing bilingualism or forget about it altogether. At least make French mandatory every single year K-12. Many other countries, some of them poorer, are able to teach their students multiple languages and they generally know it well. The French stuff in Ontario is a joke. Lets make a serious, sincere effort... or screw it. These half-ass measures are pointless because few people end up knowing French and you're just wasting time.

[SignalHillHiker]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

Sometimes it adversely affects the functionality of products, too.

American keyboards are much better than Canadian keyboards if you type primarily in English.

Oh God, don't get me started... just make one for French one for English? And, if you need both, buy a bilingual one.

I hate whatever the **** it is I press that automatically turns my keyboard to French. Whatever it is, I hit it all the time.