Dundas pedestrian mall

[manny_santos]

There has been talk on and off over the past 50 years about making Dundas Street in the downtown core a pedestrian mall, not unlike Sparks Street in Ottawa's core.

The issue has come up again recently, especially with the expansion of Car Free Sundays. Part of the proposal includes moving public transit onto Queens Avenue and King Street.

Some businesses along Dundas are upset about this idea, saying this will take away from their businesses. Some have cited a pedestrian mall that supposedly existed on Dundas near Adelaide for about 30 years starting in the 1970s as their reason for not wanting to remove traffic from Dundas downtown. (I have never once found evidence of such a pedestrian mall having ever existing in that area, and I never remember that being there when I was younger.)

I just returned from a weekend in Ottawa, where I spent some time looking at Sparks Street and the composition of the businesses that line it. Some of the merchants on Dundas Street in London are right, they won't survive with a pedestrian mall. The types of businesses that are on Dundas now are not the types of businesses found in a pedestrian mall; rather, different types of businesses would be found. On Sparks Street in Ottawa, there are no payday loan sharks or pawn shops. There are nice restaurants with large patios right on the street's right-of-way. I loved it. And transit? OC Transpo's east-west routes are just a block away.

That said, we have several businesses and other establishments already on Dundas Street downtown that would be a good fit with a pedestrian mall. These include, but are not limited to, the John Labatt Centre, Kingsmills, Starbucks, Forest City Image Centre, Coffee Culture, Scot's Corner, and the Central Library. Add some nice restaurant patios to the area to existing and future restaurants, and the area could be a vibrant place people would want to visit. It would integrate well with the Covent Garden Market.

Thoughts? Comments?

(P.S. I am seriously considering the possibility of moving to Ottawa next year, even though I speak virtually no French.)

[Pimpmasterdac]

You can see sorta where it existed on by Dundas & Lyle, as east of that Dundas is 4 lanes, but around Lyle it narrows to 2 and can see the extended curb/sidewalk. I wasn't around when it was a pedestrian mall, things have ovbiously changed in 30 odd years, but that area is utter crap these days. If anything the city make Dundas 4 lanes from Wellington to VMP!

Dundas downtown should not be a pedestrian only mall on a permanent basis. Just do those car free deals to weekends or summer days, which seems to work well for everyone currently. What will happen when there's bad summer or winter weather? Who's gonna venture down Dundas with a few feet of snow covering it? As well it would just be another locale for OW recipients and other undesirables to loiter downtown that drive families & business away.

However the city should re-route all buses on Dundas to King & Queen, to get some of the traffic off Dundas and make it more pedestrian friendly. Why clog up the street with 20 buses pumping emissions in a narrow corridor. Most people can use the exercise and walk a block anyways. That would help in dispersing the people who loiter on Dundas!

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by Pimpmasterdac

You can see sorta where it existed on by Dundas & Lyle, as east of that Dundas is 4 lanes, but around Lyle it narrows to 2 and can see the extended curb/sidewalk. I wasn't around when it was a pedestrian mall, things have ovbiously changed in 30 odd years, but that area is utter crap these days. If anything the city make Dundas 4 lanes from Wellington to VMP!

It did narrow from four lanes to two, but vehicular traffic including buses were still allowed through.

Originally Posted by Pimpmasterdac

Dundas downtown should not be a pedestrian only mall on a permanent basis. Just do those car free deals to weekends or summer days, which seems to work well for everyone currently. What will happen when there's bad summer or winter weather? Who's gonna venture down Dundas with a few feet of snow covering it? As well it would just be another locale for OW recipients and other undesirables to loiter downtown that drive families & business away.

What do they do with Sparks Street in Ottawa in the winter? I'm not sure, but something has been working for them for the past 45 years.

I think there would be fewer undesirables in the area if the buses didn't run through there, and if the city changed zoning to ban some of the establishments that attract those people.

Obviously it means shifting the problems elsewhere, but I'd rather those establishments be hidden away from the downtown where the rest of us are less likely to go.

[QuantumLeap]

Sparks Street in Ottawa is an utter failure. While the Rideau Centre is very successful (I believe the most successful downtown mall in Canada by sales/square feet), there is little other shopping anywhere in downtown Ottawa, which makes that city's downtown feel cold and boring. Too many cities have experimented with pedestrian malls and found that they failed.
I am all for eliminating some of the parking on Dundas in favour of wider sidewalks, and I am all for the sort of investment you would make in a pedestrian mall (newer/nicer street furniture, sculptures, fountains, murals, trees, paving), but not at the expense of eliminating traffic altogether. This would be murder for an already much battered strip.

[MolsonExport]

^My feeling as well. Vancouver's Granville street pedestrian mall was a total disaster (speaking from my 4 years living in Van in the nineties). Retail went completely south. The bums and freaks were legion. Soon, all that was left retail-wise were tattoo parlours, skin-mag shops, hemp/head stores, corner-stores with bars on the windows, and one lonely struggling coffee shop/restaurant.

My impression of Sparks street was that it contained 2 really interesting blocks of cafes/restaurants, and the rest was mostly a retail wasteland.

[flar]

Sparks St. is jam packed during business hours, but completely deserted on evenings and weekends. What else would you expect, it's completely surrounded by government office buildings. Almost all of downtown Ottawa is government office buildings but there is some decent shopping on Bank St, especially further towards the Glebe. Sparks St. makes a nice walking path for office workers and is very clean and tidy. All the freaks and panhandlers are on Rideau St.

One can't really complain about the ByWard Market, which is definitely one of the most successful urban spaces in Canada, with lots of high end shopping and restaurants. So there is more there than the Rideau Centre (which is phenomenally successful) but downtown Ottawa is primarily an office district with few tourists. Not really a good place for a retail pedestrian mall.

I definitely would not support pedestrianizing Dundas St. in London. You'd just create a nicer environment for the same ne'er-do-wells hanging around currently.

[LondONstudent]

It's to big of a risk for the city, if it fails it could completely collapse the downtown. I believe they should take a limited few of the non-frequently running buses to King & Queens.

They should take a look at Kitchener's streets scape It's very pleasing I do like the idea of the raised sidewalks that still incorporate parking.

[Wharn]

Wait just a second. We have a city that:

• Is cold and snowy for most of the year
• Has little, if any, tourist traffic
• Is mostly industrial in nature
• Already has a problem with welfare bums loitering around

And we want to somehow solve Dundas's problems by turning it into a pedestrian mall with all of the above considered? There's no way this would fly. If you really wanted to make Dundas more appealing, you may perhaps consider some of the following:

1. Get those damn buses off the street
2. Get rid of perpendicular parking and replace it with parallel
3. Widen the sidewalks and gussy up the streetscape
4. Introduce zoning bylaws that prevent crap like payday loans from operating on Dundas
5. Remove all Public Housing Complexes within 1 mile of Dundas

Traffic must be allowed through at all costs. Londoners are lazy and turning the street into a walking-only mall will not change that- North Americans need a serious attitude shift that will only be brought along by some lifestyle-altering event. Like a Revolution in Saudi Arabia.

[new age]

I don't see the focus on Dundas Street? Why can't they look as downtown as a whole there is more than one street to all good downtowns, and more then one street in need in London.

Dundas street serves a purpose already its a transit corridor many cities have them and they’re never the nicest street but they serve a roll. Calgary has 7th ave., Vancouver has Grandville, Winnipeg has Portage, and so on…

As for pedestrian malls I would love to see mid block pedestrian streets between King and, the CN tracks across from the market and between Richmond and Clarence st. and, Carling Street.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Wharn

Wait just a second. We have a city that:

• Is cold and snowy for most of the year
• Has little, if any, tourist traffic
• Is mostly industrial in nature
• Already has a problem with welfare bums loitering around

And we want to somehow solve Dundas's problems by turning it into a pedestrian mall with all of the above considered? There's no way this would fly. If you really wanted to make Dundas more appealing, you may perhaps consider some of the following:

1. Get those damn buses off the street
2. Get rid of perpendicular parking and replace it with parallel
3. Widen the sidewalks and gussy up the streetscape
4. Introduce zoning bylaws that prevent crap like payday loans from operating on Dundas
5. Remove all Public Housing Complexes within 1 mile of Dundas

Traffic must be allowed through at all costs. Londoners are lazy and turning the street into a walking-only mall will not change that- North Americans need a serious attitude shift that will only be brought along by some lifestyle-altering event. Like a Revolution in Saudi Arabia.

To this I would add:
-implement policies to discourage the loitering of bums in the area. Reason numero uno why I avoid the Richmond/Dundas corridors. I like to go downtown with my family (wife & two kids of 3 and 5 years), but I don't want them harrassed by piss-smelling winos and meth-mouth skanks.

King Street beats the shit out of Dundas.

[ForestryW]

Originally Posted by Wharn

Remove all Public Housing Complexes within 1 mile of Dundas

Yep that's the solution. Send all the poor people away.

As someone who spent 5 years of his childhood living in affordable housing in downtown London with a single mother I find this attitude truly disgusting.

[haljackey]

Simply put, London isn't big enough to make this happen. The downtown needs some serious increases in both residential and office population before you can even think of such a thing. If the city ignores this and goes through with it, I fear it will jeopardize the revitalization of our downtown.

Perhaps in a few decades Dundas could become a light-rail only line. The remainder of the street scape could be filled with cobblestone for pedestrian use (just hope they look both ways for trains while crossing the artery).

Right now though Dundas can be improved by getting the buses off it via King and Queen. We also need to seriously consider a bus terminal downtown to handle a growing and congested transit system downtown.

Also, I could see Dundas 4-laned to Wellington if there was a need, but King and Queen take care of through traffic... Dundas is more of a local street past Wellington.

[MrSlippery519]

I agree with haljackey, right now this would not work and would be a step backwards for London's downtown.

I do however think the city absolutely needs to get the buses off Dundas Street between Wellington and Talbot (maybe even to Ridout whatever works best) along with that get plans in place to build a terminal ideally somewhere along King or Queen.

[flar]

The size of the city has nothing to do with whether a pedestrian street would work.

Pedestrianization is not for Dundas, but it could be a really great street. It already has a nice solid streetwall with lots of historic buildings, and the street is narrow and intimate between Wellington and Talbot.

I don't think much would need to be done to make it more successful and pedestrian friendly. Put in some cobblestone intersections, take away the buses, divert through traffic to Queens Ave and King, make the sidewalks as wide as possible while still allowing some on-street parking. Have lots of stops and crosswalks. It could be made so that no one would drive on it unless they were looking for a parking spot or cruising the strip. It could end up being the kind of street where people are able to just walk out and the cars would feel the need to stop for them.

It would be really nice if more of the the upper floors of the older buildings were made into decent apartments. Back in my London days, most of the upper floors were used for storage and I was in a few that were the junkiest low rent apartments and rooming houses you could imagine.

[ForestryW]

I have to say that on the whole I don't mind Dundas Street as it is. Every time I go to London I'm amazed at how cosmopolitan Dundas seems and quite frankly there are no more weirdos than any other city.

Moving buses to King and Queen and not allowing big trucks would be a step in the right direction I think.

[Millstone]

Everyone's right, my London should cater to the needs of the white and privileged. Those not fitting in both categories shall live in the sewer!

[MolsonExport]

What the hell are you talking about?

[new age]

I know what to do. London should build a raised freeway threw the core, so the homeless can live under it and the rich can drive on it.

All that’s left is an oversized tower in the sky to get over London’s small tower syndrome.

I really think Dundas should be a transit mall with a BRT running down it. Transit terminals don’t work in larger cities. A downtown is a neighbourhood with not a single destination like a mall ect.

[Wharn]

Originally Posted by new age

I know what to do. London should build a raised freeway threw the core, so the homeless can live under it and the rich can drive on it.

I can't tell if this is a troll post or not, but anyways, that was originally the plan. Anyone have a map of the Thames Valley Parkway? In the meantime, it should also be noted that not everyone with a car is automatically "rich". If I was rich, I'd sure as hell be driving a Benz or a Lexus, not a friggin' Saturn.

Originally Posted by new age

No I totally agree that the homeless and trouble causers at Dundas and Richmond are just smoke and noise. I would worry a lot more about the gangsters or want to be gangsters rolling around in nice cars and good cloths with guns.

I don't know what London you're living in, but here all the "gangsters in nice cars" are either walking everywhere or driving around in a pimped-out Mazda 323.

Originally Posted by van Hemessen

Sorry for singling you out but I find the comment that no public housing should be allowed within a mile of Dundas to be fairly extreme.

Again, I did not endorse this solution, I merely said it would work as part of a strategy to make Dundas more upscale. As I previously said, it worked very well for the City of Toronto, not so well for the inner ring of suburbs.

Originally Posted by van Hemessen

Many abrasive, criminal and generally undesirable people live in public housing but most public housing residents are not like that.

Which is unfortunate, because those few undesirables are what cause people to avoid areas with a high concentration of public housing. Perhaps a better solution, rather than remove the said housing, is to simply permanently remove people who are convicted of serious criminal offences. Then, with some luck, public housing complexes would be just like any other working class neighbourhood: safe and secure, nothing to worry about.

Originally Posted by van Hemessen

Am I the only one here who doesn't think the concentration of homeless and low-income people on Dundas is a problem?

It's not a problem into and on to itself, but it is indicative of a wider economic problem. Ask yourself: What is wrong with our downtown if it is unable to attract much else other than the homeless or low-income people? Furthermore, what is wrong with our city as a whole if so many people are unable to pull themselves out of poverty?

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by Wharn

It's not a problem into and on to itself, but it is indicative of a wider economic problem. Ask yourself: What is wrong with our downtown if it is unable to attract much else other than the homeless or low-income people? Furthermore, what is wrong with our city as a whole if so many people are unable to pull themselves out of poverty?

London's downtown is starting to attract some upper-class folks, but to this point it seems there aren't many middle-class folks.

The lack of ability to pull oneself out of poverty is a complex issue. Certainly in London there is a lack of meaningful employment available, and even the non-meaningful employment is starting to disappear (i.e. the call centers). But, on the other side, there are some people in poverty who don't manage their finances well, throwing money away on cigarettes and cable TV subscriptions. Definitely not all, but there are some like that.

These problems aren't isolated to downtown either. Even in Byron, generally a middle-to-upper class area, there is some public housing. The amount of garbage strewn around on the side of the road near that housing is comparable to the areas around Western and Fanshawe, far greater than other parts of the city. I saw old computer equipment dumped there last fall, it stayed there buried under snow all winter, and wasn't cleaned up until May; in any event there's always garbage laying around in the area.