HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > United States > Mountain West


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #2301  
Old Posted Apr 20, 2010, 9:07 PM
John Martin's Avatar
John Martin John Martin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,195
What exactly would forcing businesses, such as car dealerships, to build up against the sidewalk accomplish? Do you really think that car dealerships are going to attract more pedestrians if they're closer to the sidewalk? Well.. I guess pedestrians need cars, right?

You're basically trying to make something the total opposite of what it is. State St is just not a walking environment. I'm not saying there aren't specific areas that could benefit from more pedestrian-oriented features, there most certainly are, but not all of State St is appropriate for that. Regulations like those mentioned would seem ridiculously overbearing to me, if they were imposed on areas outside of downtown and other areas that would mostly already be in compliance.

What the main problem is with State (according to a recent poll) is simply that it is ugly. Around here, State Street is a joke. I remember once in Jr. High, a student light-heartedly claimed that he lived on State Street, and everyone laughed. I've heard, "your mom works on State St," a number of times, and that always gets a similar response. It will probably have a trashy reputation for a long time. I think there are a number of ways to help beautify State, but then again, it's easy to see how those projects could do more harm than good. Trees can do a good job of covering up ugly buildings, and they can also hide businesses from motorists. They may make it more appealing to pedestrians, but they will never diminish the size and long walking distances. All I'm saying is that all the consequences should be thought out clearly and thoroughly.

Last edited by John Martin; Apr 20, 2010 at 9:23 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2302  
Old Posted Apr 20, 2010, 11:21 PM
WeST's Avatar
WeST WeST is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Murray
Posts: 340


Spot on.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2303  
Old Posted Apr 21, 2010, 12:02 AM
urbanboy urbanboy is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Downtown Salt Lake City
Posts: 2,120
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Martin View Post
What exactly would forcing businesses, such as car dealerships, to build up against the sidewalk accomplish? Do you really think that car dealerships are going to attract more pedestrians if they're closer to the sidewalk? Well.. I guess pedestrians need cars, right?

You're basically trying to make something the total opposite of what it is. State St is just not a walking environment. I'm not saying there aren't specific areas that could benefit from more pedestrian-oriented features, there most certainly are, but not all of State St is appropriate for that. Regulations like those mentioned would seem ridiculously overbearing to me, if they were imposed on areas outside of downtown and other areas that would mostly already be in compliance.

What the main problem is with State (according to a recent poll) is simply that it is ugly. Around here, State Street is a joke. I remember once in Jr. High, a student light-heartedly claimed that he lived on State Street, and everyone laughed. I've heard, "your mom works on State St," a number of times, and that always gets a similar response. It will probably have a trashy reputation for a long time. I think there are a number of ways to help beautify State, but then again, it's easy to see how those projects could do more harm than good. Trees can do a good job of covering up ugly buildings, and they can also hide businesses from motorists. They may make it more appealing to pedestrians, but they will never diminish the size and long walking distances. All I'm saying is that all the consequences should be thought out clearly and thoroughly.
having buildings to walk next to make the pedestrian experience more enjoyable. Weather you're steeling some shade or peering into windows, it sure beats walking in a vast space of nothingness. When walking next to fields of asphalt, it feels to the pedestrian as if he's getting nowhere. If there is not adequate shade, the asphalt can heat up quickly and also make the walking experience uncomfortable.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2304  
Old Posted Apr 21, 2010, 12:29 AM
John Martin's Avatar
John Martin John Martin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,195
You also need to consider what's best for the businesses. If the only benefit of increased regulations meant to increase walkability is that it's nicer to walk, then they're not worth pursuing. If those efforts are pursued in an attempt to increase business, then it's primarily the needs of the businesses in question that need to be considered.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2305  
Old Posted Apr 21, 2010, 4:55 AM
urbanboy urbanboy is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Downtown Salt Lake City
Posts: 2,120
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Martin View Post
You also need to consider what's best for the businesses. If the only benefit of increased regulations meant to increase walkability is that it's nicer to walk, then they're not worth pursuing. If those efforts are pursued in an attempt to increase business, then it's primarily the needs of the businesses in question that need to be considered.
if it's signage you are worried about, trees can be trimmed high enough to not block the signage. If it's parking you're worried about, there will be always be more than enough parking. Furthermore, not as much parking will be needed for businesses if a BRT line is implemented on State Street.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2306  
Old Posted Apr 21, 2010, 5:41 AM
i-215's Avatar
i-215 i-215 is offline
Exit 298
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Greater Los Angeles
Posts: 3,346
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Martin View Post
You also need to consider what's best for the businesses. If the only benefit of increased regulations meant to increase walkability is that it's nicer to walk, then they're not worth pursuing. If those efforts are pursued in an attempt to increase business, then it's primarily the needs of the businesses in question that need to be considered.
Plus considering the real possibility that (in today's economic environment) too many rules will scare developers away to 'friendlier' cities. Nothing says "inviting" quite like a bunch of vacant lots and abandoned buildings.

There are places for zero lot lines and building to the curb. There are places not to. State Street is a "high speed arterial." Let's keep it that way and instead focus our efforts on other streets with better promise, like Main.
__________________
(I've sadly learned...) You can take the boy out of Utah, but you can't take the Utah out of the boy
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2307  
Old Posted Apr 21, 2010, 6:20 AM
TonyAnderson's Avatar
TonyAnderson TonyAnderson is offline
.
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Salt Lake City | Utah
Posts: 2,788
Quote:
Originally Posted by i-215 View Post
Plus considering the real possibility that (in today's economic environment) too many rules will scare developers away to 'friendlier' cities. Nothing says "inviting" quite like a bunch of vacant lots and abandoned buildings.

There are places for zero lot lines and building to the curb. There are places not to. State Street is a "high speed arterial." Let's keep it that way and instead focus our efforts on other streets with better promise, like Main.
But many cities in the valley use S. State street AS their Main Street.
__________________
Instagram | Twitter

www.UtahProjects.info
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2308  
Old Posted Apr 21, 2010, 2:23 PM
delts145's Avatar
delts145 delts145 is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Downtown Los Angeles
Posts: 19,388
Agreed Tony, and that should definitely be reflected in cities like Murray. I think there's much that could be done to both keep the necessary commercial positives of State, and at the same time make it more aesthetically pleasing. I'm not sure about converting any portion of State to the same situation as Downtown's Main. However, is there any question that much could be done with at least an attractive median and improved street level engagement. I think that this should be a given in Downtown Salt Lake, South Salt Lake and Murray.

Hmm... Just turned to this in this morning's Trib. Very interesting... and attractive! I love the idea of BRT, especially when you start getting into the CNG type buses.

State Street plan makes room for pedestrians, mass transit


a rendering of how a bus rapid transit line with improved walking conditions might look on State Street at various points throughout the valley. COurtesy The Planning Center

By Brandon Loomis
The Salt Lake Tribune


http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_14923437?source=rv

The State Street of the future won't be a monoculture of car-centered businesses and soulless parking lots, planners hope.

It won't be mile after mile of a pedestrian utopia either, under a plan that Salt Lake Valley municipal leaders unveiled last month.


Instead, planners hope to stagger walking and transit-centered zones with places where the car remains king but a pedestrian might not feel totally isolated, the way one does on much of the street today. It is a voluntary plan that each city would need to incorporate into its local zoning scheme, but the various mayors have endorsed it.

Pedestrian-friendly "transitways" are envisioned for stretches where a bustling "Main Street" feel makes sense in the various cities along the strip from the State Capitol to Draper, but where walking isn't likely to be the dominant mode as in downtown Salt Lake City. They are prettier, but still built to move people.

"The idea with the transitway is to think about a hybrid that can work for a suburban franchise like a Walgreen's or even a fast-food place, but at the same time it starts to create a more beautiful environment, a more walkable environment, and an environment that works for people who ride transit," said Ted Knowlton, a consulting planner who helped complete the "Life of State" plan for the Wasatch Front Regional Council.

It has wider sidewalks and greener surroundings to make walking comfortable.

Sounds good to Daniel Fisher, who on Tuesday afternoon enjoyed a cigarette and some coffee outside Coffee Connection, across from Salt Lake Community College's State Street campus in southern Salt Lake City. He sat at one of the tables away from the six lanes of traffic, off to the Wood Avenue side of the building.

"It's not as appealing as it could be," Fisher said of both State Street and the sidewalk along it, which at that point has no greenery except for weeds emerging through cracks. He prefers the side away from State, "just because of the traffic, the noise, and you get a lot less hits from people asking for cigarettes."

A suburban dweller who works in Salt Lake City several blocks west of State, Fisher said he could see spending more than just his coffee breaks here if the street spruces up and traffic calms, like in the planners' drawings.

But there are also big businesses nearby on State -- Boater's World, for instance, in a cement-block building without a window on the street -- where vehicle traffic will remain key. Knowlton, of The Planning Center consultants, said the transit-friendly corridors don't have to crowd out existing car-centered businesses any more than TRAX did along 400 South.

Spots in between the transitways and the various walkable downtowns will continue to cater to car access -- especially where today there are car dealers -- though a bus rapid transit line will help whisk commuters and shoppers between Murray and Salt Lake City. Even the auto-first zones should have somewhat friendlier sidewalks, Knowlton said, and smaller shops along the street could help buffer pedestrians from big-box parking lots.

Besides having covered, possibly mid-street stations similar to today's TRAX stops, cities might zone for higher housing densities and buildings that are not barricaded by parking out front.

A prime candidate for the transitway treatment -- and a spot designated as such on the intercity plan's map -- is Salt Lake City's strip from 1300 South to Interstate 80. It is a place with big employers, such as Salt Lake County headquarters and O.C. Tanner. And it already is a neighborhood in transition, Knowlton said, where restaurants such as Rusted Sun and pubs such as Piper Down foreshadow a livelier future.

"The market is saying there's some fun activity here," Knowlton said. A mixed-use development slated for 2100 South adds hope. "There's clear momentum."

New public transportation options will help. Salt Lake City and South Salt Lake are planning an east-west streetcar line around 2200 South, and another is possible along 900 South in the capital. Paired with an eventual street car or bus rapid transit line on State itself, Knowlton said, these improvements would accelerate the foot traffic.

Other pedestrian-friendly transitways would straddle 2700 South, 3300 South, 3900-4500 South, 5300 South, Fashion Place Mall, Jordan Commons, South Towne Mall, 11400 South and 12300 South. Still more pedestrian-intense zones, zoned for high density and street-fronting buildings, are in downtown Salt Lake to 900 South, downtown Murray, downtown Midvale, 9000 South and Sandy City Center.

A planned State Street transit line is due for $145 million from the Wasatch Front Regional Council sometime between 2016 and 2025, according to the intergovernmental agency's regional transportation plan. Planners announcing the "Life on State" initiative last month said they hope future housing densities justify a railed streetcar, but for now the plan is a rapid bus line from downtown Salt Lake to 6200 South.

The bus line would have dedicated lanes in some zones -- perhaps the transitway stretches -- to help speed riders along those areas where congestion is likely to hold rush-hour traffic to under 20 mph . It might also have "queue jumpers," short dedicated lanes and exclusive signals at major interchanges allowing the buses to bypass lines at stop lights and then head through the interchange first, Wasatch Front transportation planner Greg Scott said. Stops would be every half-mile or mile, with park-and-ride lots every three miles.

The State Street line is part of a broader long-term plan for roads and transit that, as a whole, is projected to require voter approval of a new quarter-cent sales tax. Wasatch Front spokesman Sam Klemm said more study will be needed before an exact configuration is chosen.


A rendering of how a bus rapid transit line with improved walking conditions might look at State Street at various points throughout the valley. (Courtesy The Planning Center)

.

Last edited by delts145; Apr 21, 2010 at 3:03 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2309  
Old Posted Apr 21, 2010, 5:08 PM
Future Mayor's Avatar
Future Mayor Future Mayor is offline
Vote for me in 2019!
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
Posts: 4,803
As the article states there are places along State that will increase their orientation to being pedestrian friendly or "pedestrian comfortable" with the addition of more zero lot line buildings, increased housing densities, etc; downtown, SSL, Murray, Historic Sandy. And areas that will be more geared towards the car, with some minor improvements to ease the concerns of pedestrians. It's just like Tony said; Many cities use State as their "Main Street" Murray is the best example, and many cities have no "Main Street" identity, SSL. I think the plan will allow for these cities to improve upon or create a "Main Street."

We all make fun of Orem because it's one continues strip of auto oriented businesses for miles and miles and miles. Implementation of the State Street Plan will allow SL County cities to break up the monotony and give some interesting character to each city.

The plan does nothing to negatively impact the current businesses or the current traffic demands. In fact I could see that with BRT the overall carrying capacity of State can easily be increased. With park and rides every 3 miles, why wouldn't someone that is only going to be driving up state for 15 miles not jump on BRT?

And while some say that signs may be blocked by landscaping, if the signs are placed properly within the contexts of landscaping, think of how many more people have the opportunity to see those businesses signs if they are on BRT rather than attempting to focus on driving.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2310  
Old Posted Apr 22, 2010, 3:23 AM
TonyAnderson's Avatar
TonyAnderson TonyAnderson is offline
.
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Salt Lake City | Utah
Posts: 2,788
I like the idea of BRT, or the new MAX Uta has begun using in West Valley, for State.
__________________
Instagram | Twitter

www.UtahProjects.info
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2311  
Old Posted Apr 22, 2010, 4:27 AM
Future Mayor's Avatar
Future Mayor Future Mayor is offline
Vote for me in 2019!
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
Posts: 4,803
Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyAnderson View Post
I like the idea of BRT, or the new MAX Uta has begun using in West Valley, for State.
MAX is BRT!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2312  
Old Posted Apr 22, 2010, 6:25 AM
SLCdude's Avatar
SLCdude SLCdude is offline
Lurker
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Salt Lake City
Posts: 836
Curitiba, Brazil, has a great BRT system. (In case you didn't already know)

Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2313  
Old Posted Apr 22, 2010, 4:00 PM
i-215's Avatar
i-215 i-215 is offline
Exit 298
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Greater Los Angeles
Posts: 3,346
Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyAnderson View Post
But many cities in the valley use S. State street AS their Main Street.
I suppose cities could dedicate 2-3 specific blocks of "downtown" (like Murray near Vine, etc.) and keep limits high and roads wide until you hit the "downtown." The trouble is then you have a clogged drain. The nice flowing road will have horrible traffic and the key intersections you are trying to make nice. On the other hand, if we make the entire street slow and narrow -- well, that's like a smoker's heart. You're just asking to turn State into a stroke victim.

Perhaps make really nice downtowns off to the side of state? Use one of the intersecting smaller streets? Like Vine. Or how about Main????
__________________
(I've sadly learned...) You can take the boy out of Utah, but you can't take the Utah out of the boy
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2314  
Old Posted Apr 22, 2010, 4:10 PM
arkhitektor arkhitektor is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Clearfield, UT
Posts: 1,768
So Murray should relocate its 100 year old downtown district off of State St. so that people can drive through the area faster? Who drives all the way down State St. anyway? If you're going more than a few miles, you're better off taking I-15.

Last edited by arkhitektor; Apr 22, 2010 at 5:00 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2315  
Old Posted Apr 22, 2010, 8:08 PM
Future Mayor's Avatar
Future Mayor Future Mayor is offline
Vote for me in 2019!
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
Posts: 4,803
Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhitektor View Post
...Murray should relocate its 100 year old downtown district off of State St. so that people can drive through the area faster....?

Are you CRAZY arkhitektor?

I like taking things out of context.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2316  
Old Posted Apr 23, 2010, 1:26 AM
TonyAnderson's Avatar
TonyAnderson TonyAnderson is offline
.
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Salt Lake City | Utah
Posts: 2,788
Quote:
Originally Posted by Future Mayor View Post
MAX is BRT!
Sorry, I meant the dedicated lane portion of it. Not all the BRT lines have that do they?
__________________
Instagram | Twitter

www.UtahProjects.info
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2317  
Old Posted Apr 23, 2010, 6:03 PM
shakman's Avatar
shakman shakman is offline
Chairman
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: PRMD - People's Republic of Maryland
Posts: 2,672
Quote:
Originally Posted by Future Mayor View Post
Are you CRAZY arkhitektor?

I like taking things out of context.
Careful... you may lose some votes in 2019 - j/k
__________________
"I measure the value of life not by how much I have, instead by what I have done.

-sb
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2318  
Old Posted Apr 23, 2010, 10:10 PM
i-215's Avatar
i-215 i-215 is offline
Exit 298
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Greater Los Angeles
Posts: 3,346
Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhitektor View Post
So Murray should relocate its 100 year old downtown district off of State St. so that people can drive through the area faster? Who drives all the way down State St. anyway? If you're going more than a few miles, you're better off taking I-15.
I misspoke. I mean 4800 South, which is the corner of State and Murray's downtown. I'm not saying make the limit any faster than it already is on State. Rather, just add new walkable development onto a street that can be nice to walk on. The downtown is still there. But State can have more of an auto emphasis while 48th can be walkable.

Then everybody gets what they want.
__________________
(I've sadly learned...) You can take the boy out of Utah, but you can't take the Utah out of the boy
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2319  
Old Posted Apr 23, 2010, 10:18 PM
Future Mayor's Avatar
Future Mayor Future Mayor is offline
Vote for me in 2019!
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
Posts: 4,803
Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyAnderson View Post
Sorry, I meant the dedicated lane portion of it. Not all the BRT lines have that do they?
Currently Max does not have fully completed center lane, but it is in the process or getting the dedicated center lanes. They were just finishing up a new BRT center dedicated line in Cleveland when I moved. It has been a huge success. I think all BRT's should have a dedicated lane, it needs to set itself apart from traditional bus service. IMO
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2320  
Old Posted Apr 23, 2010, 11:17 PM
arkhitektor arkhitektor is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Clearfield, UT
Posts: 1,768
Quote:
Originally Posted by Future Mayor View Post
Currently Max does not have fully completed center lane, but it is in the process or getting the dedicated center lanes. They were just finishing up a new BRT center dedicated line in Cleveland when I moved. It has been a huge success. I think all BRT's should have a dedicated lane, it needs to set itself apart from traditional bus service. IMO
MAX BRT does have a dedicated lane from about Redwood to Bangerter Hwy. It opened a few weeks ago:


http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_14825228
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > United States > Mountain West
Forum Jump



Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 10:47 AM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.