High-Speed Intercity Passenger Rail Program (USA)

[NSC1109]

Originally Posted by SIGSEGV

It could run as a closed train between Buffalo and Detroit and then perhaps not require a customs check. At least in a sane world. That would also have the advantage of actually hitting Buffalo's main station.

Erie would be the main loser (but perhaps a corridor train between Cleveland and Buffalo could be added... not sure how much demand there is in that corridor.).

That’s what I was thinking of, but I’m also basing the reroute off of my Cascades experience a few years ago. Our border crossing took maybe 10 or 15 minutes in 2015. I figure that could probably be transplanted over to the MI/Canadian border, with Customs agents based at MCS and whatever town the train would be at on the other side, probably Buffalo.

Plus, the goal of rerouting the LSL was to connect the major cities of lower MI to the East Coast. There was a preliminary schedule put out a couple years ago for a planned reroute, calling in Dearborn, AA, Battle Creek (MI Line crew change point, no choice on that one), and Kalamazoo. The reroute had the train headed up the NS from Toledo but they couldn’t get to Detroit proper without logistical problems. My reroute plan allows for the same stations, PLUS Detroit proper.

[NSC1109]

This is a link to a thread on railroad.net regarding turning the long-distance coaches into “slumber coaches” designed for overnight travel. It was started in 2016 but has recently gained a lot of interest with the upcoming equipment purchase. Sample diagrams included.

http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewt...?f=46&t=163284

[ardecila]

Originally Posted by NSC1109

That’s what I was thinking of, but I’m also basing the reroute off of my Cascades experience a few years ago. Our border crossing took maybe 10 or 15 minutes in 2015. I figure that could probably be transplanted over to the MI/Canadian border, with Customs agents based at MCS and whatever town the train would be at on the other side, probably Buffalo.

Plus, the goal of rerouting the LSL was to connect the major cities of lower MI to the East Coast. There was a preliminary schedule put out a couple years ago for a planned reroute, calling in Dearborn, AA, Battle Creek (MI Line crew change point, no choice on that one), and Kalamazoo. The reroute had the train headed up the NS from Toledo but they couldn’t get to Detroit proper without logistical problems. My reroute plan allows for the same stations, PLUS Detroit proper.

Seems like a waste to operate through Canada without stopping in a few major cities like Windsor, London, or Hamilton. The train won't get slots on CN/CP track without the strong support of VIA, and why should they support a train that makes no stops?

If you want to connect Michigan to the East Coast and connecting at Toledo (or Chicago) is too hard, why not partner with VIA to bring their Toronto-Windsor trains into Detroit? Apart from setting up customs and moving the Windsor station, the expense would be negligible, would not require additional slots on Canadian trackage and Detroiters could transfer to the Maple Leaf at Hamilton. Plus Detroit could essentially free-ride on Canada/Ontario's efforts to improve speed and reliability rather than relying on Amtrak's broken-dreams budgeting.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by ardecila

Seems like a waste to operate through Canada without stopping in a few major cities like Windsor, London, or Hamilton. The train won't get slots on CN/CP track without the strong support of VIA, and why should they support a train that makes no stops?

If you want to connect Michigan to the East Coast and connecting at Toledo (or Chicago) is too hard, why not partner with VIA to bring their Toronto-Windsor trains into Detroit? Apart from setting up customs and moving the Windsor station, the expense would be negligible, would not require additional slots on Canadian trackage and Detroiters could transfer to the Maple Leaf at Hamilton. Plus Detroit could essentially free-ride on Canada/Ontario's efforts to improve speed and reliability rather than relying on Amtrak's broken-dreams budgeting.

Don't count on VIA. VIA is dependent on Canadian federal government funding, which has been trending downward. There is presently a study underway but its focus is to speed up service between Toronto and Montreal via Ottawa. Nevertheless, the current Ontario government has claimed to support rail improvements between Hamilton and Niagara Falls. I never fully believe these grandiose ideas that always seem to be more political talk than action. Nevertheless, the GO Transit rail network centred on Toronto is slowly expanding. GO Rail service has expanded to Kitchener-Waterloo and will soon reach Stoney Creek, which is the first step beyond Hamiliton and towards Niagara Falls. The Ontario government is also working towards all day service on most of its GO rail lines, which will allow much more convenient connections within Ontario than VIA can offer.

Of course, there is a Detroit River rail tunnel that could connect Windsor to Detroit (as I am sure it did in the past) and there is a Canada-US agreement for customs pre-clearance for trains that already exists at a number of Canadian airports. I am sure there are many details still to be worked out to bring customs pre-clearance to a reality. The great delays for customs is the number one reason why cross-border rail service is not likely to be improved anytime soon.

[Busy Bee]

http://railcolornews.com/2018/08/09/...avelia-trains/

[NSC1109]

Originally Posted by ardecila

Seems like a waste to operate through Canada without stopping in a few major cities like Windsor, London, or Hamilton. The train won't get slots on CN/CP track without the strong support of VIA, and why should they support a train that makes no stops?

If you want to connect Michigan to the East Coast and connecting at Toledo (or Chicago) is too hard, why not partner with VIA to bring their Toronto-Windsor trains into Detroit? Apart from setting up customs and moving the Windsor station, the expense would be negligible, would not require additional slots on Canadian trackage and Detroiters could transfer to the Maple Leaf at Hamilton. Plus Detroit could essentially free-ride on Canada/Ontario's efforts to improve speed and reliability rather than relying on Amtrak's broken-dreams budgeting.

1). The Cascades operates between Vancouver and Bellingham, WA without making any stops for Burnaby, Surrey, and New Westminster. A rerouted LSL would provide a single seat trip to the East Coast without having to change from Amtrak to VIA and then back to Amtrak. At the same time, it's not just hard to connect in Toledo or anywhere else along that route; it's a bloody pain. Trains get in early in the morning or late at night. There's no corridor connection, meaning you have to drive. It's a crappy situation. There was a sample schedule put out in 2016 for a planned reroute via Dearborn along the Michigan Line and those station stop times were a lot better than the current times. Right now, 449 makes 6 stops between 12-7 AM. Those stops and their annual riderships as of 2017 are:

Bryan: 5,825
Sandusky: 10,009
Cleveland: 53,528
Elyria: 7,104
Toledo: 56,275
Total: 132,651

Replacement stops as outlined by the reroute timetable found here:
http://railroadfan.com/gallery/album...51/DADS122.jpg

Detroit: 62,168*
Dearborn: 72,656
Ann Arbor: 146,613
Jackson: 23,373
Battle Creek: 42,301
Kalamazoo: 115,231
Niles: 17,526
Hammond-Whiting (IN): 11,321
Total: 491,189

*Detroit isn't on the original reroute paperwork, as it would require a lengthy reverse move. However, since it would be included in a Canada reroute, I have incorporated those numbers here.

As you can see, the Michigan Line would have almost 3 times as many potential riders than the current routing. Factoring in the Indiana stops, which amount to another 66,924 passengers, you only get up to 199,575. That still puts the Michigan Line at almost 2.5x that of the current route. Factor in the Canadian running (in the neighborhood of 4.5 hours compared to the almost 6 hours on the current route) and it could give the LSL a major boost in service. However, the schedule would need to be altered in order to try and make the Canada portion occur overnight, that way you aren't having to drop off/pick up passengers who are already tired and you have available capacity on CN/CP.

The other issue is that if VIA were to extend to Detroit, equipment would have to carry PTC. As of 5/4/18, there has been no mandate for PTC installation in Canada. I doubt VIA would be willing to install the needed components on their equipment just for one cross-border stop.

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

...Of course, there is a Detroit River rail tunnel that could connect Windsor to Detroit (as I am sure it did in the past) and there is a Canada-US agreement for customs pre-clearance for trains that already exists at a number of Canadian airports. I am sure there are many details still to be worked out to bring customs pre-clearance to a reality. The great delays for customs is the number one reason why cross-border rail service is not likely to be improved anytime soon.

The Detroit River tunnel is already used to connect CP to NS so that CP from eastern Canada has access to Chicago without having to travel around the lakes. I think there is also Customs preclearance on the Cascades service. I doubt it would be too difficult to transplant that to Detroit and Niagra Falls.

[lrt's friend]

The Montreal-New York does not have customs pre-clearance. I am not sure how it would work going north bound with numerous stops in New York state. It was about a one hour delay at the customs stop and someone ended up being kicked off the train by Canadian customs. It looked like they were taken to a detention centre in Canada rather than returned to US customs.

[NSC1109]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The Montreal-New York does not have customs pre-clearance. I am not sure how it would work going north bound with numerous stops in New York state. It was about a one hour delay at the customs stop and someone ended up being kicked off the train by Canadian customs. It looked like they were taken to a detention centre in Canada rather than returned to US customs.

The solution would seem rather simple: anyone who gets off before Canada wouldn’t need preclearance. You would just need a list of people actually going to Canada.

That is, if I’m understanding your post correctly.

[phoenixboi08]

Isn't that in the process of being ironed out -- for like a decade, now?

[Busy Bee]

High-speed rail plan for Pacific Northwest takes a step forward

By Antonio Pacheco • January 18, 2019

News Transportation West


_


A fledgling plan to bring high-speed rail (HSR) service to the Pacific Northwest region of the United States and parts of southwestern Canada is moving closer to becoming a reality.

The Urbanist reported that this week, the Washington State Legislature introduced legislation that would create a new interstate high-speed rail authority for the region that could begin to take the first steps toward making the Cascadia Rail plan a reality. According to The Urbanist, the new rail authority would be in charge of coordinating high-speed rail efforts across Washington, Oregon, and Canadian jurisdictions while also setting requirements for contracting operations and other issues. The authority would also be responsible for ensuring that the trains and routes selected for the project could deliver service at 250 miles per hour, a key stipulation for making the project economically viable across the region.

Rest of story

[BrownTown]

I think the I-5 corridor looks sensible there, but going all the way over to Spokane doesn't really add much IMO for a huge additional cost.

[Busy Bee]

Let Washington have what Washington wants (and is willing to pay for).

[Crawford]

Via Rail is very expensive compared to non-Acela Amtrak. It costs roughly 3x as much to go to Toronto from Detroit (Windsor) compared to Chicago, and they're basically equal distances from Detroit.

In any case, I can't imagine there would be huge demand for a Detroit-Toronto service.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by NSC1109

The solution would seem rather simple: anyone who gets off before Canada wouldn’t need preclearance. You would just need a list of people actually going to Canada.

That is, if I’m understanding your post correctly.

As far as I know, there is no precedent for Canadian Customs Preclearance in the United States.

It is only American customs that operates out of Canadian airports.

Nevertheless, my point was that on the Montreal-New York route, there are numerous stops in New York state. Passengers can embark or disembark at any of those stations. There is no one or two stations that Canada bound passengers could be precleared.

The only way this could possibly work is to allow Canadian Customs on board the train prior to reaching the Canadian border, for example, at the last New York stop. While the train is moving north, passengers would be cleared, instead of doing this on a stopped train at the border. At the border, any passengers not eligible for entry would be removed from the train.

If my memory is correct, at the Norway-Sweden border, Norwegian custom agents boarded the train and as the train moved, agents would clear passengers. At the Sweden-Denmark border, the train was stopped while Swedish agents checked passengers.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Via Rail is very expensive compared to non-Acela Amtrak. It costs roughly 3x as much to go to Toronto from Detroit (Windsor) compared to Chicago, and they're basically equal distances from Detroit.

In any case, I can't imagine there would be huge demand for a Detroit-Toronto service.

Would please provide sample fares to verify that statement? I can travel between Ottawa and Toronto on VIA for as low as $40 CDN (about $30 USD). This is a similar distance as between Detroit and Chicago. Your statement suggests that Amtrak fares will be $10. True or False?

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Would please provide sample fares to verify that statement? I can travel between Ottawa and Toronto on VIA for as low as $40 CDN (about $30 USD). This is a similar distance as between Detroit and Chicago. Your statement suggests that Amtrak fares will be $10. True or False?

Unless Via and Amtrak recently changed their fare structures, it's usually around 3x the difference. Detroit-Chicago is like $40 RT, Detroit-Toronto is like $120 RT. Also for Detroiters using Via you need to add tolls, paying for parking, and a slower train. It isn't very surprising that the Chicago-bound route is more used, as least on the Michigan side.

[sammyg]

Originally Posted by BrownTown

I think the I-5 corridor looks sensible there, but going all the way over to Spokane doesn't really add much IMO for a huge additional cost.

The Empire Builder comes through Spokane, getting high speed service there could make it more attractive to attach to future cross-country routes.

[BrownTown]

Originally Posted by sammyg

The Empire Builder comes through Spokane, getting high speed service there could make it more attractive to attach to future cross-country routes.

HSR doesn't make sense for such long routes. It only has a limited sweet spot of say 200-600 miles. A cross country route wouldn't make economic sense compared to flying.

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Unless Via and Amtrak recently changed their fare structures, it's usually around 3x the difference. Detroit-Chicago is like $40 RT, Detroit-Toronto is like $120 RT. Also for Detroiters using Via you need to add tolls, paying for parking, and a slower train. It isn't very surprising that the Chicago-bound route is more used, as least on the Michigan side.

I'm confused where you are getting this. I just looked at amtrak's website for a sample long weekend trip. March 1-4th, 2019. Windsor to Toronto round trip with those dates is $90.40 CAD ($67.75 USD) after tax. Detroit to Chicago is $94 USD. VIA is actually about 30% cheaper.

I'm sure it varies significantly, but they aren't going to end up with what you qouted.

[M II A II R II K]

Vancouver-Seattle-Portland high-speed rail zips closer to reality with new business case

https://biv.com/article/2019/07/vanc...-business-case

https://www.wsdot.wa.gov/sites/defau...mmary-2019.pdf

.....

- A high-speed rail linking Vancouver, Seattle and Portland has the potential to unlock US$355 billion in economic growth and 160,000 new permanent jobs throughout the Cascadia region, according to a new study submitted to Washington’s state legislature. The Ultra-High-Speed Ground Transportation Business Case Analysis, which was made public July 15, concluded the infrastructure project being floated by stakeholders in all three jurisdictions could generate between US$160 million and US$250 million in initial annual revenue.

- Drastically cutting travel time between the cities would also have the knock-on effect of drawing more companies to the region, which the report from the Washington State Department of Transportation argues would generate hundreds of billions of dollars in economic growth. This hypothetical ultra-high-speed system would travel at speeds of more than 320 kilometres per hour either through high-speed rail, magnetic levitation or hyperloop technology. --- Travel times from Vancouver to Seattle would be reduced to one hour and travel times from Vancouver to Portland would be reduced to two hours. The system would not share any existing infrastructure, and instead function as a standalone piece of infrastructure with elevated tracks and tunnels but no at-grade crossings with roads.

- The report determined that the system could be built within a preliminary 2017 estimate of between US$24 billion and US$42 billion, drawing between 1.7 million and 3.1 million one-way annual trips to begin with. With commuters opting for the electric rail system, carbon emissions would be reduced by an estimated 6 million tonnes in the first 40 years of operation. --- An exact route for the ultra high-speed system has not been determined but the report also floated possible stops in Surrey; Bellingham, Wash., and other cities south of the border. The study was funded by governments in B.C., Washington and Oregon, as well as Microsoft Corp. (Nasdaq: MSFT).

.....