Kapyong Barracks Discussion

[drew]

Originally Posted by Tacheguy

people are concerned about those remote reserves with limited economic capacity or potential. maybe urban reserves could be a part of the solution in terms of facilitating migration to the southern economy. not really a factor in this case though..

Absolutely. Anything that encourages people to move away from reserves and grow and prosper is fine by me.

The sooner the better.

[bomberjet]

I hope you're right Esquire. Leading back to my comment about hoping this turns out to be a model of future endeavours.

To date, there is nothing around here beyond gas bars and smaller casinos.

[Tacheguy]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

I hope you're right Esquire. Leading back to my comment about hoping this turns out to be a model of future endeavours.

To date, there is nothing around here beyond gas bars and smaller casinos.

have you seen Tsawwassen Mills? it isn't shabby at all.

[bomberjet]

To be fair, that's not around here.

Like I said, I hope everything turns out fantastic and the development is a huge success.

[esquire]

^ Good point re Tsawwassen Mills, I forgot about that one.

Originally Posted by bomberjet

I hope you're right Esquire. Leading back to my comment about hoping this turns out to be a model of future endeavours.

To date, there is nothing around here beyond gas bars and smaller casinos.

I think a lot of perceptions of urban reserves are shaped by small town developments. Most small town developments, at least in this province, tend to be kind of janky and amateurish. I grew up cottaging in Winnipeg Beach and it seemed that every summer someone would open a terribly thought out business that would fail after a few months. Whatever got built was kind of lame and rarely rose above corrugated metal or other rural-type design. And so it is with rural reserves and their janky gas bars and smoke shops.

But it's a lot different with desirable urban land. The developers are going to come looking for the Treaty 1 FNs and they're going to have some good development ideas up their sleeves. There will be a lot of good proposals floated and they will end up bringing in a lot of money. And that's ultimately what will carry the day here.

[rrskylar]

Originally Posted by drew

Absolutely. Anything that encourages people to move away from reserves and grow and prosper is fine by me.

The sooner the better.

Chiefs and band council members mostly live off reserve to the detriment of those still stuck there but then again chiefs and band council members would hardly want band members knowing where they actually live right?!?

Pallister has already said no more casino's so how a new casino gets opened up on the Kapyong site remains a puzzle! A lot of you guys truly are clueless and naive to what actually goes on!

[Tacheguy]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ Good point re Tsawwassen Mills, I forgot about that one.



I think a lot of perceptions of urban reserves are shaped by small town developments. Most small town developments, at least in this province, tend to be kind of janky and amateurish. I grew up cottaging in Winnipeg Beach and it seemed that every summer someone would open a terribly thought out business that would fail after a few months. Whatever got built was kind of lame and rarely rose above corrugated metal or other rural-type design. And so it is with rural reserves and their janky gas bars and smoke shops.

But it's a lot different with desirable urban land. The developers are going to come looking for the Treaty 1 FNs and they're going to have some good development ideas up their sleeves. There will be a lot of good proposals floated and they will end up bringing in a lot of money. And that's ultimately what will carry the day here.

I agree. this could mean a lot of investment and construction coming into the city. I look forward to seeing what emerges. I hope the city has enough good people left to negotiate a sensible framework agreement. they make me nervous these days. if any community should be under third party management it is probably the city of Winnipeg.

[drew]

Originally Posted by rrskylar

Chiefs and band council members mostly live off reserve to the detriment of those still stuck there but then again chiefs and band council members would hardly want band members knowing where they actually live right?!?

Pallister has already said no more casino's so how a new casino gets opened up on the Kapyong site remains a puzzle! A lot of you guys truly are clueless and naive to what actually goes on!

I have a pretty long and pessimistic post on this thread you can re-read if you want, but you can be assured that I am certainly not naive with respect to working both on and with Reserves.

[Wpg_Guy]

The First Nations in Manitoba do not have the experience or the foresight to manage a development of this scale and get it right imo, that's why all we have heard from them so far is gas station and casino. I would feel much more comfortable if Canada Lands was involved in overseeing this project. I hate to say this but because Winnipeg never gets anything right i feel like this is going to be a huge lost opportunity to create a real forward thinking development.

[Ando]

They don’t have to. They can work with a developer. Urban reserves have been super successful in Saskatoon. Why don’t we wait to see what evolves before panicking?

[Wigglez]

Question for everyone: What benefit to Winnipeg will this have?

1 - Will an urban reserve be exempt from taxes? property taxes? utility expenses? (city/provincial/federal)
2 - Will non-native Canadians be allowed to own land/business within this reserve?
3 - Does anything they want to do/build require approval (city/provincial) the same way everything else does?

Thanks

P.S. I honestly want to know the answers to those questions before I form an opinion.

[thurmas]

I am not holding my breath on this project when its politicians and Manitoba band chiefs planning this massive project out. At this point I just want to see the bloody road widened already and have the speed limit increased to 60kms.

[borkborkbork]

Here's what I could find with a quick search.

Originally Posted by Wigglez

1 - Will an urban reserve be exempt from taxes? property taxes? utility expenses? (city/provincial/federal)

"Land set apart as an urban reserve typically involves a number of agreements that have been negotiated between individual First Nations and the municipality. A municipal servicing agreement is particularly important because it provides a fee for services such as water, garbage collection, police and fire protection, in an amount which is generally equivalent to the amount the municipality would have collected through property taxes"

"The same sales tax exemptions that apply to reserves in rural areas also apply to urban reserves. Under current tax law, First Nations businesses located on reserve are required to collect provincial and federal sales tax and are subject to all the applicable taxes outlined by law or the servicing agreement negotiated with the municipality. Only registered Status Indians can take advantage of the sales tax exemption when purchasing goods and services on reserve land"

(source)

Originally Posted by Wigglez

2 - Will non-native Canadians be allowed to own land/business within this reserve?

As far as I can tell, they can't own the *land* but they can own businesses:

"Business set up on urban reserves are often a mixture of First Nation and non-First Nation owned and operated."

(source)

Originally Posted by Wigglez

3 - Does anything they want to do/build require approval (city/provincial) the same way everything else does?

Doesn't sound like it necessarily has to, but in terms of how they've been developed in the past, they almost always do:

" It is necessary to understand that although the land is under the jurisdiction of the First Nation, both the First Nation and the municipal government enter into a compatibility agreement which addresses all issues of zoning bylaws, building codes and other municipal regulations. As discussed above, most agreements specify that land use and development will be the same as if the land were not reserve land."

(source)

[Wigglez]

Originally Posted by borkborkbork

Here's what I could find with a quick search.



"Land set apart as an urban reserve typically involves a number of agreements that have been negotiated between individual First Nations and the municipality. A municipal servicing agreement is particularly important because it provides a fee for services such as water, garbage collection, police and fire protection, in an amount which is generally equivalent to the amount the municipality would have collected through property taxes"

"The same sales tax exemptions that apply to reserves in rural areas also apply to urban reserves. Under current tax law, First Nations businesses located on reserve are required to collect provincial and federal sales tax and are subject to all the applicable taxes outlined by law or the servicing agreement negotiated with the municipality. Only registered Status Indians can take advantage of the sales tax exemption when purchasing goods and services on reserve land"

(source)




As far as I can tell, they can't own the *land* but they can own businesses:

"Business set up on urban reserves are often a mixture of First Nation and non-First Nation owned and operated."

(source)



Doesn't sound like it necessarily has to, but in terms of how they've been developed in the past, they almost always do:

" It is necessary to understand that although the land is under the jurisdiction of the First Nation, both the First Nation and the municipal government enter into a compatibility agreement which addresses all issues of zoning bylaws, building codes and other municipal regulations. As discussed above, most agreements specify that land use and development will be the same as if the land were not reserve land."

(source)

Thank you!!!

That's pretty much all I need to know for this project. If the city is really intent on spending half a billion dollars to widen/improve route 90 to better service the area, and the reserve will pay civic taxes to help pay for that upgrade then whatever.

[trueviking]

What about banks I wonder. Would they give you a mortgage on reserve land.

[trueviking]

Originally Posted by thurmas

I am not holding my breath on this project when its politicians and Manitoba band chiefs planning this massive project out. At this point I just want to see the bloody road widened already and have the speed limit increased to 60kms.

Shoot for the stars.

[borkborkbork]

Originally Posted by trueviking

What about banks I wonder. Would they give you a mortgage on reserve land.

I think it would depend on how things are set up.

From Tsawwassen:

"In the private sector, land tenure has been key to attracting private sector financing. Recently, we partnered with Ivanhoé Cambridge, which is developing a significant commercial project on Tsawwassen land. In 2014, it was recognized as the largest single real estate investment in British Columbia valued at about $650 million. It was significant for a First Nation as well as the province. Understanding how Tsawwassen's land ownership model integrates with the provincial land title framework was key for them to be able to get things like the land title insurance they needed to ensure that their significant investment in Tsawwassen lands was not at risk and that they had comfort. Land tenure certainly helped do that."

https://sencanada.ca/en/Content/Sen/...2/appa/52015-e (scroll down to Colin Ward's testimony)

FYI I'm just googling this, I have no actual idea. It's just interesting to me...

[trueviking]

Interesting. I don’t see the value of a reserve to be honest. Except maybe the gas station casino piece. If it is to be a residential area with hopes of attracting all winnipeggers I would think the most return would come from developing it without reserve status.

[OTA in Winnipeg]

Originally Posted by thurmas

i am not holding my breath on this project when its politicians and manitoba band chiefs planning this massive project out. At this point i just want to see the bloody road widened already and have the speed limit increased to 60kms.

70

[plrh]

Originally Posted by OTA in Winnipeg

70

The speed limit on that stretch makes no difference most of the time. It could be 110 and you wouldn't be going any faster.