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  #2041  
Old Posted Jan 5, 2018, 2:24 PM
milomilo milomilo is offline
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I do have one faint, naive, hope. The technology already exists to make both driverless cars and automated trains. Combining the two together to make a driverless LRT is well within the means of technology, especially by 2026. So we could have automated vehicles on the Green Line, if we were brave enough.
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  #2042  
Old Posted Jan 5, 2018, 2:32 PM
milomilo milomilo is offline
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Originally Posted by The Chemist View Post
Almost all Asian systems are quite new, yet there are very few automated lines even in Asia. For example, there's not a single fully automated line on the Shanghai Metro, which is only 25 years old.
I can't explain that, maybe because labour is cheaper? But if these trains have automatic train operation then the drivers are there simply 'to be there' and operate the doors. That is not an efficient use of money.
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  #2043  
Old Posted Jan 5, 2018, 4:48 PM
DoubleK DoubleK is offline
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Milomilo: Thanks for the video, I must have missed that the when it came out.

Who actually makes the decision on the technology? Council based on the recommendation of staff?
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  #2044  
Old Posted Jan 5, 2018, 8:59 PM
BlaineN BlaineN is offline
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You are 100% correct on that. I've ridden a few systems that are low floor (Houston and Dallas) and don't see at all what the big deal is. The cars I was in had more than one level on the inside of the cars. Not sure if ours would be like that or not, but what a pain.

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Originally Posted by milomilo View Post
In the beginning, the line was envisioned to be mostly surface level, so a low floor design was deemed more appropriate, and is also what all the other cool cities are doing. I believe it was actually decided before the SELRT/SETWAY and NCLRT were even one project. However as design progressed and they sensibly realised that it would be best to mostly grade separate the line, they did not stop to question whether those (exaggerated) benefits of low floor design were neccesary.

Really the route should have been decided first, and then an appropriate technology choice decided after. But Druh Farrell et al. had their heart set on low floor from the beginning, as they want a cool hipster tram like Portland. Three of them actually went to Vancouver, Seattle and Portland and somehow decided that Vancouver's vastly better system was worse than the LRTs in the US cities. Madness.

Video Link
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  #2045  
Old Posted Jan 5, 2018, 9:39 PM
CrossedTheTracks CrossedTheTracks is offline
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To be somewhat charitable, I'm pretty sure Druh doesn't love low floors "because they're low floor", but because they enable stations that can fit into her ideal vision of an urban environment.

That stage 1 will have so few such stations certainly weakens the argument, but in any case, the real disagreement isn't about the position of the floor in the train, but whether you think the trains should integrate into an urban fabric or be separated from it. Obviously Druh and milomilo disagree fundamentally!
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  #2046  
Old Posted Jan 5, 2018, 9:49 PM
topdog topdog is offline
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Im pretty sure she likes them because it’s the funky hipster thing of the moment, her minions will blow blindly go along with whatever she says.
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Originally Posted by CrossedTheTracks View Post
To be somewhat charitable, I'm pretty sure Druh doesn't love low floors "because they're low floor", but because they enable stations that can fit into her ideal vision of an urban environment.

That stage 1 will have so few such stations certainly weakens the argument, but in any case, the real disagreement isn't about the position of the floor in the train, but whether you think the trains should integrate into an urban fabric or be separated from it. Obviously Druh and milomilo disagree fundamentally!
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  #2047  
Old Posted Jan 5, 2018, 9:49 PM
Corndogger Corndogger is offline
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Originally Posted by CrossedTheTracks View Post
To be somewhat charitable, I'm pretty sure Druh doesn't love low floors "because they're low floor", but because they enable stations that can fit into her ideal vision of an urban environment.

That stage 1 will have so few such stations certainly weakens the argument, but in any case, the real disagreement isn't about the position of the floor in the train, but whether you think the trains should integrate into an urban fabric or be separated from it. Obviously Druh and milomilo disagree fundamentally!
Druh could care less about the south part of the line. In her area she wants the train to disrupt traffic as much as possible--don't forget she was a huge advocate for putting it down the middle of the Center Street bridge and reducing it two lanes.

Like I've said before, I'm really surprised that people haven't picked up on what a complete disaster this is going to be. People in the far north think they are going to have a somewhat rapid ride into downtown which is just not going to be the case. I don't see anyone "winning" under this plan other than Druh and of course she'll be long gone before it's built.
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  #2048  
Old Posted Jan 5, 2018, 9:56 PM
BlaineN BlaineN is offline
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I agree. Druh might be thinking of the urban fabric, but she's not thinking of the big picture and as usual only cares about one small part of the city. The whole green line end to end would be far better served by the existing train cars. The low floor thing is just an artsy fartsy fad.

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Originally Posted by topdog View Post
Im pretty sure she likes them because it’s the funky hipster thing of the moment, her minions will blow blindly go along with whatever she says.
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Originally Posted by Corndogger View Post
Druh could care less about the south part of the line. In her area she wants the train to disrupt traffic as much as possible--don't forget she was a huge advocate for putting it down the middle of the Center Street bridge and reducing it two lanes.

Like I've said before, I'm really surprised that people haven't picked up on what a complete disaster this is going to be. People in the far north think they are going to have a somewhat rapid ride into downtown which is just not going to be the case. I don't see anyone "winning" under this plan other than Druh and of course she'll be long gone before it's built.
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  #2049  
Old Posted Jan 5, 2018, 10:26 PM
milomilo milomilo is offline
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Originally Posted by CrossedTheTracks View Post
Obviously Druh and milomilo disagree fundamentally!
Definitely! I've come to realise that one of the biggest urbanist myths is that the rail infrastructure itself is what makes a place walkable, or urban. But this is not true! It's the access to public transit that is what matters, not actually having the rails outside the shops.

To be honest, I'm not necessarily fundamentally opposed to low floor LRT, it just has to be in the right context - which the Green Line is not. A low floor LRT down 17th Ave SE would probably work great. And if money was no object, I'd love a network of streetcars instead of buses - but money is an object and the you have to look at the value for money of these things. As I see it, the only true advantage an LRT has over a full metro is that it is cheaper - so if it is not cheap ($5B for half the Green Line certainly isn't!) then what is the point?

I am glad the Green Line is happening and think it will be great for the city, and the route that has been decided is pretty much bang on, I just think we have caused it to be flawed for no good reason. That the line ended up being too expensive and needs to be staged I think is a blessing in disguise, as it will allow us to look more critically at the surface running on Centre St.
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  #2050  
Old Posted Jan 5, 2018, 10:35 PM
topdog topdog is offline
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Thank you for pointing this out in a logical fashion rather than an emotional one. If I had a nickel for every fool who blindly followed the cool hip trends even though they weren’t the right trends, I’d be a millionnaire
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Originally Posted by milomilo View Post
Definitely! I've come to realise that one of the biggest urbanist myths is that the rail infrastructure itself is what makes a place walkable, or urban. But this is not true! It's the access to public transit that is what matters, not actually having the rails outside the shops.

To be honest, I'm not necessarily fundamentally opposed to low floor LRT, it just has to be in the right context - which the Green Line is not. A low floor LRT down 17th Ave SE would probably work great. And if money was no object, I'd love a network of streetcars instead of buses - but money is an object and the you have to look at the value for money of these things. As I see it, the only true advantage an LRT has over a full metro is that it is cheaper - so if it is not cheap ($5B for half the Green Line certainly isn't!) then what is the point?

I am glad the Green Line is happening and think it will be great for the city, and the route that has been decided is pretty much bang on, I just think we have caused it to be flawed for no good reason. That the line ended up being too expensive and needs to be staged I think is a blessing in disguise, as it will allow us to look more critically at the surface running on Centre St.
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  #2051  
Old Posted Jan 5, 2018, 11:47 PM
YYCguys YYCguys is online now
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With the route that has been decided upon, when all stages are constructed, what is the proposed length of time from the north terminus to downtown and from downtown to the south terminus, using low floor technology? Would that change with high floor trains (ie: does one train run faster than the other)?
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  #2052  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2018, 1:28 AM
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You Need A Thneed You Need A Thneed is offline
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Originally Posted by YYCguys View Post
With the route that has been decided upon, when all stages are constructed, what is the proposed length of time from the north terminus to downtown and from downtown to the south terminus, using low floor technology? Would that change with high floor trains (ie: does one train run faster than the other)?
In today’s technology, there is essentially no operating difference between low floor and high floor. They are the same size, run the same speed, and both would have no interior steps at all.

The lower floors could potentially mean that the bored tunnels could be a slightly smaller size, which could save some money. Slightly smaller stations will save a bit of money as well.

If the system is not going to be automated, there is essentially no difference between high floor and low floor other than what I’ve already mentioned.

The question still remains: what should the line look like through North Calgary? For the amount of disruption construction as planned is going to cause, the additional disruption of a cut and cover tunnel shouldn’t be the end of the world. Full cut and cover between 20th Ave and 64th Ave will cost a lot, but the vity’s Plans already have grade separations at major intersections (eg McKnight).

It’s almost certainly worth looking at the cost differences between what is currently planned and complete grade separation that would allow for automation. Costs over 30 years that is.

Though the current plan shouldn’t be slow through north Calgary, either. The line has its own dedicated ROW for the whole route, and likely would have full signal priority, like the other lines outside of downtown do. Traffic lanes will be affected, but outside of rush hour, most of that stretch only has one traffic lane even now.

With the tightness of the right of way, if the line remains at grade, the smaller scale low platforms will help the station areas fit into their areas.
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  #2053  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2018, 1:32 AM
accord1999 accord1999 is offline
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Originally Posted by milomilo View Post
That the line ended up being too expensive and needs to be staged I think is a blessing in disguise, as it will allow us to look more critically at the surface running on Centre St.
I recall reading a number of posts about this section of the line and some alternatives but was there an agreement about the best option? Would it be a continuation of the tunnel to McKnight?

I'm concerned with how LRTontheGreen reported that going just from 16th Av to 96th will cost nearly $2B with the current track configuration, when and if the City will ever have the funds to build a proper NC line.
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  #2054  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2018, 1:52 AM
Corndogger Corndogger is offline
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Originally Posted by accord1999 View Post
I recall reading a number of posts about this section of the line and some alternatives but was there an agreement about the best option? Would it be a continuation of the tunnel to McKnight?

I'm concerned with how LRTontheGreen reported that going just from 16th Av to 96th will cost nearly $2B with the current track configuration, when and if the City will ever have the funds to build a proper NC line.
$2B sounds way too high unless they're also building storage facilities and including that in the costs.
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  #2055  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2018, 1:55 AM
accord1999 accord1999 is offline
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$2B sounds way too high unless they're also building storage facilities and including that in the costs.
I've haven't watched the council meeting video to confirm the number but the $2B is from this tweet:

https://twitter.com/LRTontheGreen/st...47162858766336
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  #2056  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2018, 4:16 AM
milomilo milomilo is offline
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Originally Posted by accord1999 View Post
I recall reading a number of posts about this section of the line and some alternatives but was there an agreement about the best option? Would it be a continuation of the tunnel to McKnight?

I'm concerned with how LRTontheGreen reported that going just from 16th Av to 96th will cost nearly $2B with the current track configuration, when and if the City will ever have the funds to build a proper NC line.
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Originally Posted by accord1999 View Post
I've haven't watched the council meeting video to confirm the number but the $2B is from this tweet:

https://twitter.com/LRTontheGreen/st...47162858766336
I find anything that Sean Chu is within 20 feet of is hard to take seriously, but in fairness 5km of tunneling will not be cheap (I think you'd only need to tunnel to 64th, after that there is ROW). But I'd rather we waited to figure out a proper solution to this than cheap out and ruin the whole line.
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  #2057  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2018, 4:59 AM
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Seems to me the delegation went to Seattle, Portland and Vancouver with their minds already made. Something they have to consider (and clearly have not) is that transit ridership in Canada is much higher than the US, so these tramways that work in Portland will not have the necessary capacity for Calgary.

Ottawa did the same thing, with the mayor and a few councilors visiting a few cities to compare systems and again, they already knew what they wanted to do here, so it wasn't much more than a series of free trip on the tax payers dime.

Based on the video, it seems they only considered Vancouver's Canada Line, not the whole Skytrain System. Seems like their methodology was pretty flawed.

I agree that elevated guideways can be an eyesore if not done correctly (Vancouver's hit or miss, mostly wide structures with huge pillars, while the Sunalta section in Calgary is as good as it gets with a narrower guideway and slim pillars).

The way I see it though, if you're going to build light rail on the street, having to stop at red lights and letting people cross the tracks, might as well build BRT. Pretty much the same capacity, but for much cheaper and offers more flexibility in case of an accident along the corridor.

I think Ottawa is doing it right (and that's a rare thing). We are using low floor lrt for maximum flexibility*. It allows us to build at grade where possible, but still fully grade separated. The system is built to rapid transit standards, with platforms at 90 meters surface, 120 underground, expandable to 150 meters, capacity ranging from 18,000 to a full build out of 24,000. The system is automated, but with a driver in case of emergency (one day, it could be fully automated like Vancouver).

One problem with a low floor system is that it makes it easier for people to walk on the rail right of way, either to cross the street, cross the station or maybe even accidentally stepping down form the curb/platform. Ottawa mitigated this two ways; 1. all stations have a barrier between the two tracks and 2. Tracks are not embedded in the concrete, but set on top of the bed, which makes for a 2-3 foot drop to the rail bed, so not as intimidating or dangerous as rapid transit, but high enough to deter people from stepping down on the tracks.

*Full disclosure, they chose low floor lrt in order to run the trains on the Ottawa River Parkway (now the John A. Macdonald Parkway). This is currently the bus route (temporary solution 35 years in), about 3 kilometers with no stations, bypassing some of the densest areas in Ottawa. With the new train line, 2 stations would have been added, but they would have been a long, cold hike away from development. Luckily, logic prevailed in the form of the National Capital Commission, a Federal Government body that owns the Parkway, forcing the City to come up with a different route. The City had a long, multi year debate similar to Calgary's with Centre Street (Carling Avenue vs. Richmond Road, surface, elevated or underground). Ottawa came up with what I was rooting for since years before, the Richmond Underground where the two stations could actually be integrated with the community. This link shows roughly what we're ending up with (a few modifications have been done since). The Sir John A. Parkway is the winding road on the north end of the diagram.
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  #2058  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2018, 6:45 AM
accord1999 accord1999 is offline
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Originally Posted by milomilo View Post
I find anything that Sean Chu is within 20 feet of is hard to take seriously, but in fairness 5km of tunneling will not be cheap (I think you'd only need to tunnel to 64th, after that there is ROW). But I'd rather we waited to figure out a proper solution to this than cheap out and ruin the whole line.
To be fair to Chu, that was him asking the question and the City Admin answering with $1.97B. A CBC reporter also tweeted the same number, plus added a value $390 million to go to North Pointe (which seems expensive for only about 2.5 km of track in a LRT-ready area plus station). Though, the City Admin hasn't exactly been accurate in its cost estimates.

https://twitter.com/CBCScott/status/864246865944088576

Add in a tunnel for the narrow part of Centre St and we're looking at $3B for a good NC line with a reasonable terminus, plus the cost to reach the populated communities for the deep SE. My concern is with such a cost, and given how long it took the city to assemble the original funding and other infrastructure needs is that the NC line won't be built for another generation.
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  #2059  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2018, 10:59 PM
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Originally Posted by BlaineN View Post
I agree. Druh might be thinking of the urban fabric, but she's not thinking of the big picture and as usual only cares about one small part of the city. The whole green line end to end would be far better served by the existing train cars. The low floor thing is just an artsy fartsy fad.
Since when are Mods supposed to push their politics on other members?
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  #2060  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2018, 12:19 AM
sammyd sammyd is offline
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Since when are Mods supposed to push their politics on other members?
Snowflake alert in aisle 3
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