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View Poll Results: Which of the following cities do you think could join the Big Canadian Cities Ranking
Barrie (ON) 10 7.25%
Kelowna (BC) 39 28.26%
Sudbury (ON) 2 1.45%
Kingston (ON) 9 6.52%
Saguenay (QC) 1 0.72%
Trois Rivieres (QC) 2 1.45%
Guelph (ON) 13 9.42%
Abbotsford-Mission (BC) 8 5.80%
Moncton (NB) 13 9.42%
Brantford (ON) 0 0%
Saint John (NB) 4 2.90%
Peterborough (ON) 1 0.72%
Thunder Bay (ON) 3 2.17%
Lethbridge (AB) 4 2.90%
Nanaimo (BC) 2 1.45%
Kamloops (BC) 1 0.72%
Belleville (ON) 1 0.72%
Chatham-Kent (ON) 1 0.72%
Fredericton (NB) 1 0.72%
Chilliwack (BC) 1 0.72%
Red Deer (AB) 12 8.70%
Cape Breton (NS) 0 0%
Sarnia (ON) 1 0.72%
Drummondville (QC) 2 1.45%
None of the Above (write in your candidate) 7 5.07%
Voters: 138. You may not vote on this poll

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  #181  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2017, 3:15 AM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post


Interesting - I myself have often said that I find Moncton to be the least Maritime of all Atlantic Canadian cities, and indeed would fit in quite well on the Prairies. It's young, dynamic, optimistic, flat and not an ocean port.

Despite not being on the ocean though, the Northumberland Straight is only 15 minutes away, and the Bay of Fundy is only 30 minutes away, so it's still easy to get your Maritime "fix", and the seafood is always fresh......
Don't you find Fredericton is sort of non-Atlantic as well? It could be Guelph Ontario.
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  #182  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2017, 3:24 AM
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Don't you find Fredericton is sort of non-Atlantic as well? It could be Guelph Ontario.
Indeed - not a traditional Maritime city, but different and more established than Moncton (provincial legislature building, Anglican Cathedral, University of NB, the Garrison District downtown, the Playhouse and the Lord Beaverbrook Art Gallery.

Fredericton strikes me less an Ontario city (except for Kingston perhaps). If I was to guess, it feels vaguely more New England in character.........

Moncton really didn't start growing until the 1860s, and as such, it's growth characteristics are more like western Canadian cities that grew at about the same time......
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  #183  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2017, 3:31 AM
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It might be worthwhile discussing the zeros (as currently not chosen) and the reasons for which they are not Candidates. They are, in order of listing (and my 2 cents in parentheses): Saguenay (too remote, zilch immigration), Brantford (might surprise us...it is geographically 'blessed')), Kamloops (really?I think it is a potential dark horse), Chilliwack (I am surprised: improved rail connections to Van would boost this city significantly) and Cape Breton (so sad, no chance).
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  #184  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2017, 3:35 AM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
Indeed - not a traditional Maritime city, but different and more established than Moncton (provincial legislature building, Anglican Cathedral, University of NB, the Garrison District downtown, the Playhouse and the Lord Beaverbrook Art Gallery.

Fredericton strikes me less an Ontario city (except for Kingston perhaps). If I was to guess, it feels vaguely more New England in character.........

Moncton really didn't start growing until the 1860s, and as such, it's growth characteristics are more like western Canadian cities that grew at about the same time......
Kingston is another good Freddy comparable.
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  #185  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2017, 4:54 AM
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Originally Posted by MolsonExport View Post
It might be worthwhile discussing the zeros (as currently not chosen) and the reasons for which they are not Candidates. They are, in order of listing (and my 2 cents in parentheses): Saguenay (too remote, zilch immigration), Brantford (might surprise us...it is geographically 'blessed')), Kamloops (really?I think it is a potential dark horse), Chilliwack (I am surprised: improved rail connections to Van would boost this city significantly) and Cape Breton (so sad, no chance).
I agree with Saguenay just too remote it is near or at negative for population growth. I would put Barrie,Brantford and Peterborough more like suburbs of Toronto. While in the same sense I would place Abbotsford, Chilliwack and Nanaimo as suburbs of Vancouver they will be overflow as well as retirement areas for those selling in the Toronto or Vancouver area so they have great growth potential.

I really like Kamloops and Red Deer ( though the later between Calgary and Edmonton is kind of like the Vancouver and Toronto extra suburbs). Just my two cents.

Kamloops is a nice area but relatively inexpensive compared to Kelowna. I could see Kelowna slowing down in growth then Kamloops picking up the slack.
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  #186  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2017, 4:58 AM
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Originally Posted by MolsonExport View Post
It might be worthwhile discussing the zeros (as currently not chosen) and the reasons for which they are not Candidates. They are, in order of listing (and my 2 cents in parentheses): Saguenay (too remote, zilch immigration), Brantford (might surprise us...it is geographically 'blessed')), Kamloops (really?I think it is a potential dark horse), Chilliwack (I am surprised: improved rail connections to Van would boost this city significantly) and Cape Breton (so sad, no chance).
I am also surprised by Kamloops, as it definitely has potential (it has a decent climate for Canadian standards and is very well served by highway corridors).

I think it has no votes simply because it is overshadowed by Kelowna.

As for Chilliwack, maybe because many see it as simply becoming an extension of Metro-Vancouver in the future (it is more distinct than Abbotsford but in all honestly everything in the Fraser Valley is becoming an extension of Metro-Vancouver these days).
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  #187  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2017, 5:17 AM
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I also like the bones of Kamloops as well as Prince George. They are older and more mature than Kelowna or Abbotsford whom have outgrown their city cores.
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  #188  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2017, 5:36 PM
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As for Chilliwack, maybe because many see it as simply becoming an extension of Metro-Vancouver in the future (it is more distinct than Abbotsford but in all honestly everything in the Fraser Valley is becoming an extension of Metro-Vancouver these days).
I guess it's to be expected because they are not very old, but Chilliwack and Abbotsford are extremely suburban and have unremarkable urban cores for how large and far away from metro Vancouver they are. They are not really within commuting distance (or at least I doubt that many people are commuting from Chilliwack) but they feel like bedroom communities of somewhere else.

Nanaimo could theoretically grow a lot too but like almost everywhere else in BC it's wedged in next to mountains and doesn't have much easily developed land. Even if it only doubled in size while remaining about as densely built up as it is now most of the arable land nearby would be gone.
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  #189  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2017, 5:46 PM
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Don't you find Fredericton is sort of non-Atlantic as well? It could be Guelph Ontario.
I have always thought of Atlantic Canada as having three zones as far as environment and overall feel. There are the full-on Atlantic parts, the Atlantic side of NS (basically the areas where there is less agriculture; the "ironbound coast") and NF, there's the Fundy and Northumberland area, then there's the inland part of NB that is a transitional zone, partway to being Central Canada.

As far as the economy goes in the Maritimes there are two tracks. Either you're within an hour or so of the central corridor that goes Halifax-Truro-Moncton-Fredericton or you're not. Excluded places include areas like extreme Western NS, Cape Breton, and Northern New Brunswick. Saint John meanwhile is an economic underperformer compared to the rest of the central part of the region but still does better than the outlying parts.
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  #190  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2017, 7:54 PM
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I have always thought of Atlantic Canada as having three zones as far as environment and overall feel. There are the full-on Atlantic parts, the Atlantic side of NS (basically the areas where there is less agriculture; the "ironbound coast") and NF, there's the Fundy and Northumberland area, then there's the inland part of NB that is a transitional zone, partway to being Central Canada.

As far as the economy goes in the Maritimes there are two tracks. Either you're within an hour or so of the central corridor that goes Halifax-Truro-Moncton-Fredericton or you're not. Excluded places include areas like extreme Western NS, Cape Breton, and Northern New Brunswick. Saint John meanwhile is an economic underperformer compared to the rest of the central part of the region but still does better than the outlying parts.
I would agree with all this. I like your three zone model. For the central zone, there really is a lot of commonality between PEI, the Northumberland Coast of northern NS and the east coast of NB. This area can all be considered the "Maritime Plain". For econogeographical reasons, this can be extended to include the Annapolis Valley and Musquoidoboit Valleys of NS. The main cities would be Moncton and Charlottetown.

The Atlantic Coast of NS and Cape Breton would be it's own physiogeographic entity, characterized by the seacoast, oceanic climate and rocky infertile soils. The main cities would be Halifax and Sydney.

Finally, northern and western NB is full on continental, and characterized by the rolling countryside of the Appalachian Mountains. The main cities would be Fredericton and (by default) Saint John.
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  #191  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2017, 8:14 PM
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Whitehorse should have been on this list. I'm not sure why but I've been drawn to this place since I was a young child.
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  #192  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2017, 8:24 PM
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I guess it's to be expected because they are not very old, but Chilliwack and Abbotsford are extremely suburban and have unremarkable urban cores for how large and far away from metro Vancouver they are. They are not really within commuting distance (or at least I doubt that many people are commuting from Chilliwack) but they feel like bedroom communities of somewhere else.

Nanaimo could theoretically grow a lot too but like almost everywhere else in BC it's wedged in next to mountains and doesn't have much easily developed land. Even if it only doubled in size while remaining about as densely built up as it is now most of the arable land nearby would be gone.
Abbotsford is extremely unappealing. It competes on cost relative to Vancouver, but it's still expensive in absolute terms. It's ugly. It rains even more than Vancouver. The summer is nice, but it's a furnace. It doesn't have interesting stores, restaurants or services. Finally, it's not even close to Vancouver! You can commute to Surrey, I guess.
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  #193  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2017, 8:50 PM
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One of my best friends commutes from Abbotsford every day to Vancouver for work, but she's a morning show dj at a top 40 FM station so she's on the road really early. Her partner has a good job in Chilliwack, so that's why they live there

Plus they like it. They just adopted a baby and wanted a more suburban environment. Things change when your priorities change
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  #194  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2017, 9:01 PM
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For econogeographical reasons, this can be extended to include the Annapolis Valley and Musquoidoboit Valleys of NS. The main cities would be Moncton and Charlottetown.
Sam Slick addressed this in 1836:

How's times to Halifax, Sir, said I—better, says he, much better, business is done on a surer bottom than it was, and things look bright agin; so does a candle, says I, jist afore it goes out; it burns up ever so high and then sinks right down, and leaves nothin behind but grease, and an everlastin bad smell. I guess they don't know how to feed their lamp, and it can't burn long on nothin. No, Sir, the jig is up with Halifax, and it's all their own fault. If a man sits at his door, and sees stray cattle in his field, a eatin up of his crop, and his neighbours, a cartin off his grain, and won't so much as go and drive 'em out, why I should say it sarves him right. I don't exactly understand, Sir, said he—thinks I, it would be strange if you did, for I never see one of your folks yet that could understand a hawk from a handsaw. Well, says I, I will tell you what I mean—draw a line from Cape Sable to Cape Cansoo, right thro' the Province, and it will split it into two, this way, and I cut an apple into two halves; now, says I, the worst half, like the rotten half of the apple, belongs to Halifax, and the other and sound half belongs to St. John. Your side of the province on the sea coast is all stone—I never seed such a pro per sight of rocks in my life, it's enough to starve a rabbit. Well, tother side on the Bay of Fundy is a superfine country, there aint the beat of it to be found any where. Now, would'nt the folks living away up to the Bay, be pretty fools to go to Halifax, when they can go to St. John with half the trouble. St. John is the natural capital of the Bay of Fundy, it will be the largest city in America next to New York. It has an immense back country as big as Great Britain, a first chop river, and amazin sharp folks, most as cute as the Yankees—it's a splendid location for business. Well, they draw all the produce of the Bay shores, and where the produce goes the supplies return— it will take the whole trade of the Province; I guess your rich folks will find they've burnt their fingers, they've put their foot in it, that's a fact. Houses with out tenants—wharves without shipping, a town without people—what a grand investment!! If you have any loose dollars, let 'em out on mortgage in Halifax, that's the security—keep clear of the country for your life—the people may run, but the town can't. No, take away the troops, and you're done—you'll sing the dead march folks did at Louisburg and Shelburne. Why you hant got a single thing worth havin, but a good harbor, and as for that the coast is full on 'em. You hav'nt a pine log, a spruce board or a refuse shingle; you neither raise wheat, oats, or hay, nor never can; you have no staples on airth, unless it be them iron ones for the padlocks, in Bridewell—you've sowed pride and reaped poverty, take care of your crop, for it's worth harvestin—you have no River and no Country, what in the name of fortin have you to trade on? But, said he, (and he shewed the whites of his eyes like a wall eyed horse) but, said he, Mr. Slick, how is it then, Halifax ever grew at all, has'nt it got what it always had; it's no worse than it was. I guess, said I, that pole aint strong enough to bear you, neither; if you trust to that you'll be into the brook, as sure as you are born; you once had the trade of the whole Province, but St. John has run off with that now—you've lost all but your trade in blue berries and rabbits with the niggers at Hammond Plains. You've lost your customers, your rivals have a better stand for business—they've got the corner store—four great streets meet there, and its near the market slip.

But things changed a lot over the next couple decades of the 19th century. A two day long journey by horse and buggy turned into a two hour train trip and it was easy to go from all of the farming areas to the cities in the region.
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  #195  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2017, 9:47 PM
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They are not really within commuting distance (or at least I doubt that many people are commuting from Chilliwack) but they feel like bedroom communities of somewhere else.
I belly laughed. That's poetry.

I know such places well enough. All of the growing communities along the Trans Canada Highway here are drawing people from the peninsulas they're at the very bottom of. Whitbourne, Clarenville, Gander, Grand Falls-Windsor, Deer Lake, etc. They're all awful, soulless places that look and feel like there should be a large city just a few minutes down the road because why else could they look like this if they weren't built all at once in 1986?
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  #196  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2017, 4:25 AM
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I know such places well enough. All of the growing communities along the Trans Canada Highway here are drawing people from the peninsulas they're at the very bottom of. Whitbourne, Clarenville, Gander, Grand Falls-Windsor, Deer Lake, etc. They're all awful, soulless places that look and feel like there should be a large city just a few minutes down the road because why else could they look like this if they weren't built all at once in 1986?
Newfoundland is so strange that way. 500 years of history along the coast. 50 years of history along Highway 1.

It's funny that people from the outports would have moved to an anonymous population centre inland, rather than just to St. John's.
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  #197  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2017, 4:35 AM
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Whitehorse should have been on this list. I'm not sure why but I've been drawn to this place since I was a young child.
Whitehorse definitely has the best chances for a Territorial city and not just because it's already the largest.
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  #198  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2017, 9:47 AM
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Newfoundland is so strange that way. 500 years of history along the coast. 50 years of history along Highway 1.

It's funny that people from the outports would have moved to an anonymous population centre inland, rather than just to St. John's.
The reasons they give are often hilarious. My personal favourite is "St. John's is basically an inland city, you can't even see the sea except through the Narrows. I need to be by the sea!" in Whitbourne? Gander? Grand Falls-Windsor? Deer Lake? Sure...

I think people just didn't put any thought into it. Government didn't consider our culture and heritage in allowing these communities to grow, and even encouraging it. And people thought moving the shortest distance represented the least sacrifice and compromise. But it really didn't. I can't understand how people don't get gradually dragged down into depression living in a place like Gander, when they came from, say Newtown. To go from walkable, extreme beauty to living in your car between a bungalow, big box centre, and work?
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  #199  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2017, 9:59 AM
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Trois-Riviere (aka Quebec's Red Deer) pop 150K.

Mark my words, one day they're finally going to build that high frequency train between montreal and Qquebec, and when they do T-R will boom.

T-R reminds me of a mini-montreal plucked in the quebec wilderness. It's got it's seaport, it's got a university and a downtown with an old rail-station just waiting to be re-activated and it's even got its own pre-war scraper.


http://www.sdctr.qc.ca/content/cache/0x0/gal-1.jpg


http://images.lpcdn.ca/641x427/20130...re-indique.jpg

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  #200  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2017, 10:37 AM
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Newfoundland is so strange that way. 500 years of history along the coast. 50 years of history along Highway 1.

.
Behold the power of the dominant mode of transport of the day. Things have always been like that.
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