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  #41  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2014, 7:56 PM
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Few toughts on my list. I decided to sort the areas by population to make comparisons easier:


500,000 - 650,000

---------------------- GDP 2011 (US$) -- Pop. 2011

Des Moines ------------------ 40.691.000.000 -- 580.255

Madison --------------------- 36.526.000.000 -- 576.467

Portland -------------------- 29.713.000.000 -- 623.205

Wichita --------------------- 27.363.000.000 -- 625.526

Boise City ------------------ 27.203.000.000 -- 627.664


Campos dos Goytcazes ----- 26.806.000.000 -- 592.793

Huntsville ------------------ 26.064.000.000 -- 579.550

Jackson --------------------- 24.666.000.000 -- 545.394

South Bend ------------------ 21.893.000.000 -- 517.629

Cape Coral-Ft. Myers -------- 20.284.000.000 -- 631.330

Lancaster -------------------- 20.188.000.000 -- 523.594

Augusta ---------------------- 19.947.000.000 -- 561.858

Scranton-Wilkes ------------- 19.832.000.000 -- 563.223

Palm Bay-Melbourne --------- 18.519.000.000 -- 543.566

Youngstown ------------------ 17.101.000.000 -- 562.739

Lakeland ---------------------- 16.810.000.000 -- 609.492

Johnson City-Kingsport ------ 16.615.000.000 -- 509.611

Provo ------------------------- 16.228.000.000 -- 540.834

Port St.Lucie-Vero Beach --- 15.240.000.000 -- 566.768

Modesto --------------------- 15.618.000.000 -- 518.522


Itajaí-B.Camboriú ----------- 15.333.000.000 -- 583.695

Pelotas-Rio Grande ----------- 8.764.000.000 -- 603.535

Bauru ------------------------- 8.402.000.000 -- 565.145

Ipatinga ---------------------- 6.899.000.000 -- 559.711

Criciúma ---------------------- 6.667.000.000 -- 506.853

Cascavel-Toledo -------------- 6.662.000.000 -- 519.250

Macapá ----------------------- 4.273.000.000 -- 531.672

Ilhéus-Itabuna ---------------- 3.656.000.000 -- 527.982

Petrolina-Juazeiro ------------ 3.636.000.000 -- 544.605

Juazeiro do Norte-Crato ------ 2.810.000.000 -- 628.131



^^
--- Des Moines has an huge GDP per capita (over US$ 70,000). I guess it's do some insurance companies based plus the agribusiness. Very impressive;

--- Madison, very high GDP per capita as well. Not surprising though.

--- Campos dos Goytcazes (northeastern Rio de Janeiro) is one of the poorest regions on Southeast Brazil. As Brazilian oil production is all centered in the área, GDP is inflated (US$ 45,000 per capita), specially as 2011 when there was this huge surge on oil prices;

--- Youngstown, maybe the most devastated area in the Rust Belt with quite decente numbers, above US$ 30,000. Hope shale gas help them out;

--- Areas in Florida and central California posting very low GDP per capita, half of national average;

--- Itajaí-B.Camboriú (Santa Catarina coast) with a GDP per capita similar to American areas such as Lakeland, Provo and Modesto. It's a wealthy area, but the port of Itajaí push the GDP up;

--- On the bottom, we can see clearly the gap between Central-South and North-Northeast Brazil. Cities like Bauru (São Paulo state, university, services, hospitals, retail) and Cascavel (Paraná state, agribusiness, services, retail), with nothing inflating their GDP, post much higher numbers than Juazeiro do Norte (Ceará state).
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  #42  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2014, 8:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yuriandrade View Post
So Niterói is not Rio de Janeiro's metro, Oakland is not San Francisco's, etc.
Niterói is 12 miles from downtown Rio, with only a bridge to cross. Oakland is 11 miles from downtown San Francisco, with only a bridge to cross. Santos is 49 miles from downtown São Paulo, with a mountain range and jungle to cross.

Santos is the same distance from downtown São Paulo as Basel is from Zurich. And there isn't a mountain range to cross between Basel and Zurich.
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  #43  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2014, 8:11 PM
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20 miles from São Bernardo do Campo, and huge labour market. And why mention the jungle? It's not like people will follow Father Anchieta steps back in the XVI century. Also, I don't think people cross San Francisco Bay swimming.

We should be discussing your Moscow 50,000 km² metro area definition, not my tiny 12,500 km² São Paulo one. Liking or not, São Paulo metro area definition changed. 1970 is in a distant past.
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  #44  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2014, 8:18 PM
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Originally Posted by yuriandrade View Post
We should be discussing your Moscow 50,000 km² metro area definition
Already discussed on the first page.

I've never understood your desire to artificially enlarge São Paulo. Don't worry, sooner or later São Paulo will enter the top 10 of largest metropolitan economies in the world, but let it enter the top 10 on its own merits and not by artificially enlarging its metro area.
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  #45  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2014, 8:20 PM
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One can't just apply the same standards across national boundaries.

In the U.S., for example, 20 miles from a major city will still be part of the metro area. In Germany, highly questionable. In Mexico, probably no.

There are different spatial patterns of development and commuting.
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  #46  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2014, 8:25 PM
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Brisavoine, if you don't agree with my work, it's ok, but don't accuse me of pathetic bias. That's cheap and disrespectful. I had to much work organizing all those lists and I was extremely careful to find an uniform definition for 200 Brazilian metro areas over 100,000, which was extremely time-consuming. As far I know, nobody in the world has ever tried that.

If you believe São Paulo metro area frontiers remained unchanged since 1970 when it was three times less populated, and São Paulo metro definitions are million times smaller than others, that's your call. You're posting maps anyway, which show clearly how bizarre is your definitions.
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  #47  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2014, 9:03 PM
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650,000 - 800,000

-------------------- GDP 2011 (US$) -- Pop. 2011

Harrisburg ------------------ 32.606.000.000 -- 687.222

Columbia -------------------- 32.203.000.000 -- 777.116

Charleston ------------------ 28.902.000.000 -- 682.121

Toledo ---------------------- 28.037.000.000 -- 650.266

Syracuse -------------------- 27.404.000.000 -- 662.553

Colorado Springs ------------- 26.855.000.000 -- 660.319

Chattanooga ---------------- 25.233.000.000 -- 650.206

Springfield ------------------- 23.360.000.000 -- 693.204

Stockton -------------------- 19.795.000.000 -- 696.214

McAllen --------------------- 15.379.000.000 -- 797.810


Uberlândia ------------------ 12.813.000.000 -- 728.557

Blumenau ------------------- 12.517.000.000 -- 687.342

Araraquara-São Carlos ------ 11.860.000.000 -- 710.350

São José do Rio Preto ------- 10.452.000.000 -- 779.906

Maringá ---------------------- 8.874.000.000 -- 731.654

Juiz de Fora ------------------ 6.650.000.000 -- 658.605

Arapiraca -------------------- 2.702.000.000 -- 702.274



Toledo on US$ 43,000 GDP per capita. Quite high for a Rust Belt area;

McAllen has the lowest GDP per capita amongst the US areas: US$ 19,300. Lower than many Brazilian areas;

Blumenau (Santa Catarina state) is the main centre of German Brazil. Largest Oktoberfest in the world after München, has a very strong industry and the lowest number of people living in the poverty (only 6% against 32% national-wise). GDP per capita of US$ 18,200;

Maringá (northern Paraná state) is one of the wealthiest Brazilian areas (agribusiness, services, retail, university), with only 12% of households under the poverty line (32% in Brazil as a whole) but as it doesn't count with heavy industry, the GDP per capita is flattened;

São José do Rio Preto (northern São Paulo state) is also one of the wealthiest Brazilian areas, but as Maringá, the GDP is flattened;

Arapiraca (Alagoas state) has the lowest GDP per capita of the list (US$ 3,800).
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  #48  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2014, 12:30 AM
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Brookings Institute Puts out via

http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/res...%20monitor.pdf

an interesting document where the relative GDPs of various cities are portrayed as different sized circles that are colored, based upon their relative economic recovery since 2008. Their info, while not also given as a table, is based upon data from Oxford Economics, Moody's Analytics, and the US Census Bureau. (ref Pg 22)

Their North American Data rates the relative Western Hemisphere metro economies in order as NYC, LA, Chicago based on the 3 largest sizes, then groups Washington, San Francisco, Mexico City, Dallas, Sao Paulo and Houston together in the next class.

World wide- Tokyo, and NYC stand alone in size. Seoul, and, London are the next larger sized. Osaka, Paris, Moscow, and LA the next largest sized after that.

The report is worth skimming as it's primary concern is how each metro area has grown size the 2008 Great Recession began and matrix tables show growth patterns economically/

Methodology for determining populations was stated to be in Appendix C, which was not represent in the document.
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  #49  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2014, 12:48 PM
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^^The major flaw in this report is the fact that they use PPP to determine the size of the metro economies, but as I said the PPPs of metropolitan areas are unavailable, so they use instead the national PPP of the country within which each metro area is located, which leads to silly results.

For example, there is no way Seoul has an economy larger than Paris or Osaka. They come to that conclusion only by using the national PPP of South Korea, which makes no sense, because the cost of life in Seoul is probably higher than in the rest of South Korea, and besides, the size of an economy is usually expressed at market exchange rates, not at PPP, otherwise India would be the 3rd largest economy in the world at PPP instead of Japan.

In the real world, at market exchange rates, you can see the GDP of the Seoul metro area in the list with maps that I posted on the first page. City of Seoul + City of Incheon + Gyeonggi Province had a combined GDP worth US$485 bn in 2010, whereas London had a GDP of US$743 bn, Osaka-Kobe-Kyoto had a GDP of $757 bn, and Paris had a GDP of US$781 bn.
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  #50  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2014, 1:35 PM
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Adding another one:

-------------------- GDP 2011 (US$) -- Pop. 2011

Seoul ---------------- US$ 535.8 bi --- 25.3 mi
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  #51  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2014, 1:22 AM
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800,000 - 1,000,000

-------------------- GDP 2011 (US$) -- Pop. 2011

Honolulu --------------- 52.081.000.000 -- 963.607

Omaha ------------------ 48.979.000.000 -- 877.110

Baton Rouge ------------ 46.949.000.000 -- 808.242

Tulsa -------------------- 46.439.000.000 -- 946.962

Albuquerque ------------ 37.875.000.000 -- 898.642

Dayton ------------------ 37.464.000.000 -- 983.079

Little Rock -------------- 36.291.000.000 -- 808.825

Knoxville --------------- 35.977.000.000 -- 841.994

Bakersfield ------------- 33.768.000.000 -- 851.710

Tucson ------------------ 32.335.000.000 -- 989.569

Allentown --------------- 30.412.000.000 -- 824.916

El Paso ------------------ 28.755.000.000 -- 820.790

Sarasota ----------------- 27.424.000.000 -- 869.866


Joinville ------------------ 20.057.000.000 -- 855.250

Caxias do Sul ------------ 16.743.000.000 -- 829.378

Volta Redonda-Resende -- 16.305.000.000 -- 832.282

Florianópolis -------------- 13.951.000.000 -- 965.486

Cuiabá -------------------- 10.372.000.000 -- 873.232

Campo Grande ----------- 10.194.000.000 -- 870.419

Feira de Santana ---------- 6.300.000.000 -- 866.793

Campina Grande ---------- 4.638.000.000 -- 806.475

Caruaru -------------------- 4.183.000.000 -- 840.473



Omaha, as Des Moines, with a very high GDP per capita;

Sarasota, as those smaller areas of Florida, with a very low GDP per capita. I guess the lack of a industrial base is the reason;

Caxias do Sul is the largest Italian city of Rio Grande do Sul, the centre of Brazil's vinelands. Together with Blumenau, the area has the smallest portion of people living under poverty. Very strong industry, and as in Blumenau, mainly local owned. With a GDP per capita of US$ 20,200, very strong social index, it's a full developed region.
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  #52  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2014, 1:30 PM
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1,000,000 - 1,300,000

-------------------- GDP 2011 (US$) -- Pop. 2011

Hartford ------------ 83.485.000.000 -- 1.213.255

New Orleans --------- 80.154.000.000 -- 1.191.089

Oklahoma City ------- 60.997.000.000 -- 1.278.053

Birmingham ---------- 53.547.000.000 -- 1.132.264

Grand Rapids --------- 47.583.000.000 -- 1.217.206

Rochester ------------- 46.351.000.000 -- 1.055.278

Buffalo ---------------- 45.888.000.000 -- 1.134.039

Albany ---------------- 45.037.000.000 -- 1.000.474

Greenville ------------- 42.556.000.000 -- 1.122.757

Fresno ----------------- 35.491.000.000 -- 1.095.829


Sorocaba-Itu ---------- 20.809.000.000 -- 1.275.253

Piracicaba-Limeira ---- 20.711.000.000 -- 1.239.227

Ribeirão Preto --------- 18.239.000.000 -- 1.105.045

Londrina --------------- 12.919.000.000 -- 1.097.066

Aracaju ------------------ 9.982.000.000 -- 1.030.706

Teresina ----------------- 7.883.000.000 -- 1.130.487



If I'm not mistaken, Hartford is, as Des Moines, an insurance companies hub. As result, ultra-high GDP per capita (US$ 69,000);

New Orleans with a GDP inflated by the oil production in the area;

The three largest areas of upstate New York: Buffalo, Rochester and Albany in a very tight race;

Sorocaba and Piracicaba regions are part of São Paulo's macrometropolitan area. Due the lack of space in São Paulo metro, those areas absorb much of the new industrial investments;

Ribeirão Preto (northeastern São Paulo state) is one of the wealthiest areas in Brazil. Centre of Brazilian ethanol industry and has, by far, the strongest retail sector amongst the wealthiest cities in the hinterland. US$ 16,500 GDP per capita;

Londrina area, for the reasons I described in Maringá and São José do Rio Preto notes, has an average GDP per capita, even though is way above Brazil in any economic or social metric.
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  #53  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2014, 2:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yuriandrade View Post
If I'm not mistaken, Hartford is, as Des Moines, an insurance companies hub. As result, ultra-high GDP per capita (US$ 69,000);
This seems right.

According Brooking, the Business/Finance sector represented 47.3% of the metropolitan economy of Des Moines and 42.6% of Hartford.
The highest share in the USA and one of the highest in the world.

Infact I have only find London (47.8%) and Paris (47.4%) with a higher share of the Business/Finance in their metropolitan economy.
Frankfurt am Main is at 42%, New York City is at 40.3%.

Obviously the business/Finance is a much broader than the sole insurance/banking sector.
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  #54  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2014, 4:17 PM
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Toronto (GTA) has a GDP of $323 billion according to Wikipedia.
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  #55  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2014, 5:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Minato Ku View Post
This seems right.

According Brooking, the Business/Finance sector represented 47.3% of the metropolitan economy of Des Moines and 42.6% of Hartford.
The highest share in the USA and one of the highest in the world.
Yes, Hartford has traditionally had a large insurance sector, and also, more recently, a large finance sector. Because it's adjacent to the NYC metropolitan area, and has lower taxes and overall costs, many finance back offices have relocated to the Hartford area.

Also, keep in mind that these GDP per capita numbers, while accurate, are a bit misleading, especially when you have concentrated activities like energy extraction and the like. Hartford, while technically "rich" is considered very affordable and modest compared to adjacent areas of coastal Connecticut in the NYC metropolitan area, even if the GDP per capita is similar or even higher.

Or New Orleans, and some of the Texas cities, have very high GDP per capita, because of the energy industry, but are not conventionally "rich" areas. New Orleans, in particular, feels like a below-average U.S. metropolitan area in terms of wealth, even though it's above-average in terms of GDP.

I suspect Des Moines is similar to Hartford. It's technically rich due to concentration of certain high value industries, but doesn't function as such.
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  #56  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2014, 7:25 PM
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In Brazil such GDP distortions are way more dramatic than in the US. Firstly, regional differences are way bigger than in the US. Retail has also a smaller share of the GDP.

Therefore cities like Londrina, Maringá, São José do Rio Preto, with no industrial plants and counting heavily on services, post GDP per capita below national average, while their poverty rates are several times smaller, retail sales way above national average, car ownership, etc.
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  #57  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2014, 10:09 PM
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West Hartford is the new Greenwich!
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  #58  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2014, 11:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yuriandrade View Post
--- Areas in Florida and central California posting very low GDP per capita, half of national average
in California, nothing serves to bring per capita GDP down more dramatically than the sheer quantity of unskilled Mexican laborers. You can take a couple million out of the state and the economy wouldn't suffer at all. We're way beyond the point of diminishing returns for cheap labor. The state is being brought down by it. That's the kind of glut we have.
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  #59  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2014, 7:26 PM
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1,300,000 - 1,700,000

-------------------- GDP 2011 (US$) -- Pop. 2011

Raleigh ---------------- US$ 98.3 bi ---- 1.7 mi

Nashville -------------- US$ 85.8 bi ---- 1.6 mi

Norfolk ---------------- US$ 80.7 bi ---- 1.7 mi

Providence ------------ US$ 68.1 bi ---- 1.6 mi

Richmond -------------- US$ 66.6 bi ---- 1.3 mi

Louisville -------------- US$ 64.6 bi ---- 1.4 mi

Memphis --------------- US$ 64.3 bi ---- 1.3 mi

Greensboro ------------ US$ 63.2 bi ---- 1.4 mi


Genoa ------------------ US$ 62.0 bi ---- 1.5 mi

Jacksonville ------------ US$ 60.7 bi ---- 1.4 mi

São José dos Campos -- US$ 30.1 bi ---- 1.5 mi

São Luís ----------------- US$ 13.7 bi ---- 1.5 mi

Natal --------------------- US$ 11.8 bi ---- 1.5 mi

João Pessoa ------------- US$ 10.7 bi ---- 1.3 mi

Maceió ------------------- US$ 10.6 bi ---- 1.4 mi



^^
Raleigh with a very high GDP per capita. Those cities in North Carolina grow crazy;

The gap between Nashville and Memphis is quite big. I wonder what is the impact of FedEx on Memphis GDP;

Genoa, despite all the Rust Belt fame, is above natinal average;

São José dos Campos (80 km east of São Paulo) is the seat of Brazilian aircraft maker Embraer. Part of São Paulo macrometropolitan area. GDP per capita of US$ 19,500;

São Luís, Natal, João Pessoa and Maceió are all state capitals in Northeast. Public sector gives a big bump in their GDP. In São Luís, the port helps as well.

Last edited by Minato Ku; Jan 20, 2014 at 8:02 PM.
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  #60  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2014, 12:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yuriandrade; If I'm not mistaken, [b
Hartford[/b] is, as Des Moines, an insurance companies hub. As result, ultra-high GDP per capita (US$ 69,000);
Perhaps this is obvious, but I have to believe that fact that Des Moines and Hartford are state capitals may also play a significant role in their high GDP per capita. Throw Raleigh and Madison and probably a few other. Maybe not so much that they are center of state government as to the other ancillary activities (office service, hotel, legal services, etc.) that occur because they are centers of governance.
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