Amtrak starts direct service to B.C.

[SpongeG]

what if instead of making it end downtown they make the end near the airport or marpole area close to canada line - most european cities have stations spread through out their cities that are tied into local transit - it would be better than surrey at least

[dleung]

It'll be nice to get one of these mag-levs... minimum disruption to the environment =)

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

what if instead of making it end downtown they make the end near the airport or marpole area close to canada line - most european cities have stations spread through out their cities that are tied into local transit - it would be better than surrey at least

Anything would be better than Surrey (sorry, and I live there). Marpole would be a bit pointless, as it would still need to cross the river and travel through Urban parts of Vancouver or Richmond, and then not really be close to anything useful (except maybe some hotels). I can see the airport, there is some room there, and it would be convenient for travelers making connections to/from flights, but you still need to travel through urban Richomnd. And then those travelers are sort of lost to the Canadian economy. At least if they travel through downtown they might pick up a coffee or a meal at a restaurant.

The ROW through Vancouver might seem long, but it's pretty secluded, thus pretty quick. Even at current speeds, it's just as quick as traveling on the Skytrain or Canada Line.

Originally Posted by dleung

It'll be nice to get one of these mag-levs... minimum disruption to the environment =)

I know that's from The Island, but for some reason that shot really makes me think of Coors Light. Knowing Michael Bay, do you think that an intentional subliminal advertisement, or did he just steal the imagery because it's cool?

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

The ROW through Vancouver might seem long, but it's pretty secluded, thus pretty quick. Even at current speeds, it's just as quick as traveling on the Skytrain or Canada Line.

Once you cross the New West bridge, it's smooth Sailing as you're practically on a ROW with just a handful of level crossings...

It parallels Burnaby Lake, the GRandview Cut, the River...

The "relevant" crossings that I can think of are...

Braid (will be an overpass as part of NFPR )
Caribou (already has an Overpass to Lougheed anyhow )
Gilmore
Rupert
Renfrew

4 Crossings, none of them particularly major crossings, with a ROW that travels mostly beside large bodies of water away from residential areas.

The current Route, with a few enhancements, is a great route. It's really only the New West Bridge and the travel through Surrey and White Rock that need to be addressed. That's not bad.

[BCPhil]

You forgot Douglas and Boundary.

An overpass at Douglass would probably be welcomed by the local businesses and truckers who are annoyed with current train traffic. And overpasses at Braid, Gilmore and Cariboo are already overdue. (Cariboo could easily be closed as traffic could just use Gaglardi). But the trains could easily slow down at Boundary, Rupert, Renfrew, and Slocan (safety for the pedestrians in the area) and still make amazing time through Vancouver. I would close the intersection of Slocan and Kaslo at Granview though. Not only would it be safer for the trains, but it would really improve traffic and safety on Granview itself (I've often seen accidents around that group of 3 intersection on Granview).

I've seen the trains go through there before, and they still do a pretty good speed, and I can't remember the last time I heard of there being an accident at those crossings (especially when you consider the small space to the intersection and all the buses and pedestrians around Renfrew).

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

You forgot Douglas and Boundary.

An overpass at Douglass would probably be welcomed by the local businesses and truckers who are annoyed with current train traffic. And overpasses at Braid, Gilmore and Cariboo are already overdue. (Cariboo could easily be closed as traffic could just use Gaglardi). But the trains could easily slow down at Boundary, Rupert, Renfrew, and Slocan (safety for the pedestrians in the area) and still make amazing time through Vancouver. I would close the intersection of Slocan and Kaslo at Granview though. Not only would it be safer for the trains, but it would really improve traffic and safety on Grandview itself (I've often seen accidents around that group of 3 intersection on Grandview).

I've seen the trains go through there before, and they still do a pretty good speed, and I can't remember the last time I heard of there being an accident at those crossings (especially when you consider the small space to the intersection and all the buses and pedestrians around Renfrew).

Here's a video waiting for trains in Japan:
• Video Link

They're going at a pretty good clip (these are JR trains, so not subway/LRT... more like Go Trains or LIRR in New York)

This was the third or fourth train we waited for.

I don't think you'd need to close Caribou, just made it double-gated. If traffic's bad, like you said, people will end up using Gaglardi anyhow. An overpass at Caribou would be an overpass to nowhere as it just ends at a T-Junction at Government.

An overpass at Gilmore should be fairly straightforward.

The only pedestrian accident I've seen at Rupert was a suicide. it wasn't pretty... and it wasn't at the intersection, but between Renfrew and Rupert.

And overpass at Boundary would be really difficult because of the existing highway overpass. If you wanted to REALLY increase the speed leading up to the cut, that whole corridor from past Gilmore to Nanaimo would have to be put into a cut.

To be honest, however, the only reason you'd need most of these improvements is if you were running high-speed trains through the area. Far more useful before any of that happens would be double-tracking it, adding capacity for passenger rail to pass slow-moving freight.

[dleung]

^^What are the current speeds in the existing ROW through Vancouver/Burnaby? I think it's already doubletracked.

Originally Posted by Stingray2004

Source: http://www.vanc.igs.net

I don't know how fast trains go back in 1897, but there's a 2km minimum curve radius for 200kph trains. The curves around the hill in White Rock has a 400m radii, at best 1km if the whole segment is "smoothed" out. Maybe banked turns?

Originally Posted by Political_R

Using subway costs does not account for the higher clearance needed for high-speed trains.

I think the numbers on that chart are already a bit high. If you try pricing the Canada line with those numbers, it'll come to $1.6B without the stations, lol. That said, extra height usually means a little more digging, but the amount of concrete is more or less the same, most of it is in the roof structure (for cut and cover). Realistically though, I know we won't have the population/resources to justify a second tunnel across the Burrard Penninsula anywhere near as early as when we want to have a functioning HSR line.

Originally Posted by jsbertram

I was looking at the Port Mann last year when construction started for the new bridge, and I wondered why the concrete piers for the old Port Mann couldn't be re-used for a new rail bridge over the Fraser.

On the south side of the river crossing, the new railway bridge would land between the CN rail yards, and already be aligned eastwards to connect with the CN mainline in the Fraser Heights area.

From that point, you're not that far away from Port Kells and you can connect to the abandoned ROW south through Port Kells, Clayton, Cloverdale, Hazelemere and Douglas Crossing.

Interesting idea, though the main piers will likely need to get additional height for a likely non-truss system to cross the span and maintain the same clearance as before. The main reason why I am not supportive of it is because I would like for the alignment to enable a future station in downtown Surrey, but from there, the shortest and most cost-effective way to continue to downtown is to tunnel directly northwest. Here's my preferred aligment in light of recent information:





I'm thinking of following the existing hydro corridors at grade (which I know isn't very flat, but re-grading should be simpler since it's less constrained) through Surrey, where north of 92nd Ave, it starts decending into a trench, to a sunken station across from the Infinity development, and continuing into a bored tunnel for 2km before it emerges on an elevated track over industrial, to the new bridge.

Save for the hill in White rock, it's successively-smaller turn radii from the US border to Surrey Central, going from 200kph down to 80-120kph for the rest of the existing route?

Also it should be noted that a 3-track 30-foot deep concrete trench for the Alameda Corridor in Los Angeles is just over $700 million for 16km. I mention this because it'll cost less than a straight-up tunnel in some of the areas through Surrey in my map.

[Political_R]

I do not think using the Hydro corridor is the best idea through Surrey due to the curves. We definitely want the highest speed possible through the corridor in order to obtain maximum time gains. I like the idea of using the old corridor and reconnecting at 99 and 91 best.

[The_Henry_Man]

Kind of related, but this is my first attempt ever on video editing. I did a solo journey on the Amtrak Empire Builder Line back to Vancouver from St. Cloud, MN after Summer school ended (June 6th-7th, 2010). I hope high-speed rail from Portland to Van can be realized. I think there's great potential in long-distance rail travel in North America, but it's just whether there's political guts to do it.

• Video Link

[Nutterbug]

Originally Posted by dleung

Bridges are expensive and I figured better one bridge than three. I was also thinking in terms of the likelihood that there's no money for a tunnel (yet), in which case we have to follow the existing tracks around Braid, Sapperton, etc. There are 2 essentials that must be provided on the Vancouver end for the US to agree to extending HSR up here: that is a new bridge over the fraser and a shortcut around/thru White Rock.

For the latter, I disagree with Stingray. The only alignment near the border has to be at the Peach Arch crossing, because immediately east of it are hills going up to 300 feet in elevation where it's aligned with 184th in Surrey, (and goes even higher further east). Given that, without making a massive detour to the east and back to the west, the most gentle grade north of Peach Arch is along Hwy 99. Maybe lower sections are elevated and the highest point of the track is trenched.

I no longer like the tunnel-under-new-west idea. A tunnel under Knight Street (cut&cover 1 block west that is) would be the same length (approx 6km). The benefits of the latter alignment make a more worthwhile difference. Which makes the project impossible to do Vancouver-style... ie: in phases. If we can only afford the White Rock shortcut and a replacement bridge over the Fraser, it will follow the eastern route around New West/Burnaby, and the western tunnel idea is out the window, forever.

OR unless it's something simliar to what LeftCoaster suggests, perhaps one big viaduct over Annacis Island and Queensborough, terminating right in the middle of Big Bend. Phase 1 will have the tracks after the viaduct curving right to New West. The western tunnel can be phased in as below, beginning after Boundary road and cutting diagonally across East Van to rejoin the grandview cut:

It has to be a bored tunnel... the north-south roads in Vancouver aren't straight enough for cut-and-cover. But note that the difference between the 2 methods might be less than $100 million in this case:

How feasible would it be to build new dedicated passenger rail tracks running alongside the Skytrain Expo Line instead? It would be the most direct diagonal route from the rail bridge at New West to DT Vancouver, the tracks from the old Interurban still take up space up to Royal Oak in Burnaby, and it can be shared with an express commuter rail to the Valley south of the Fraser with stops only at New West, Metrotown, Commercial-Broadway and Waterfront, to pick up some of Expo Line's load when it reaches capacity.

On parts where the Expo Line has been completely built over the old Interurban line, a tunnel can be built.

[SpongeG]

Train stop in White Rock an ‘uphill fight’




By Alex Browne - Peace Arch News
Published: December 07, 2010 3:00 PM
Updated: December 07, 2010 3:05 PM

The train will stop here – if Hardy Staub has anything to do with it.

The City of White Rock is reviving its Amtrak Task Force with the former mayor as chair. And the express intention is having White Rock as a regular stop for international passenger-train service as an economic booster both for the city and the surrounding region.

“It’s going to be an uphill project,” Staub said Monday, adding that “council is going to have to spend some money to get some help to point us in the right direction” in pursuing negotiations.

But Staub noted the city was halfway to achieving the overall goal in 2001, when he was still mayor.

Staub and Amtrak president Gil Mallery signed a memorandum of understanding on July 24 of that year, in which Amtrak agreed to provide daily passenger service northbound to White Rock and southbound from the city to various points in the U.S.

The agreement was contingent on a number of factors, including White Rock providing station infrastructure and long-term parking, plus approvals from BNSF, Transport Canada and the Washington Department of Transportation – and also satisfactory agreements with Canada Customs and Revenue, U.S. Customs and U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Service.

“And then, only a few weeks later, an event happened in the U.S. called 9-11,” Staub said. “Everything died there.”

Staub said the advent of the U.S. Department of Homeland Security and an increasingly “isolationist” attitude in the U.S. meant the climate was not right then for continued negotiations for the proposed service.

But White Rock’s Governance and Legislation Committee – which Monday approved the re-establishment of the task force, with Coun. Grant Meyer as council representative and Coun. Doug McLean as alternate – is betting that now is the right time to restart negotiations which could ultimately mean a huge economic benefit to the city.

“(This) is a very important committee for us to move forward,” McLean said.

Staub did not pull any punches in describing to council members the challenges ahead.

“It was a steep uphill fight in 2001 – it is even as steep uphill now,” he told councillors, adding that he agreed to chair the task force on condition he had input to the terms of reference and the composition of the group.

Terms of reference for the task force are expected to be brought forward in January.

“I don’t intend to be part of a committee that’s not going anywhere. It is of the utmost importance we follow through on this and bring some economic development to White Rock.”

...

http://www.bclocalnews.com/news/111478614.html

[Nutterbug]

^ White Rock's loss should be Blaine's gain.

With a stop at Blaine, the passengers have the option to walk through existing border crossing facilities, without setting up new ones at the station. What's more, it'll be better positioned in the event that the rail along White Rock's waterfront is replaced by a bypass of the peninsula.

Blaine council should be all over this one with the economic potential that it has to offer.

[trofirhen]

Despite purely nostalgic reasons (living in Ocean Park as a 4 year-old, hearing the train passing beneath the bluff at Kwomais Point, and even catching it, "The Great Northern," to visit folks in Seattle), I would prefer to see the rail line re-routed behind the peninsula, freeing up the White Rock Waterfront.
*
Even if it were to make a stop there, the economic gains would probably be less than anticipated, as White Rock is already a huge attraction as a beach getaway, and is becoming a retirement haven, (and a rich one at that), almost like Vancouver's own little Riviera (with the milder climate, sunshine, and everything).
*
The more direct route behind the peninsula would not only take Burlington Northern freight trains off the waterfront, but it would allow for higher speeds for the passenger trains, a large part of which this is all about.

[dleung]

I think a station in White Rock will be an excellent stop for a once-a-day scenic train. I don't mind having the rail track cut along the waterfront... it will be a condition that makes it unique from places like False Creek or English Bay. The tracks can be embedded for that 2km stretch.

That said, there still needs to be a high-speed corridor bypassing the peninsula for commuter and freight trains.

[go_leafs_go02]

I think a stop in White Rock with only service between Vancouver and White Rock would be the best option. Heck it could work as a commuter route to an extent. However, I have a feeling Canadian Government would have a say against having an American Company provide service between two Canadian cities.

Anyone know the time difference to downtown Vancouver from White Rock by either Amtrak, or via Bus to Bridgeport up Canada Line.

[officedweller]

Washington state in line for another $161M for high-speed rail projects

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...lmoney10m.html

[Stingray2004]

The Peace Arch News has been running a series on the BNSF line through White Rock, which are linked to the following article. These outtake tidbits therein from the sixth in the series seem interesting:

Back in the late 1960s and early 1970s, relocating the tracks [from White Rock] was a distinct possibility. The provincial government even put through a bill calling for it.

B.C. and Washington State have an agreement in principle supporting high-speed rail; U.S. president Barack Obama has gone on record as being in favour of such connections, and advocates predict a service between Seattle and Vancouver – while much slower than high-speed rail connections in Europe – would require a new line bypassing the current BNSF route along the shoreline.

Even if the line is ultimately relocated out of White Rock – one long-studied plan includes bypassing the Peninsula with a tunnel under Highway 99.

The roots of the relocation movement go back 60 years to the post-war period.

The next wave in the movement to relocate came in the late 1960s, fueled, quite literally, by coal.

Maneuvering by the provincial government, and then-White Rock and Delta MLA Bob Wenman, drew Great Northern into the scheme, with Great Northern to be promised a new right of way from Blaine to near Cloverdale in exchange for relinquishing its roadbed on the waterfront.

On March 1969, the provincial government introduced Bill 42, ‘An Act for the Improvement of White Rock and Adjacent Areas’ – essentially setting out the building of a new route from Blaine to Cloverdale, to be built by B.C. Hydro and turned over to Great Northern.

But not only did citizens of Blaine and South Surrey object to a route through their quiet backyards, the provincial government could not secure necessary federal support for it.

In 1972, Dave Barrett’s NDP swept into power and gave a monopoly on transporting Crows Nest coal to the CPR – effectively killing any chance for Great Northern, now re-organized as Burlington Northern, to profit from the deal, and eliminating any incentive to relocate the tracks for decades to come.

Next [7th article]: A look at the future of the railway on the Semiahmoo Peninsula.

http://www.bclocalnews.com/community/111634914.html

[officedweller]

Thanks for the link

[SpongeG]

Mudslides shut down Vancouver-Seattle Amtrak service

Another mudslide has extended the closure of Amtrak routes between Vancouver and Seattle Thursday.

A 30-foot mudslide near White Rock at around 6:30 a.m. forced the cancellation of a scheduled evening train from Vancouver.

...

http://www.theprovince.com/news/Muds...538/story.html

[SpongeG]

Amtrak service resumes between Seattle and Vancouver, B.C.

JARED PABEN - THE BELLINGHAM HERALD


Amtrak Cascades train service between Seattle and Vancouver, B.C., resumed at 1 p.m. Thursday, Dec. 16, according to Amtrak. Service had been interrupted this week because of mudslides affecting the tracks.


Read more: http://www.bellinghamherald.com/2010...#ixzz18KScWDou