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  #1  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2007, 3:11 PM
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The future of Ottawa's Transit

Here I can open up the discussion on the public transit issue on light rail, bus, etc, etc.

Right now, while Gatineau is moving (FINALLY) foward with the Rapibus, in Ottawa other then gradual improved service along the Transitway corridor, the city is stalled regarding the future of rapid transit since Larry O'Brien squashed the original light-rail plan with an assist to John Baird and the Federal Conservative Government.

The next chapter is the Urbandale proposal next month
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  #2  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2007, 3:13 PM
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Yeah, when is that proposal going to be available to the public? Or is it already available through the city or do by going to a Library, etc.?
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  #3  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2007, 5:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Jamaican-Phoenix View Post
Yeah, when is that proposal going to be available to the public? Or is it already available through the city or do by going to a Library, etc.?
Apparently you can request a copy from the City Clerk. It's probably as simple as walking in to City Hall and asking.
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  #4  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2007, 5:26 PM
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Originally Posted by jeremy_haak View Post
Apparently you can request a copy from the City Clerk. It's probably as simple as walking in to City Hall and asking.
I hate people living in the 18th century, there is no excuse for it not to be online.
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  #5  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2007, 5:31 PM
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Originally Posted by jeremy_haak View Post
Apparently you can request a copy from the City Clerk. It's probably as simple as walking in to City Hall and asking.

City Clerk? SO I just waltz into City Hall, go to the main/info/front desk and ask for the Urbandale plan?
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  #6  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2007, 1:08 AM
the capital urbanite the capital urbanite is offline
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Originally Posted by Cre47 View Post
the city is stalled regarding the future of rapid transit since Larry O'Brien squashed the original light-rail plan with an assist to John Baird and the Federal Conservative Government.

The next chapter is the Urbandale proposal next month
....it's anything but stalled....it's moving at a blistering pace....and if it wasn't for O'Brien's Task Force city staff would still be sitting on their hands because they certainly wouldn't have got any direction from the Feudal council that rules this land.
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  #7  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2007, 6:13 PM
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The people at Urbandale would have a nervous breakdown if they realized that time and time again in this forum we discuss LRT to the airport and abandoning the leg to Riverside South. Myself, I would like to see both. Not a spur line, but have the line actually loop past the airport on its way to or from Riverside South. But make no mistake, if given the option I would take the airport and have the people from Riverside South connect to the train at Lester or South Keys. As for crossing the Strandherd Bridge into Barhaven, I think it would be a crime not to do so. We would get 50x more riders from Barhaven than from Riverside South and all we have to do is cross a river?? Let's hope this fact is not ignored when council unveils their plan.
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  #8  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2007, 7:10 PM
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The people at Urbandale would have a nervous breakdown if they realized that time and time again in this forum we discuss LRT to the airport and abandoning the leg to Riverside South. Myself, I would like to see both. Not a spur line, but have the line actually loop past the airport on its way to or from Riverside South. But make no mistake, if given the option I would take the airport and have the people from Riverside South connect to the train at Lester or South Keys. As for crossing the Strandherd Bridge into Barhaven, I think it would be a crime not to do so. We would get 50x more riders from Barhaven than from Riverside South and all we have to do is cross a river?? Let's hope this fact is not ignored when council unveils their plan.

The issue that came from all of this, is for Barrhaven people, taking the 95 is much faster (20 minutes in some cases) to go DT than taking the original O-Train extension. The LRT should be in the same corridor. There is no way we can justify the cost for a Riverside South LRT, while a suburban train would be as effective for the type of travel. There is no double flow to Riverside, just one way in the morning and evening.
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  #9  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2007, 7:18 PM
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There is no double flow to Riverside, just one way in the morning and evening.
Good point. All they need is 1 track.
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  #10  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2007, 7:31 PM
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Originally Posted by O-Town Hockey View Post
Good point. All they need is 1 track.
Have you seen the commuter map for the O-Train and the metrO? It explains well I think. You have one line from Spratt that connects to the metrO and connects at other metrO station with a big transfer section at confederation and via station.

http://www.ottawatransit.ca/map.html
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  #11  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2007, 7:53 PM
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Originally Posted by O-Town Hockey View Post
We would get 50x more riders from Barhaven than from Riverside South and all we have to do is cross a river?? Let's hope this fact is not ignored when council unveils their plan.
That number doesn't jive with the city's ridership projections.
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  #12  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2007, 3:37 AM
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The issue that came from all of this, is for Barrhaven people, taking the 95 is much faster (20 minutes in some cases) to go DT than taking the original O-Train extension. The LRT should be in the same corridor. There is no way we can justify the cost for a Riverside South LRT, while a suburban train would be as effective for the type of travel. There is no double flow to Riverside, just one way in the morning and evening.
Where did you get that 20 minute figure anyways? Lowell Green? Randall Denley? The fact of the matter is that Barrhaven transit useage is lower than most other parts of the city. This tells you a couple of things. First, the current service is not meeting the needs of the residents. Second, there is more potential for ridership growth in Barrhaven than elsewhere. We also know that the most costly part of the old N-S project was for improvements on the existing Greenboro to Bayview portion. A relatively short extension to the airport is not going to increase ridership a lot beyond O-Train levels except by what you steel off the Transitway. If you want real ridership growth, extend the route into new areas. The fact that the old LRT route plan allowed for walk-on capabilities to large numbers of people in Barrhaven and Riverside South and the community plan included intensification along the line shows that it makes a lot of sense. Furthermore, it may be mostly one way traffic at the moment but RCMP headquarters is moving out to Barrhaven and Riverside South has a large designated employment area. Even if it takes longer by LRT for some Barrhaven residents, does it really matter? We are not going to blow up the Transitway. It will still be an option but I suspect that if you can walk to a LRT station and the ride is more comfortable, many will take that option even if it is a few minutes slower. We also have to consider that for many not travelling downtown, LRT will significantly cut travel times and these will more likely be new transit riders than the downtown folks. I am not opposed to an airport LRT terminal, but if we really want to deal with real traffic issues, it needs to also run to the southern suburbs. Remember, that the ridership studies indicated that an extension to Barrhaven would bring 40,000+ daily riders compared to 10,000-12,000 today on the O-Train. An extension to the airport only, will not accomplish this.

One last thing, Barrhaven and Riverside South residents elected 2 pro-LRT councillors. I think this means something.

I have said it before. We cannot afford to lay track on the Transitway. We gain few new riders for the money invested. We need to invest in new routes, whether east-west or north-south which expand our transit network. Replacing our existing transit network is a waste of money
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  #13  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2007, 3:56 AM
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
Where did you get that 20 minute figure anyways? Lowell Green? Randall Denley? The fact of the matter is that Barrhaven transit useage is lower than most other parts of the city. This tells you a couple of things. First, the current service is not meeting the needs of the residents. Second, there is more potential for ridership growth in Barrhaven than elsewhere. We also know that the most costly part of the old N-S project was for improvements on the existing Greenboro to Bayview portion. A relatively short extension to the airport is not going to increase ridership a lot beyond O-Train levels except by what you steel off the Transitway. If you want real ridership growth, extend the route into new areas. The fact that the old LRT route plan allowed for walk-on capabilities to large numbers of people in Barrhaven and Riverside South and the community plan included intensification along the line shows that it makes a lot of sense. Furthermore, it may be mostly one way traffic at the moment but RCMP headquarters is moving out to Barrhaven and Riverside South has a large designated employment area. Even if it takes longer by LRT for some Barrhaven residents, does it really matter? We are not going to blow up the Transitway. It will still be an option but I suspect that if you can walk to a LRT station and the ride is more comfortable, many will take that option even if it is a few minutes slower. We also have to consider that for many not travelling downtown, LRT will significantly cut travel times and these will more likely be new transit riders than the downtown folks. I am not opposed to an airport LRT terminal, but if we really want to deal with real traffic issues, it needs to also run to the southern suburbs. Remember, that the ridership studies indicated that an extension to Barrhaven would bring 40,000+ daily riders compared to 10,000-12,000 today on the O-Train. An extension to the airport only, will not accomplish this.
Good post! In addition to this, another benefit of the Barrhaven extension is the connection to Carleton (busiest stop on the line), Confederation, and Greenboro/South Keys... transit time would be much faster than taking the bus, especially during rush hour. Saying that the transitway is faster than LRT to get downtown is an oversimplification, because it assumes downtown is the only destination, and also assumes that this is just a 'commuter rail' line for 9-5ers, and not a rapid transit line which is trying to change travel patterns and shape urban form.
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  #14  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2007, 4:09 AM
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
The fact of the matter is that Barrhaven transit useage is lower than most other parts of the city. This tells you a couple of things. First, the current service is not meeting the needs of the residents. Second, there is more potential for ridership growth in Barrhaven than elsewhere.
I think the issue isn't that more Barrhaven residents drive downtown compared to Orleans residents. The issue is that more Barrhaven residents work someone other then downtown compared to Orleans residents. A person is much more likely to take transit if they work downtown then if they work somewhere with easy access to parking.

I don't know if providing other options will make a difference to someone who is living in Barrhaven and working on Moodie Drive, Riverside Drive or March Road. But a LRT line from Barrhaven to the UofO will be very attractive to all the future students living in Barrhaven. And there is a lot of those considering Barrhaven has one of the highest birth rates in Canada. As well, that line will allow future Algonquin students living in Riverside South to easily commute with a connection at Chapman Mills Marketplace.
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  #15  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2007, 4:15 AM
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Let's not forget Carleton U! It is very difficult to get to Carleton from Barhaven curently, but the LRT would go directly there.
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  #16  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2007, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
Where did you get that 20 minute figure anyways? Lowell Green? Randall Denley? The fact of the matter is that Barrhaven transit useage is lower than most other parts of the city. This tells you a couple of things. First, the current service is not meeting the needs of the residents. Second, there is more potential for ridership growth in Barrhaven than elsewhere. We also know that the most costly part of the old N-S project was for improvements on the existing Greenboro to Bayview portion. A relatively short extension to the airport is not going to increase ridership a lot beyond O-Train levels except by what you steel off the Transitway. If you want real ridership growth, extend the route into new areas. The fact that the old LRT route plan allowed for walk-on capabilities to large numbers of people in Barrhaven and Riverside South and the community plan included intensification along the line shows that it makes a lot of sense. Furthermore, it may be mostly one way traffic at the moment but RCMP headquarters is moving out to Barrhaven and Riverside South has a large designated employment area. Even if it takes longer by LRT for some Barrhaven residents, does it really matter? We are not going to blow up the Transitway. It will still be an option but I suspect that if you can walk to a LRT station and the ride is more comfortable, many will take that option even if it is a few minutes slower. We also have to consider that for many not travelling downtown, LRT will significantly cut travel times and these will more likely be new transit riders than the downtown folks. I am not opposed to an airport LRT terminal, but if we really want to deal with real traffic issues, it needs to also run to the southern suburbs. Remember, that the ridership studies indicated that an extension to Barrhaven would bring 40,000+ daily riders compared to 10,000-12,000 today on the O-Train. An extension to the airport only, will not accomplish this.

One last thing, Barrhaven and Riverside South residents elected 2 pro-LRT councillors. I think this means something.

I have said it before. We cannot afford to lay track on the Transitway. We gain few new riders for the money invested. We need to invest in new routes, whether east-west or north-south which expand our transit network. Replacing our existing transit network is a waste of money
The numbers were from the city. They had a page with all From/To destinations.

Replacing the Transitway for these sections would offer better service, and better speed, which would increase ridership. You can't build a system on "good intentions". It needs to be backed up with facts and numbers. Of course the Barrhaven and Riverside South voted for that, (even if the polls weren't that favorable for the O-Train), they're the only one getting a good deal out of it. How can you sell a fast system like that? In the field?! Wetlands? Low ridership and extremely high cost and minimal return on investment? No wonder it was voted down.
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  #17  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2007, 12:50 PM
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The numbers were from the city. They had a page with all From/To destinations.
That's crap. It was comparing numbers from Fallowfield Station for the 95, which is always behind schedule when it hits downtown, to numbers from a LRT station south of Strandherd which would be closer for more people in Barrhaven.

Quote:
Replacing the Transitway for these sections would offer better service, and better speed, which would increase ridership. You can't build a system on "good intentions". It needs to be backed up with facts and numbers.
Well, how about you back up your statements with facts and numbers for a change? How much faster would converting the Woodroffe Transitway to LRT make the route? And how many more riders will it convert?

Quote:
Of course the Barrhaven and Riverside South voted for that, (even if the polls weren't that favorable for the O-Train), they're the only one getting a good deal out of it. How can you sell a fast system like that? In the field?! Wetlands? Low ridership and extremely high cost and minimal return on investment? No wonder it was voted down.
If that's the case why develop anything that doesn't service the entire city?
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  #18  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2007, 1:29 PM
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Originally Posted by BlackRedGold View Post
That's crap. It was comparing numbers from Fallowfield Station for the 95, which is always behind schedule when it hits downtown, to numbers from a LRT station south of Strandherd which would be closer for more people in Barrhaven.



Well, how about you back up your statements with facts and numbers for a change? How much faster would converting the Woodroffe Transitway to LRT make the route? And how many more riders will it convert?



If that's the case why develop anything that doesn't service the entire city?

It's basic math, if the Barrhaven Centre is supposed to be faster using the Transitway, and LRT is faster than the Transitway, than a separated line going East, that is slower, reaches less population in the same corridor. How is that not a better investment? You also forgot that the Barrhaven O-Train line was single tracked, and service every 14 minutes.

You said it yourself that the 95 is always late. Barrhaven town centre is in the middle of the city, and should be faster using the Transitway than the initially proposed O-Train. If the O-Train replaces the Transitway, in it's own ROW, it will be even faster than the current Transitway numbers, that will crush even more the old O-Train numbers. Plus the population density is much higher in the Woodroffe corridor.

You develop a major plan, that's what you do, and what people here try to do. It's called a vision.
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  #19  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2007, 2:42 PM
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It's basic math, if the Barrhaven Centre is supposed to be faster using the Transitway,
Who said that it was?

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and LRT is faster than the Transitway,
Is it always? Unless you grade separate the line so that it avoids the traffic lights that the Transitway line deals with, I'm not sure it will be any faster.


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than a separated line going East, that is slower, reaches less population in the same corridor.
Less population? The N-S route was going to have TOD around the line. That's not possible around the Transitway line.


Quote:
You said it yourself that the 95 is always late. Barrhaven town centre is in the middle of the city, and should be faster using the Transitway than the initially proposed O-Train. If the O-Train replaces the Transitway, in it's own ROW, it will be even faster than the current Transitway numbers, that will crush even more the old O-Train numbers.
You're not making sense here.

Quote:
Plus the population density is much higher in the Woodroffe corridor.
The Woodroffe corridor is full of large lot single homes with a couple of townhome developments sprinkled in. It is not dense at all until you get north of Baseline.

The N-S line was to be developed for transit. In the developed areas around the line it would have been far denser.


Quote:
You develop a major plan, that's what you do, and what people here try to do. It's called a vision.
The city did develop a major plan. It was the N-S LRT line. It was vision. What people here try to do is the transportation equivalent of a hockey pool. It's not vision, it's playing around.
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  #20  
Old Posted Mar 6, 2008, 4:29 PM
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I want to get comments on my modification of Option 4: let's call it "Option 4A":



I've made the following changes:

1)Retain the East Transitway from Hurdman to Blair as BRT. This significantly simplifies implementation, since bus transitway operation can continue here during construction of other parts of the network.

2)Construct LRT on an alignment from Hurdman-Hospitals-Blair/Innes-Blair. This does a number of things:
-provides a direct access from Orleans to the hospitals. In the 2031 projected demand lines slide, the Orleans-Alta Vista line is the largest travel demand not heading downtown. A large number of hospital workers live in Orleans.
-Connecting to Blair via Blair/Innes provides a direct connection with both the north and south Orleans BRT corridors.
-Compatible with construction/conversion of the Cumberland transitway as LRT, which would be a more appropriate LRT corridor than the one along Hwy 174.
-Provides a redundant corridor to the east when/if the Transitway from Hurdman to Blair was converted to LRT.

3)Retain the BRT link between Baseline and Lincoln Fields (in addition to LRT). Advantage of this:
-Allows buses to continue from Baseline to Lincoln Fields for better connections and fewer transfers
-Provides a continuous Transitway connection to the Pinecrest garage for the BRT network to the south
-allows a cross-town east-west BRT route to be created via: Kanata, Bayshore, SW Transitway, Basline station, Baseline/Heron roads, SE Transitway, Hurdman, East Transitway - Place d'Orleans

What do you think?

Last edited by TransitZilla; Mar 6, 2008 at 5:24 PM. Reason: clarified that there is still LRT between Lincoln Fields and Baseline.
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