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  #4941  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2012, 2:38 AM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is online now
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Originally Posted by eltodesukane View Post
What about the NCC? Can they not contribute something toward a downtown LRT?
Besides obstruction and banalities? No. Not in the "national interest".
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  #4942  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2012, 2:39 AM
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Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker View Post
Problem is stations cost in the $100m+ range, likely more for the old complicated design under the canal and a heritage building. An extra $2 million is a drop in the bucket.
Underground stations, maybe. Do we need to be building these New Lincoln Fields overbuilds above ground, though?
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  #4943  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2012, 2:42 AM
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Originally Posted by c_speed3108 View Post
This is a rapid transit line, not a local route.
Which is why it needs an urban frequency of stations downtown, not a suburban one.

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All they need to do is nudge the downtown east station a little bit east and everything is fine.
It's already too far east. It needs to be nudged west, with another station to the east. The Bank Street connection is crap. By design. For reasons which have yet to be explained by the transit-designing people who don't ride transit except on their fancy junkets to cities that actually build their transit systems right.
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  #4944  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2012, 2:44 AM
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
Regarding, rerouting LRT to the west. Won't a major change of this nature simply delay the project by years yet again?
You can't reroute something that hasn't actually been routed yet.
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  #4945  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2012, 2:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Admiral Nelson View Post
It's ridiculous that the city won't pony up any cash for a Confederation Square station. It's a drop in the bucket for such a giant project.
Jim Watson and the rest of the sad-sack council are afraid of their own shadows and the CFRA TAXES TAXES TAXES! crowd.

Ottawa gets what it deserves, as long as the public is willing to put up with this clown show.
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  #4946  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2012, 4:31 PM
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We have been arguing about rapid transit for years, decades even. LRT has been discussed seriously since the late 1990s. It is now 15 years. We decided in 2006 that instead of building from the suburbs in, we would build from downtown out. OK. This was the decision, but we also knew this would be the most expensive and most crucial part of the system. If we are considering our long-term goals and I am talking about 50 or even 100 years, we have to get the downtown section right. If we don't, we will be kicking ourselves for generations. So, now is not the time to cheap out on critical details, and station locations is of utmost importance downtown. If we need to go over budget to do the right thing, it is the responsibility for our politicians to explain this to the public honestly. The problem is that there is great fear that promises concerning budgets have been made. Well, this is a 100 year decision and I think that if more money is needed, you need to find it somehow. Be creative.
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  #4947  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2012, 11:29 PM
eternallyme eternallyme is offline
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Originally Posted by Uhuniau View Post
Jim Watson and the rest of the sad-sack council are afraid of their own shadows and the CFRA TAXES TAXES TAXES! crowd.

Ottawa gets what it deserves, as long as the public is willing to put up with this clown show.
Maybe time to get the rural areas out of the city in that case? They represent the bulk of that crowd. They seem to hate taxes the most.

If it goes from $2.1 billion to $2.2 billion, that is not significant, especially if other interests chip in.
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  #4948  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2012, 12:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
We have been arguing about rapid transit for years, decades even. LRT has been discussed seriously since the late 1990s. It is now 15 years. We decided in 2006 that instead of building from the suburbs in, we would build from downtown out. OK. This was the decision, but we also knew this would be the most expensive and most crucial part of the system. If we are considering our long-term goals and I am talking about 50 or even 100 years, we have to get the downtown section right. If we don't, we will be kicking ourselves for generations. So, now is not the time to cheap out on critical details, and station locations is of utmost importance downtown. If we need to go over budget to do the right thing, it is the responsibility for our politicians to explain this to the public honestly. The problem is that there is great fear that promises concerning budgets have been made. Well, this is a 100 year decision and I think that if more money is needed, you need to find it somehow. Be creative.
Good lord, we agree.
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  #4949  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2012, 5:04 AM
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Count me in on that, too.

If it orks reasonably, OK. If it doesn't, then there's reason to add to it. Private funds would be great, obviously. Much like those calling for surface trains (running alongside buses, cars, trucks and bikes) on Albert and Slater because it'll be cheaper and will work most of the time, paying half price for no service and no reliability is like buying a car that runs three days a week(but won't tell you which days).
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  #4950  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2012, 1:31 PM
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good god S-Man, why would you want Orks on the transit system?!
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  #4951  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2012, 4:09 AM
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Had read in one of the two freebie papers that two other routes (on top of the current two Stittsville Express) would soon serve the Scotiabank Place Park and Ride - would assume the 96 would be one of them or the 118 or both. Which would make sense, since it will right across from the future transit corridor but more importantly for the short and medium range, ease up the overcrowding at Eagleson West and East where the city is making good mint on parking fines due to the overcrowded parking there.
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  #4952  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2012, 8:17 PM
eternallyme eternallyme is offline
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Originally Posted by Cre47 View Post
Had read in one of the two freebie papers that two other routes (on top of the current two Stittsville Express) would soon serve the Scotiabank Place Park and Ride - would assume the 96 would be one of them or the 118 or both. Which would make sense, since it will right across from the future transit corridor but more importantly for the short and medium range, ease up the overcrowding at Eagleson West and East where the city is making good mint on parking fines due to the overcrowded parking there.
Probably not until the fall, since the spring service changes do not mention such. The best plan IMO is this (the 96 and 163 would also serve the lot):

96 - Extend all Stittsville-bound trips along Palladium and Huntmar. While service is lost along Hazeldean, ridership is low there and they could walk to Palladium/Huntmar.

118 - No change.

161 - Return to 30 minute service on weekdays between Glen Cairn and Terry Fox, with a few trips continuing to Bridlewood as they do now, in the midday and early evening periods.

163 - Realign via Terry Fox, Richardson Side and Huntmar to serve the new developments and the Park and Ride lot.

164 - Revise the weekend routing via Hazeldean, Irwin, Pickford (west loop) and Kakulu instead of Eagleson to serve Katimavik-Hazeldean with the 96 removed. Unchanged on weekdays.

183 - Eliminate route; covered by 96.
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  #4953  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2012, 8:50 PM
eternallyme eternallyme is offline
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Spring service changes are mentioned as follows (red = my opinion):

OTrain

O-Train service will be reduced to run every 30 minutes after 9 p.m. Monday to Saturday and all day on Sunday to match the reduced ridership levels in the spring.

During the summer, I would cut it back to 30 minutes after 7 pm on Saturdays instead of 9 pm. During special events, including on Sunday, service should be 15 minutes though.

4

Route 4 will be reduced for the spring and summer to coincide with the end of the academic year. Some supplementary trips will continue to operate until April 24.

Makes sense, the supplements are no longer needed and 15 minute service on weekdays is reasonable otherwise. One other thing: the terminus should shift from Hurdman to St. Laurent at all times of day, to provide a direct route along the SE and E Transitways that currently does not exist.

5X

The two trips on route 5X from the Ottawa Hospital Campus on Smyth will be adjusted to depart later in the afternoon, at approximately 1 p.m. and 3 p.m., to better meet the needs of customers.

See next note

16X

Route 16X will be modified to travel northbound from King Edward via Wilbrod, Friel, Laurier, Charlotte and Rideau Street to the Rideau Centre, instead of via Waller and Besserer, in order to provide customers with improved access to Rideau Street. Route 16X will also have a new afternoon trip added between Lees Station and Rideau Street in both directions for improved connections.

Why not just move those two routes back to Rideau Street? Also the 16 should be shortened to end in Sandy Hill and Lees Avenue to the hospitals should become a new route on weekdays.

86

Some eastbound trips on route 86, which start at Colonnade, will end at Mackenzie King instead of Hurdman Station.

Hurdman is useless as an terminus late in the evening and on weekends for buses going west of downtown (see also 93 and 96). However, I would do a double-switch in the Trainyards with the 86 and 121 to improve service there, but it is conditional on a new connection from Trainyards Drive to Coronation. Once that is built, ALL 86's should run to Elmvale, while the 121 should be reduced to hourly outside of peak periods as ridership is much lower farther east. Until then, all late evening and weekend 86's from Colonnade should end at Mackenzie King.

93

Route 93 will be extended from Bayshore Station to Lincoln Fields Station seven days a week for improved connections. Peak period service to/from LeBreton will be unchanged. Note that in most time periods Route 93 will serve the local platform at Lincoln Fields, but in rush hour - westbound in the morning and eastbound in the afternoon - buses will serve the Transitway platform.

Route 93 will be modified in Kanata North from a one-way loop to two-way service, with all trips starting or ending on Innovation Drive near Hines. This will improve connections and make it easier for customers to identify the correct bus to get to their destination. Residents in Kanata North going to Bayshore or other destinations will catch their bus on the opposite side of the street.

Route 93 will be modified in Kanata North to travel from Teron via Carling and Schneider to Legget, instead of via March Road and Solandt.

Service to Innovation Drive will also be improved since it will be served by all trips on Route 93. As well, there will be five supplemental trips in the morning peak period from Eagleson Park & Ride that follow the new routing to Kanata North, replacing the current Route 169 service.

Good idea on changing the local routing in Kanata. However, I think that most 93's should be extended to Mackenzie King instead of Lincoln Fields - namely in midday, early evening and on weekends for most of the day, while reducing the 96 to every 15 minutes from every 10-12 minutes. During peak periods in the peak direction (i.e. eastbound morning, westbound afternoon) and later in the evenings (after about 10 pm weekdays and 8 pm weekends) and Sunday before 11 am, it should end at Eagleson where transfers to the 96 can be made. During peak periods in the reverse direction, it should continue to end at LeBreton (due to overcrowding issues downtown).

94

Route 94 will have a new weekday westbound trip departing Millennium Park & Ride at midnight and ending at Tunney's Pasture. A new weekday eastbound trip will leave Chapman Mills around 11:51 a.m.

Maybe it is time to run the 94 up to 2 am? Ridership seems quite high there.

95

Route 95 will operate more frequently in the morning peak period from Baseline Station to downtown to better meet ridership levels.

Good as a short term measure, but redrawing the Transitway pattern should be a priority to reduce or eliminate short runs.

96

Route 96 will have an additional westbound trip to Kanata in the afternoon rush hour departing from Gatineau around 5 p.m. Service to Stittsville will be improved with three addtional trips between 5:30 and 7 p.m., which will increase the frequency from 30 to 15 minutes, and an additional late night trip that will increase the frequency to every 30 minutes between 11 p.m. and midnight.

Good idea. Also the irregular frequency in Stittsville should be changed to a consistent 30 minute frequency; that would be done by making it a 15 minute frequency instead of a 10 or 12 on the base of the route (see 93). Finally, late night (after 11 pm) and weekend trips should end at Mackenzie King due to low ridership east of there; all other trips on weekdays should run to Blair.

99

Route 99 will be revised in the northbound direction on weekends only to travel via Uplands Drive, instead of the Airport Parkway, in order to serve the new Capital Exhibition Centre.

That is already in effect but is not well known until now.

111

Route 111 will be reduced for the spring and summer to coincide with the end of the academic year. Some supplementary trips will continue to operate until April 24.

During the summer, 30 minute service to Carleton is reasonable, so every second weekday trip all day should end at Billings Bridge as 15 minute service is still needed on the main part of the route.

129

Route 129 will be reduced for the spring and summer to coincide with the end of the academic year. Some supplementary trips will continue to operate until April 27. Service hours to the Aviation Museum will be adjusted to better serve the needs of customers.

I'd run daily 6-8 trips to the Aviation Museum daily - about once every 90 minutes - due to the fairly low ridership yet able to schedule based on when people would be willing to go there and how long they would spend there.

134

Route 134 will have a new round trip departing Place d'Orléans at about 10 p.m. for improved service to the community south of Renaud.

Agreed, more service is needed down there, including later service on weekends.

143

Route 143 will have a new eastbound trip departing Greenboro Station at 8:43 a.m. to provide improved service to Tapiola and Johnston.

Maybe run it a bit earlier? That way it could easily run around then run a 43 to downtown without deadheading.

144

Route 144 will have two new morning peak period trips to provide Findlay Creek residents with improved connections to downtown. These trips will operate from Bank at Leitrim westbound through the community and connect with Route 99 at Leitrim Park & Ride lot at approximately 6 a.m. and 6:30 a.m. The first trip departing from Bridlepath and Albion at 6:45 a.m. will be cancelled due to low ridership.

Although confusing, one thing they could do to run direct-to-downtown service to Findlay Creek is to run them as 99's instead, and in the afternoon, have 99F Findlay Creek runs from downtown, through Leitrim and onward. (Alternatively, that could be run as a separate express route, say 44, but at express fare).

147

Route 147 will be modified to serve the new Capital Exhibition Centre. Buses will travel southbound along the Airport Parkway instead of Uplands, then via Lester and Uplands to the new CE Centre, and return to Uplands and the regular routing.

See 99 comments.

152

Route 152 will have improved late night service on Sundays. Three westbound trips, which currently end at Greenbank and Iris, will be extended to Bayshore to better serve the Qualicum-Redwood neighbourhood.

Seems like a good idea to me, as that area is fairly dense in development and otherwise unserviced at those times.

164

Route 164 will leave Hope Side Road about seven minutes earlier on the first morning weekday trip to improve connections at Hazeldean Mall, Eagleson Park & Ride and Teron Station.

No issues with that.

169

Route 169 be CANCELLED and REPLACED by NEW Route 181 to Herzberg and Carling, replacing 169X, and by modified Route 93 to Kanata North. See routes 93 and 181 for more information.

Good idea to scrub that route (I proposed it last September), but instead...I would replace it with a route starting at Terry Fox instead of Eagleson, which I numbered 160, to allow for a direct link from routes like the 118 and 163 that only serve Terry Fox and not Eagleson. In addition, it should run along Herzberg and Terry Fox to cover the east side of the business park.

177

Route 177 will be extended in the morning peak period, on a trial basis, along the Transitway to Fallowfield Station for improved connections to other routes, including express services and Route 94. Buses will operate northbound from Jockvale via the Transitway to Fallowfield Station.

Service will be removed from Greenbank north of Jockvale and from Marketplace Road northbound in the morning peak period only.The current detour routing in Stonebridge via Cambrian, Greenbank and Kilbirnie will become the permanent routing, with all service removed from Dundonald.

Good idea on both counts. I would increase the hours of service on that route, however, with 15 minute service during peak periods and new Sunday service.

181

NEW Route 181 will operate one morning and afternoon peak period trip between Eagleson Park & Ride and Herzberg at Carling, replacing the current Route 169X.

As mentioned farther up, it should instead start at Terry Fox, and extend farther up to Terry Fox and March.

201


Rural Shoppers Route 201 will be modified slightly to serve the King's Grant neighbourhood, reducing walking distances for customers. Buses will operate from Perth Road via Shea, Moore and Queenston to Huntley in both directions.

Not much knowledge of that route.

205


Rural Shoppers Route 205 will be modified to travel via the Transitway between Baseline and Lincoln Fields Stations, instead of Woodroffe, then via Carling to Carlingwood. This will provide improved connections for customers and access to Lincoln Fields shopping centre.

Agreed that is probably more beneficial.

232


Route 232 will be rerouted as buses will no longer be able to operate in the gravel parking lot at the Carlsbad Springs Community Centre. From the community centre, buses will continue west along Eighth Line Road to Anderson and their regular route and in the afternoon will follow the reverse routing. Service will be removed from Russell Road and Leitrim. New bus stops for Park & Ride customers will be installed at the community centre on Eighth Line Road.

Probably the best thing they could do there.

Schools

Special school trips on regular routes and the 600 series of routes will be adjusted based on ridership levels. Some trips will be cancelled while others will be added..

Why now? Why not just leave it along until June, then they can determine for September what is best for 2012-13.
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  #4954  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2012, 2:55 AM
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Well, slowly they are starting to admit the failure of the cuts.

On the bright side, looks we don't have worry about a transit conflict. Apparently a deal for a new contract was struck today as the current one expires in one hour.

See how things get done quickly with Mercier and O'Brien out of the picture.
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  #4955  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2012, 5:44 AM
eternallyme eternallyme is offline
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The biggest thing I have learned: how useless some terminals are. Hurdman is a prime example, especially on weekends and late in the evenings. I recommend pulling some routes back from there that have little benefit: 85 already was, 86 will be for some trips, and I also recommend the 96 be pulled back to Mackenzie King on weekends (plus the 93 which I recommend an extension of).

It should never be used as an all-day terminus from the west during those time periods, when connections to local routes are not as critical (due to the fact more passengers are destined for major activity centres, particularly downtown and the major shopping areas, as well as special events). The few that travel past Mackenzie King could still use the 8, 86, 87, 94, 95, 97 or 98.
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  #4956  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2012, 3:36 PM
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Stittsville is now part of the Urban Transit Area, so new Stittsville Service starting in June:

http://www.octranspo1.com/images/fil...arch_21_EN.pdf
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  #4957  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2012, 4:55 PM
eternallyme eternallyme is offline
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Originally Posted by bradnixon View Post
Stittsville is now part of the Urban Transit Area, so new Stittsville Service starting in June:

http://www.octranspo1.com/images/fil...arch_21_EN.pdf
They should renumber the express routes and knock the 200s off the numbers seeing how they are not rural express routes anymore. There are only two numbers in the 60s available (63 and 64) so another number, such as in the 50s, would be needed to fill them out - perhaps 59 for 262 and just change 263 and 264 to 63 and 64.

As for the 96s, it might be a bit confusing. However, in that case, ALL 96s during the daytime on weekdays should go to Stittsville (96C and 96D each every 30 minutes), with extra peak period service on the 96 starting/ending at Terry Fox via Katimavik (call it something like 96A). Another option is to give them completely separate numbers, such as 91 for the 96D branch. In the future, the 96D should run the Palladium Drive outer loop to serve the new developments there.

One other thing - if that proposal takes hold, the Scotiabank Place service should be revised as well. The 404 would be almost unnecessary, since they could run extra 96D's on event days (and operate them like normal 96s).
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  #4958  
Old Posted Apr 4, 2012, 9:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c_speed3108 View Post
I don't really understand why everyone wants a station in confederation square.
Me either.

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Originally Posted by c_speed3108 View Post
There is very little in the way of destinations in confederation square (aside from the NAC) and it is easily in walking distance of Rideau center and the station by World Exchange. Zillions of people walk around that area everyday. It is also along the local bus routes if people really don't want to walk or can't. We don't need another station slowing everything down. We are really stop-happy in this city. This is a rapid transit line, not a local route. All they need to do is nudge the downtown east station a little bit east and everything is fine.
Yup.

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Originally Posted by S-Man View Post
Agreed though, that the Dt East station should be closer to Metcalfe. Even if just a bit.
Agreed.

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Originally Posted by Uhuniau View Post
Which is why it needs an urban frequency of stations downtown, not a suburban one.

It's already too far east. It needs to be nudged west, with another station to the east. The Bank Street connection is crap. By design. For reasons which have yet to be explained by the transit-designing people who don't ride transit except on their fancy junkets to cities that actually build their transit systems right.
Sorry, but I don't understand how you can think that. I'm not trying to be aggressive or anything. I'm just totally perplexed. The two downtown stations are shown with little more than a block between them. That's too close.



You could move DTEast (Parliament?) a bit east and as long as the stations have an entry/exit at each end of the platform then the walking distance would be minimal. You'd have a portal on Queen just east of Bank. And another about half-way between Metcalfe and O'Connor. That's a block and a half to the NAC/Confed Square.

Furthermore, even if the station was moved east enough to pull the western exit farther from Bank St., you could just route the buses along Queen and have people transfer mid-block. There is nothing sacred about making the Bank/Queen intersection the focal point for a transfer station. I'd argue you probably want to avoid that. Too many pedestrians and vehicles trying to do too many things in too confined an area.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eternallyme View Post
The biggest thing I have learned: how useless some terminals are. Hurdman is a prime example, especially on weekends and late in the evenings. I recommend pulling some routes back from there that have little benefit: 85 already was, 86 will be for some trips, and I also recommend the 96 be pulled back to Mackenzie King on weekends (plus the 93 which I recommend an extension of).

It should never be used as an all-day terminus from the west during those time periods, when connections to local routes are not as critical (due to the fact more passengers are destined for major activity centres, particularly downtown and the major shopping areas, as well as special events). The few that travel past Mackenzie King could still use the 8, 86, 87, 94, 95, 97 or 98.
I'd argue we're building one too many stations, not one too few, with Hurdman being the one too many. It serves no purpose other than to complicate the LRT route, cost extra money and 'reuses' an existing facility by completely rebuilding it. And it bisects a development area with a transit line that doesn't need to be there.

Straighten the line from Lees to Train and have buses drop passengers off at Lees. The major problem I see is Lees would be end of the line for some routes and that usually implies a layover area, but Hurdman had plenty of space and is 30 seconds away so just continue to have Hurdman fulfill that role.

Faster service, less cost.
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  #4959  
Old Posted Apr 4, 2012, 11:14 PM
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Why is a Confederation Square station only being associated with the NAC? Look around, there are other buildings that would be served by it. City Hall, the Provincial Court House, Lord Elgin Hotel, Place Bell, and all those new buildings now under construction along Elgin Street. As far as making people use a local bus to downtown locations, what is the purpose of the tunnel? Is it not to serve downtown? And if we are not going to serve downtown properly, why are we building it? City Hall is too far from Rideau Station and that awful pedestrian underpass next to the Rideau Centre is an example of poor city planning ever since it was built decades ago.

As far as terminating more and more bus routes at the MacKenzie King Bridge, how do we start turning around a large number of buses in the middle of downtown? Also, a good transit system provides connectivity. The more connections we eliminate, the more potential passengers we are not going to be serving. Haven't we just terminated a number of bus routes at Hurdman so we didn't have to run them downtown? So now we are suggesting to eliminate the connectivity at Hurdman Station as well.

Also, I just don't get these comments that Hurdman Station is not an important station. Sure, it is not a destination in itself, but it is the most important transfer station east of downtown and it has a large lot for staging buses waiting for departure that cannot possibly be accomodated downtown. And then to suggest that the station be eliminated entirely from our LRT plan illustrates a complete lack of understanding of travel patterns and the known fact that this station automatically becomes more important when everybody travelling from the southeast part of the city has to transfer at that location when LRT opens. May I ask, what is the alternative? Rowboat across the Rideau River to Lees Station, or hitch a ride on a Via Rail train to the rail station?
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  #4960  
Old Posted Apr 4, 2012, 11:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradnixon View Post
Stittsville is now part of the Urban Transit Area, so new Stittsville Service starting in June:

http://www.octranspo1.com/images/fil...arch_21_EN.pdf
That is great news but I chuckled when I saw mention of light rail. What year would that be? 2450? I figure a Transitway might reach there in 2250.

It is interesting to note that the perhaps the highest ridership is on the west side of Stittsville but that area will still only receive peak period service.
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