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  #4921  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2012, 9:27 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Originally Posted by Hybrid247 View Post
Can't they just shift the downtown east station a block over towards the east?
And thereby have even crappier LRT-bus interface at Bank Street than is already planned?
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  #4922  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2012, 10:30 PM
m0nkyman m0nkyman is offline
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I've been assuming that they were arranging the stations so badly they were hoping a public outcry would force another station, giving them both a saner number of stations and a handy excuse for going over budget.

I hope I'm right.
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  #4923  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2012, 12:16 AM
eltodesukane eltodesukane is offline
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They seem to be downgrading and dumming down the LRT stations to stay within the budget.
This is not the way to go.
The stations should be as good as can be.
If the budget is not enough, then they should cancel/postpone the outlying stations (Blair, Cyrville, Tunney's Pasture), not cheapen everything.

http://i42.tinypic.com/21o92ww.png

Last edited by eltodesukane; Mar 28, 2012 at 11:52 AM.
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  #4924  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2012, 12:28 AM
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Andrewjm3D Andrewjm3D is offline
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Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker View Post
Problem is stations cost in the $100m+ range, likely more for the old complicated design under the canal and a heritage building. An extra $2 million is a drop in the bucket.
LOL, that's what I was going to say. 2 Million barely scratches the surface. Rob Ford was telling voters that the private sector would pay for and tun a new subway. Almost 2 years later and no takers.

Congrats on your new line Ottawa, if only the people in Toronto's outer burbs knew how good they have it getting the same form of transit.
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  #4925  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2012, 12:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m0nkyman View Post
I've been assuming that they were arranging the stations so badly they were hoping a public outcry would force another station, giving them both a saner number of stations and a handy excuse for going over budget.

I hope I'm right.
You may recall that amongst the line items in the $2.1B was a $100M director's contingency... well maybe we should be investigating putting that contingency to practical use.

Me, I still can't figure out where all the money is actually going to be spent. I went through the numbers in detail when they came out and most of them were stuffed with contingencies amounting to about 50% over the subtotal, or a third of the final total.
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  #4926  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2012, 12:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
You may recall that amongst the line items in the $2.1B was a $100M director's contingency... well maybe we should be investigating putting that contingency to practical use.

Me, I still can't figure out where all the money is actually going to be spent. I went through the numbers in detail when they came out and most of them were stuffed with contingencies amounting to about 50% over the subtotal, or a third of the final total.
True. For context, Vancouver built the Canada Line for less than our budget: longer line, more stations, more tunnel, and fully automated with 3-4 min frequencies all day (north of the split). Those are older year dollars, and they got stuck with too-short two car train sets, but still!

(to be fair, our station drawings do look much prettier)

PS, this is all in the wrong thread, should be in the RT Network Developments thread
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  #4927  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2012, 1:04 AM
eternallyme eternallyme is offline
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$2 billion is unrealistic for private funding. But $100 million doesn't seem all that unrealistic for the extra downtown station, especially with the ridership growth that would come. In that case, they could shift the Rideau station even farther east, into the heart of the Byward Market with the Rideau Centre as the western entrance.

How would the stations be named in the end? If there are three stations, they should be:

* Library/Centretown (Bibliotheque/Centre-Ville)
* Parliament (Parlement)
* Confederation Square (Place de la Confédération)
* Rideau Centre/Lowertown (Centre Rideau/Basse-Ville)
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  #4928  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2012, 2:11 AM
Admiral Nelson Admiral Nelson is offline
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Originally Posted by eternallyme View Post
$2 billion is unrealistic for private funding. But $100 million doesn't seem all that unrealistic for the extra downtown station, especially with the ridership growth that would come. In that case, they could shift the Rideau station even farther east, into the heart of the Byward Market with the Rideau Centre as the western entrance.

How would the stations be named in the end? If there are three stations, they should be:

* Library/Centretown (Bibliotheque/Centre-Ville)
* Parliament (Parlement)
* Confederation Square (Place de la Confédération)
* Rideau Centre/Lowertown (Centre Rideau/Basse-Ville)
I'm a fan
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  #4929  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2012, 3:15 AM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Originally Posted by eltodesukane View Post
They seem to be downgrading and dumming down the LRT stations to stay within the budget.
This is not the way to go.
The stations should be as good as can be.
If the budget is not enough, then they should cancel/postpone the outlying stations (Blair, Cyrville, Tunney's Pasture), not cheapen everything.
If not Blair and Tunney's, then termini where?
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  #4930  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2012, 11:56 AM
eltodesukane eltodesukane is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uhuniau View Post
If not Blair and Tunney's, then termini where?
If not Blair then Cyrville.
If not Tunney's then Bayview.
My point is design and build it well, and if it's too expensive to do, then for now do only the central part of the line.
http://i42.tinypic.com/21o92ww.png
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  #4931  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2012, 3:33 PM
eltodesukane eltodesukane is offline
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What about the NCC?

What about the NCC? Can they not contribute something toward a downtown LRT?
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  #4932  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2012, 4:10 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
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I have often argued that Bayview should be the western terminus until we know what we are doing with the western extension. But on the other hand, it has also often been stated that we are building the absolute minimum system to be useful. I totally agree that moving the eastern terminus closer to downtown will make the system not worthwhile. Besides, is there sufficient space at either Cyrville or St. Laurent to create a transfer station big enough to handle all the passenger and bus traffic?
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  #4933  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2012, 5:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eltodesukane View Post
If not Blair then Cyrville.
I think you'd be better off pulling it back to St. Laurent Station, which is already a multi-level station with a fairly large local bus level on top and which is accessible from the Transitway to the east.

Cyrville is like Tunney's: it's not a natural major transfer hub once the line is extended beyond it. We would just be building a white elephant for the future.

Another option is to pull it back to Train but with the major transfer hub being at Hurdman (a line of some sort has to be built to Train to access the railyard).

Quote:
If not Tunney's then Bayview.
I tend to think that's a better idea anyway. There's enough room at Bayview to design a transfer station that allows for cross-platform transfers in both directions. The only reason Tunney's is being offered up as a terminus is for the benefit of east-end residents working at Tunney's so they don't have to transfer. No such consideration has been given to anyone working in Hull for the last few decades (excepting those who can make sole use of the #8 or #40).


Personally, I'd go with Lincoln Fields to Hurdman/Train since that ensures that LRT covers the busy central portion of the system (there is higher ridership between Lincoln Fields and Tunney's Pasture than there is between Blair and Hurdman) where BRT loses the most money versus LRT up to the points where it forks apart into separate transitways. If that can't be afforded with a tunnel, go on the surface downtown and push the east end out as far as Blair if possible with any leftover funds since the Hurdman-Blair segment is the most intensively used segment after the core LF-Hurdman segment.
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  #4934  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2012, 6:26 PM
c_speed3108 c_speed3108 is offline
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
I think you'd be better off pulling it back to St. Laurent Station, which is already a multi-level station with a fairly large local bus level on top and which is accessible from the Transitway to the east.

Cyrville is like Tunney's: it's not a natural major transfer hub once the line is extended beyond it. We would just be building a white elephant for the future.

Another option is to pull it back to Train but with the major transfer hub being at Hurdman (a line of some sort has to be built to Train to access the railyard).



I tend to think that's a better idea anyway. There's enough room at Bayview to design a transfer station that allows for cross-platform transfers in both directions. The only reason Tunney's is being offered up as a terminus is for the benefit of east-end residents working at Tunney's so they don't have to transfer. No such consideration has been given to anyone working in Hull for the last few decades (excepting those who can make sole use of the #8 or #40).


Personally, I'd go with Lincoln Fields to Hurdman/Train since that ensures that LRT covers the busy central portion of the system (there is higher ridership between Lincoln Fields and Tunney's Pasture than there is between Blair and Hurdman) where BRT loses the most money versus LRT up to the points where it forks apart into separate transitways. If that can't be afforded with a tunnel, go on the surface downtown and push the east end out as far as Blair if possible with any leftover funds since the Hurdman-Blair segment is the most intensively used segment after the core LF-Hurdman segment.
They don't have a way to get to Lincoln fields - at least not yet.

I don't really understand why everyone wants a station in confederation square. There is very little in the way of destinations in confederation square (aside from the NAC) and it is easily in walking distance of Rideau center and the station by World Exchange. Zillions of people walk around that area everyday. It is also along the local bus routes if people really don't want to walk or can't. We don't need another station slowing everything down. We are really stop-happy in this city. This is a rapid transit line, not a local route. All they need to do is nudge the downtown east station a little bit east and everything is fine.

It is the same mistake they made building the Queensway way back when. Every bloodly street doesn't need a ramp.
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  #4935  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2012, 7:17 PM
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Originally Posted by c_speed3108 View Post
It is also along the local bus routes if people really don't want to walk or can't. We don't need another station slowing everything down. We are really stop-happy in this city.
HA! exhibit A:
Lincoln Fields to Bayview, a corridor about 8km long through an already dense and still rapidly-growing part of town: 4.5 stations (Dominion really hardly counts). And the "stop happy" LRT plan? It would add one more station to (and I repeat) this already-dense and still rapidly intensifying part of town.
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  #4936  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2012, 8:07 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
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Regarding downtown stations, I point everybody to Tim Lane's letter in Ken Grey's blog. As stated, pedestrian congestion is also an issue. Downtown is THE destination for LRT. Let's make it easy to access. At the present time, the Downtown East station is between Bank and O'Connor. Some of our most major construction downtown right now is on Elgin Street or on the block between Elgin and Metcalfe. The NAC is a red herring in this story. What is more important is the distance between O'Connor Street and the Rideau Street station. This is a long walk and remember we already have some important buildings south of the NAC, namely Place Bell, the courthouse and City Hall.

It is also no wonder that the Lord Elgin Hotel is spearheading an offer of money for an Elgin Street station. They will be in a transit hole and if we ever get LRT going to the airport, their hotel will be at a competitive disadvantage compared to other downtown hotels more accessible to rapid transit stations with direct access from the airport. But then again, the future will likely be, shuttle bus, O-Train, LRT, which will turn off almost all business travellers and tourists. Leave it to Ottawa. We are experts at screwing everything up.

Regarding, rerouting LRT to the west. Won't a major change of this nature simply delay the project by years yet again?
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  #4937  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2012, 9:31 PM
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http://www.obj.ca/Local/City-Hall/20...Elgin-Street/1

From OBJ;

Quote:
The National Arts Centre will work with the city to consider constructing a tunnel connecting Elgin Street to the closest light-rail station along Queen Street, to "fill the hole in the centre of the city," as transit chair Diane Deans put it.


Topics : NAC , Elgin Street , Queen Street , O'Connor Street
The tunnel to connect Elgin Street to the nearest station for commuting during bad weather was one of two motions tabled by Ms. Deans and approved by city council on Wednesday morning. The other proposed a shift of the station at the corner of Queen Street and O'Connor Street further east towards Metcalfe Street to better service the NAC and Confederation Square.

Transit connections to Elgin Street are important "not only for its beautiful national monuments," said NAC communications director Rosemary Thompson, "but also for the working people of Ottawa."

Large office towers on Elgin Street accommodate more than 15,000 workers she said.

Neither amendment to the LRT transit plan would have been possible without the proposed contribution of $2 million dollars by Lord Elgin Hotel owner Jeff Gillin and his family in an effort to move the station back to the street.

"I think that when the Gillins made this offer, councillors were captivated," she said. "They were struck by this incredible gesture. Suddenly we had this spirit of goodwill to figure something out for Elgin Street."

NAC staff members met with Ms. Deans last night to discuss the tunnel feasibility study, which will determine where it would go, what it would cost and how to pay for it, Ms. Deans said. Funding would have to come from the private sector, she added, and not from the city.

City staff will conduct a study to determine whether the downtown-east station could be moved further eastward, examining factors such as transit connectivity (whether bus commuters could easily access the station), cost, technical feasibility (if the station will need to be dug any deeper or involve any major changes) and procurement implications (whether the bidding teams will be able to handle the changes).

Ms. Deans said those findings will be presented to council in around three months.

The Elgin Street uprising began when the city decided to move the Rideau station closer to the ByWard market and farther from Elgin Street, which would service around 6,000 more riders, Ms. Deans said.

"That does appear to be the right thing to do, but it did create a hole in what is perceived as the centre of the city. It's not the actual centre, but it's the ceremonial centre of the city," she said, referring to Confederation Square.
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  #4938  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2012, 11:24 PM
S-Man S-Man is offline
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But on the other hand, it has also often been stated that we are building the absolute minimum system to be useful.
Agreed, and Tunneys and Blair make sense as being busy hubs of different workers (retail and government). any shorter and it would be next to useless. That said, an extra downtown station would be great if the money materialized somehow.

While I understand people's assertion that there should be a landmark station at Confederation Park/war memorial to wow tourists, I'm more closely aligned with the 'built it to serve people who live and work here' crowd.
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  #4939  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2012, 11:30 PM
S-Man S-Man is offline
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Agreed though, that the Dt East station should be closer to Metcalfe. Even if just a bit.
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  #4940  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2012, 11:39 PM
Admiral Nelson Admiral Nelson is offline
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It's ridiculous that the city won't pony up any cash for a Confederation Square station. It's a drop in the bucket for such a giant project.
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