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  #61  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2013, 9:28 PM
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Originally Posted by patm View Post
What we need is European pedestrian laws.

Get the FUCK out of the way of any car with no red light unless you want to die motherfucker.
Why would we want this as a law? Pedestrians have the right of way and that's the right way to do it.
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  #62  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2013, 9:39 PM
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Why would we want this as a law? Pedestrians have the right of way and that's the right way to do it.
That way everyone looks both god damn ways and doesn't assume that everyone can see them when they step on to a road. Pedestrians are easy to stop and control. If they're the ones responsible for looking, then there is almost no chance that they step into traffic blindly and get hit by a car that they didn't see.

The same cannot be said for cars. A lot of things can obscure a drivers vision (sun, distraction.. etc.) and guess what, 3 ton cars going 50-60 km/h are a lot harder to stop in time.

Makes ZERO, ABSOLUTELY ZERO sense in my mind that pedestrians have the right of way at intersections without lights.
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  #63  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2013, 9:49 PM
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Originally Posted by patm View Post
That way everyone looks both god damn ways and doesn't assume that everyone can see them when they step on to a road. Pedestrians are easy to stop and control. If they're the ones responsible for looking, then there is almost no chance that they step into traffic blindly and get hit by a car that they didn't see.

The same cannot be said for cars. A lot of things can obscure a drivers vision (sun, distraction.. etc.) and guess what, 3 ton cars going 50-60 km/h are a lot harder to stop in time.

Makes ZERO, ABSOLUTELY ZERO sense in my mind that pedestrians have the right of way at intersections without lights.
There's no reason the pedestrian should just step in front of a car. If common sense is applied (i.e. the pedestrian and driver make eye contact prior to the pedestrian stepping out in the road) then there is no issue.

My beef with giving cars the right of way is that as a pedestrian I'll be standing at the corner at an unmarked crosswalk for 20 minutes in rush hour before I can cross. As it is, most drivers stop for me, but if they have the right of way and know it, I bet this will change fast. I think that because cars are the more dangerous of the 2, we need to make the rules such that drivers have to pay extra attention.
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  #64  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2013, 10:03 PM
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Why did the residents of Sunnyside reject the move of the pedestrian crossing to 8st that was proposed as part of the Peace Bridge project? what with their concern for safety and all...
I had heard there was some miscommunication and they thought the plan was to just add the 8th st cross, so they thought there would be 2 crossings a block apart.
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  #65  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2013, 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by DizzyEdge View Post
I had heard there was some miscommunication and they thought the plan was to just add the 8th st cross, so they thought there would be 2 crossings a block apart.
That's valid then. They definitely need to move that crosswalk though.
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  #66  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2013, 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by DizzyEdge View Post
I had heard there was some miscommunication and they thought the plan was to just add the 8th st cross, so they thought there would be 2 crossings a block apart.
My recollection was the other way around. The cross walk on 7th would move to 8th street when the residents of Sunnyside wanted cross walks and intersections at 7th, 8th and 10th streets. I could be wrong.
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  #67  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2013, 9:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Calgarian View Post
There's no reason the pedestrian should just step in front of a car. If common sense is applied (i.e. the pedestrian and driver make eye contact prior to the pedestrian stepping out in the road) then there is no issue.

My beef with giving cars the right of way is that as a pedestrian I'll be standing at the corner at an unmarked crosswalk for 20 minutes in rush hour before I can cross. As it is, most drivers stop for me, but if they have the right of way and know it, I bet this will change fast. I think that because cars are the more dangerous of the 2, we need to make the rules such that drivers have to pay extra attention.
Yes common sense says that you shouldn't just walk into the street when there is a car coming yet pedestrians still get hit. Every single one of those pedestrians walked into the street when there was a car coming. Every SINGLE one. If cars have the right of way that would never happen.

Put pedestrian lights up at those kind of intersections. Not like the ones we currently have where each pedestrian gets the magical power to stop all traffic for themselves but ones that have a delay just like at real intersections.

Thats a very backwards way of fixing that specific problem. Somethings you can't fix with a law, like the sun glaring into your eyes. Even with the best sunglasses you could still miss someone walking into the middle of the street like an idiot.
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  #68  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2013, 3:26 PM
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Originally Posted by patm View Post
Yes common sense says that you shouldn't just walk into the street when there is a car coming yet pedestrians still get hit. Every single one of those pedestrians walked into the street when there was a car coming. Every SINGLE one. If cars have the right of way that would never happen.

Put pedestrian lights up at those kind of intersections. Not like the ones we currently have where each pedestrian gets the magical power to stop all traffic for themselves but ones that have a delay just like at real intersections.

Thats a very backwards way of fixing that specific problem. Somethings you can't fix with a law, like the sun glaring into your eyes. Even with the best sunglasses you could still miss someone walking into the middle of the street like an idiot.
It's not true that every pedestrian that is hit did not walk into a street when a car was coming. There are cases where pedestrians have been struck when crossing a crosswalk in a lit intersection when a vehicle turns into the crosswalk and strikes them in the middle of the crosswalk. There is no way a pedestrian can prepare for that outcome. There are also cases where pedestrians have been struck and the road is clear when they start to proceed across and then a vehicle comes from an alleyway to turn and strike them.

The current system implies a shared risk between both the pedestrian, the driver and the broader public. If a pedestrian is struck in a crosswalk, they may be maimed and may become harder for them to have a good paying job in the future. The driver will be fined according to the laws, and the public picks up the tab for paying for the health care costs that result. The pedestrian that is injured and the public by means of taxpayers carry the majority of the burden.

In addition, there have been large number of studies done on the value of active mobility to the public and that there is a mean benefit to cost ratio for pedestrian/cycling of 5:1. So by a large margin the benefits of walking/biking outweigh the risks.

Lastly by installing a timed delay for intersections would result in pedestrian randomized timing for crossing and negate the option for pedestrians who choose to press the button when there is a lull in the traffic (which is what I always do as I evaluate what other users of the road are doing and can make choices not to screw over vehicles that would otherwise have to decelerate to a stop).

Last edited by Radley77; Jun 6, 2013 at 4:53 PM.
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  #69  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2013, 7:03 PM
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Originally Posted by patm View Post
Yes common sense says that you shouldn't just walk into the street when there is a car coming yet pedestrians still get hit. Every single one of those pedestrians walked into the street when there was a car coming. Every SINGLE one. If cars have the right of way that would never happen.

Put pedestrian lights up at those kind of intersections. Not like the ones we currently have where each pedestrian gets the magical power to stop all traffic for themselves but ones that have a delay just like at real intersections.

Thats a very backwards way of fixing that specific problem. Somethings you can't fix with a law, like the sun glaring into your eyes. Even with the best sunglasses you could still miss someone walking into the middle of the street like an idiot.
Pedestrian accidents more often than not occur because of driver inattention, I would bet that there are very few accidents each year where the pedestrian wasn't in a mark crosswalk.

The party with the most at stake should always have the right of way, a car is a 2000-4000 pound block of metal protecting its occupants, pedestrians/cyclists do not have this protection. If a pedestrian/cyclist takes a risk they risk only themselves physically, if a driver takes a risk they risk everyone around them as well as themselves.

As a pedestrian/cyclist it takes me much more human energy to accelerate from a stop than the driver, sorry I will press the crosswalk button when I arrive at the intersection, I will not wait for a break in traffic. If they happen to coincide that's great for the drivers.

If a driver is blinded by the sun, then they should slow down to the point where if something happens they can stop, speed limits are not the recommended speed only a maximum and a vehicle should only travel those speeds in ideal conditions (i.e. right next to never).
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  #70  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2013, 7:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Full Mountain View Post
Pedestrian accidents more often than not occur because of driver inattention, I would bet that there are very few accidents each year where the pedestrian wasn't in a mark crosswalk.

The party with the most at stake should always have the right of way, a car is a 2000-4000 pound block of metal protecting its occupants, pedestrians/cyclists do not have this protection. If a pedestrian/cyclist takes a risk they risk only themselves physically, if a driver takes a risk they risk everyone around them as well as themselves.

As a pedestrian/cyclist it takes me much more human energy to accelerate from a stop than the driver, sorry I will press the crosswalk button when I arrive at the intersection, I will not wait for a break in traffic. If they happen to coincide that's great for the drivers.

If a driver is blinded by the sun, then they should slow down to the point where if something happens they can stop, speed limits are not the recommended speed only a maximum and a vehicle should only travel those speeds in ideal conditions (i.e. right next to never).
This echos my thoughts almost exactly.

We can't protect people all the time, someone will do something stupid despite our best intentions (like the girl in Montreal who was texting and walked between to moving subway cars and died). Like Full Mountain said, and I said before, the people who can do the most damage (motorists) should be the ones who are forced to pay the most attention, and in this case that means surrendering the right of way to those who have the most to lose (pedestrians / cyclists).

In addition, we are trying to encourage people to not rely on driving everywhere (especially in the inner city), making it less convenient for them to do this would be counterproductive to that result.
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  #71  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2013, 7:27 PM
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Originally Posted by patm View Post
Yes common sense says that you shouldn't just walk into the street when there is a car coming yet pedestrians still get hit. Every single one of those pedestrians walked into the street when there was a car coming. Every SINGLE one. If cars have the right of way that would never happen.
Do you walk much? I'm getting the impression that you really don't. For example, when a car is trying to turn right at a red light, the driver is usually looking left and has no idea that there are pedestrians coming from their right (whose right of way it absolutely is) and can suddenly floor it to beat an oncoming car and cream someone who they didn't even know was there. I've kicked so many peoples cars who just about ran me over due to their own incompetence. Basically my point is that it isn't always the pedestrians fault as you say it is, the driver is guilty just as often.

Like I said, the biggest thing is to pay attention and use common sense. This is getting to be a big city and we have a lot of people getting around in a lot of different ways. People need to be aware of everyone and everything that is going on around them, regardless of whose right of way it is.
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  #72  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2013, 8:13 PM
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Map of Pedestrian Fatalities in the Downtown
Purple markers are the fatalities, and yellow dots are other major and minor injury locations
I'd like to see Alderman Mar being a bigger champion to bringing safer intersection and street design in addition to his current crime focus.
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  #73  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2013, 10:16 PM
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Can I ask where you got the collision data, Radley77? I'd love to see it if I could.
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  #74  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2013, 3:07 PM
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Can I ask where you got the collision data, Radley77? I'd love to see it if I could.
The pedestrian and cyclist accident info is from the Calgary Police Service via a request I made under the FOIP act. I plan to work with community associations, AMA, Bike Calgary and other community organizations before making the full data set publicly available. Repeatability shows predictability and hope to work with these and other organizations to offer suggestions for change...
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  #75  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2013, 3:47 PM
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User "30 for Sunnyside" sure seems to have gone silent in this thread.
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  #76  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2013, 6:37 PM
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As being a former resident of Airdrie (where all residential streets are signed at 30kph and everybody drives them at 40). I just naturally tend to do that on similar looking streets in Calgary and passively wondering where are all the signs went and what the actually speed limit was. Now that I know what the true limit is thanks to information presented here and being ever so slightly miffed by being socially engineered by safety advocates in my former city.... I will adjust my speed accordingly.
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  #77  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2013, 7:52 PM
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The posted speed limit on my kid free street is 20 k/ph. God likes us better than Sunnyside.
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  #78  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2013, 12:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Radley77 View Post
The pedestrian and cyclist accident info is from the Calgary Police Service via a request I made under the FOIP act. I plan to work with community associations, AMA, Bike Calgary and other community organizations before making the full data set publicly available. Repeatability shows predictability and hope to work with these and other organizations to offer suggestions for change...
You can't upload the files CPS gave you to Google Drive, Scribd or the like? *wink-wink, nudge-nudge*
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  #79  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2013, 4:25 PM
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The only thing I want to add to this post is that many of these standard traffic rules, such as the 50km/h speed limit were established during a completely different technological era. Cars have become magnitudes safer (for pedestrians and cyclists as well) since then, yet the old rules remain. All I have to do is drive my 2.5 ton, single brake cylinder, drum brake 1965 Dodge to be reminded of this fact.
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You're exactly right, and I didn't even touch on that, was trying to be conservative. Technically most of our speed limits can be increased without adding to safety concerns. So if anything, 50 is "too slow" for many residential areas.
Survivability rates for pedestrians in vehicle collisions go from 95% at 30 to 15% at ~60. I hardly think that raising the speed limits around pedestrians is a right approach. Time to reorder our priorities, Chicago has recently changed from cars first to pedestrians first, then transit, bikes, and cars last. I think this is something that needs to be done ASAP in Calgary, part of this would be changing the default speed limit to 30 unless otherwise signed (most currently signed roads wouldn't need to be changed).
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  #80  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2013, 6:35 PM
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Originally Posted by RyLucky View Post
Nobody drives fast in sunnyside. We don't need a reduced speed limit. We don't need any traffic calming.

What we do need is a xwalk on memorial at 8th st.
No kidding, if there is one single safety issue in Sunnyside it’s that everyday countless people are jay walking across busy Memorial drive. Poor planning if you ask me.
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