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  #101  
Old Posted May 9, 2018, 4:30 PM
kora kora is offline
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A lot of people in Calgary think Vancouver is 4 or 5 million people
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  #102  
Old Posted May 9, 2018, 4:32 PM
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I get the 2 Congos mixed up.
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  #103  
Old Posted May 9, 2018, 4:39 PM
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Guinea
Equatorial Guinea*
Guinea-Bissau
Papua New Guinea


And then there is:

British Guinea, or British New Guinea, another name for the Territory of Papua, a former colony in what is now Papua New Guinea
Danish Guinea, another name for Danish Gold Coast, a former colony in what is now Ghana, West Africa
Dutch Guinea, or Dutch New Guinea, another name for Netherlands New Guinea, a former colony in what is now Indonesian Papua
French Guinea, a former colony in West Africa, what is now Guinea
German Guinea, another name for the former colonies of Kamerun and Togoland in West Africa
German Guinea, or German New Guinea, a former colony in what is now Papua New Guinea
Portuguese Guinea, a former colony in West Africa, what is now Guinea-Bissau
Spanish Guinea, a former colony in West Africa, what is now Equatorial Guinea
Swedish Guinea, another name for Swedish Gold Coast, a former colony in what is now Ghana, West Africa


*trivia tidbit: During Macías Nguema's government, the country had neither a development plan nor an accounting system for government funds. After the killing of the governor of the Central Bank, he carried everything that remained in the national treasury to his house in a rural village. On Christmas Eve of 1975 about 150 of his opponents were killed. Soldiers executed them by shooting at the football stadium in Malabo, while amplifiers were playing Mary Hopkin's song "Those Were the Days."
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  #104  
Old Posted May 9, 2018, 4:42 PM
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Originally Posted by someone123 View Post
Well, what can you say about personal preferences?

But one observation I can make is that Portland and Seattle these days are flooded with transplants from California. I notice the "wilting flower" phenomenon much more in BC than I do in the United States, including transplants or would-be transplants from areas that make Vancouver's weather look really crappy in comparison. Outside of maybe the far north there is nothing in Canada equivalent to a move from LA to Minneapolis.

Americans will talk about up and coming cities. It's not unusual for San Franciscans or Seattleites to muse about moving to Boise or Austin (admittedly because they are being pushed out by a broken housing market, but Vancouver is similar). In Vancouver it's more common to hear people talk about how the rest of Canada offers nothing of value (or nothing that could possibly make up for the huge drawbacks) and how leaving the basement apartment to move to Toronto or Montreal would result in death.

I think this is a not-so-great aspect of Canadian and BC/Vancouver culture.
I agree with you for sure. Vancouverites can definitely be prima donnas with regards to weather and extremely closed-minded because of this. However, you do see the housing crisis pushing people out to Edmonton and Calgary so it certainly has its limits, and I'm sure you'll meet Californians who would refuse to entertain the idea of moving north. But I'm not using that as an excuse, and I do agree about the strange smugness that comes out of the south BC coast.

Another part of it though is that Canadians seem to move far less within our own country in general, so it's easier to fall into these tribal traps. You do hear about these boomtowns in the US like the Pacific Northwest, Austin, etc that are born largely out of domestic migration, whereas in Canada people seem to be happier to just stay in place. Or if they move, they're more likely to be "forced out" rather than move for adventure or opportunity or something like that.

It's true that the US has more cities to choose from, but it's not like Canada doesn't have any - people are just content to stay home. If all of Canada was part of the US, I could see cities like Winnipeg or Saint John becoming popular with young people and hipsters, but obviously that's not happening. I'm not saying this is a bad thing either; I fully intend on living as much of my life in Vancouver as I can. But it does make our urban areas a little more stale and I think it makes people a little more inward-looking as well, as cultural cues from those around you rule out the idea of moving around as normal pretty early on. Everyone knows the story of the Great Hipster Migration to Portland - the closest thing we've had is the Great Economically-Driven Migration to Alberta, which just isn't the same.
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  #105  
Old Posted May 9, 2018, 4:51 PM
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Originally Posted by someone123 View Post
In Vancouver it's more common to hear people talk about how the rest of Canada offers nothing of value (or nothing that could possibly make up for the huge drawbacks) and how leaving the basement apartment to move to Toronto or Montreal would result in death.
Yeah, I definitely experienced this during my years in Vancouver - it seemed like a lot of people there (particularly born-and-raised Vancouverites) would rather move to another country than anywhere else in Canada outside of BC.
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  #106  
Old Posted May 9, 2018, 5:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Metro-One View Post
These misconceptions can be said for people from anywhere in the country.

How many people know that the driest town in Canada south of 60 is in BC? (Ashcroft)

How many people know that Victoria is actually drier than many cities in Ontario and Quebec and has the sunniest summer in Canada despite being the “wet coast?”

Heck, Signalhillhiker years ago though that St. John’s and Vancouver had the same climate (Old call back, but I do remember this conversation) and he still seems to forget about BC, especially the hot interior, and even southern Ontario, when generalizing about Canadian weather.

Also for the record, there are people in Vancouver (and more so in Victoria) who would not like winter in Kelowna, and also would not like summer their either. I know some people who hate Osoyoos because of the heat (I personally think they are nuts).

If I was to classify Canada climatically it would have 4 general zones.

First would be the south cost of BC, championed by Victoria. This is the least “Canadian” zone climatically.

Second Zone would be the hot interior valleys of BC and extreme Southern Ontario. I call this the “Canadian Special” in that summer is reliably hot and decently long. For the BC valleys spring is nice and early and for extreme Southern Ontario fall is nice and long. Overall with all weather factors considered throughout the year these two zones I would personally consider to be decent climates. Osoyoos being my personal choice.

The third is most broad, “Classic Canadian” For me, with all weather factors considered, this is the majority of Canada that is not listed in the two zones above. Obviously there are differences throughout this region, but overal to me it kind of feels the same with different trade offs that even out in the end.

Fourth is the tundra / far north / mountain tops.

Two spots that don’t fall into these categories are extreme Southern Coastal Nova Scotia and the North Coast of BC. I seriously don’t know where to place them, they are not zone one but can’t put them in zone two, three, or four either.

Now of course these are very rough categories and there will always be grey zones near their boundaries (and between seasons), but this is just my very broad general view of Canada.
Thanks for all that info Metro. Keep it on hand the next time someone says the contrary again.
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  #107  
Old Posted May 9, 2018, 5:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Skygazer View Post
Yeah, I definitely experienced this during my years in Vancouver - it seemed like a lot of people there (particularly born-and-raised Vancouverites) would rather move to another country than anywhere else in Canada outside of BC.
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  #108  
Old Posted May 9, 2018, 7:31 PM
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Originally Posted by GlassCity View Post
Another part of it though is that Canadians seem to move far less within our own country in general, so it's easier to fall into these tribal traps. You do hear about these boomtowns in the US like the Pacific Northwest, Austin, etc that are born largely out of domestic migration, whereas in Canada people seem to be happier to just stay in place. Or if they move, they're more likely to be "forced out" rather than move for adventure or opportunity or something like that.

It's true that the US has more cities to choose from, but it's not like Canada doesn't have any - people are just content to stay home. If all of Canada was part of the US, I could see cities like Winnipeg or Saint John becoming popular with young people and hipsters, but obviously that's not happening. I'm not saying this is a bad thing either; I fully intend on living as much of my life in Vancouver as I can. But it does make our urban areas a little more stale and I think it makes people a little more inward-looking as well, as cultural cues from those around you rule out the idea of moving around as normal pretty early on. Everyone knows the story of the Great Hipster Migration to Portland - the closest thing we've had is the Great Economically-Driven Migration to Alberta, which just isn't the same.
Is there any stats to show how much migration happens in Canada? Is it really that different than the US?

I've moved a few times within the same province during my 20s. In the US, the distances involved would have probably crossed state lines, but Ontario's frikkin' huge. I've known a few friends have moved around a bit early in life.

I suppose Canada is like a bunch of small self-contained islands. Unless you have a particular reason to leave that 'island', why would you?
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  #109  
Old Posted May 9, 2018, 7:39 PM
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Originally Posted by wave46 View Post
Is there any stats to show how much migration happens in Canada? Is it really that different than the US?

I've moved a few times within the same province during my 20s. In the US, the distances involved would have probably crossed state lines, but Ontario's frikkin' huge. I've known a few friends have moved around a bit early in life.

I suppose Canada is like a bunch of small self-contained islands. Unless you have a particular reason to leave that 'island', why would you?
I don't have stats and could very well be talking out my ass, but it's just the perception I have. American cities grow really quickly as they gain popularity (Portland, Seattle, Austin, Charlotte, Nashville, etc.) and others lose population as their residents seek greener pastures (Rust Belt, Appalachia). You just hear a lot more in the US about people going places because they're "the cool places to be." They still have cities constantly trading places with each other in population lists as they compete with each other for residents, whereas in Canada everything's fairly stable. Just creates the impression that there isn't as much movement.
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  #110  
Old Posted May 9, 2018, 7:56 PM
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It is definitely the perception I get too. And it's obvious why, as pointed out already. Lots of population centres and lots of habitable land and cities to move to.

I have two cousins in Florida (brother and sister). One went to Atlanta on a football scholarship but returned to Miami when done and he's still there because he's in sales and love the lifestyle.

His sister went to school at Columbia in NYC and took her first job in Philly. Then went back to NYC. Then DC. Now back in Ft. Lauderdale.

NYC, PHI, DC are all really close to each other and offer different levels of affordability and city life. And she could always hop on Amtrak to visit her friends. But after 12 years she couldn't take the winters anymore, though she liked the NE city lifestyle. So she took the first decent job she could find back home.

Also got a bunch of 2nd cousins from NJ/NY area. They spread out to Boston and Carolina either for school or their first jobs.

Of all my 1st cousins, I have 14 in the GTA. Grew up with all of them because we were all concentrated in North York first then Brampton or Markham. They range from 20 to 45 years old now. Every single one of them is still in the GTA, just spread out a little bit more. Half are professionals and half are blue collar/trades. But my bro and sis are in St. Catharines and Montreal, so not even that far.

Oh and my cousin from FLA was always surprised when he'd come visit in the summer and start complaining about the humidity. Thought he'd get a break from the oppressive heat. Another misconception.
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  #111  
Old Posted May 9, 2018, 8:09 PM
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Originally Posted by GlassCity View Post
They still have cities constantly trading places with each other in population lists as they compete with each other for residents, whereas in Canada everything's fairly stable. Just creates the impression that there isn't as much movement.
I think that's not true if you look at apples to apples. Say, if you look at the 20 main cities in the U.S. and compare that to the 20 main cities in Canada, I don't think you'd see a big difference in the number of trades of place.

Actually Canada had a pretty major trade at the top (Montreal -> Toronto) while the U.S. did not (no one currently alive has known anything but NYC as #1).

The American top three has also not changed in decades (NYC, LA, Chicago in that order).

In Canada we've seen switches too - from memory, stuff like Saskatoon passing London, Alberta cities passing Ottawa-Gatineau, etc. that I think would mirror what happened in the U.S. more or less.

I think this misconception simply and naturally comes from the fact that the list of cities we're looking at (usually the "significant cities" only) is much longer in the U.S. so you see more changes of rank, but that's mostly just because the list of cities we pay attention to is longer. You see Houston passing Philly and it registers on your radar as a noteworthy change of ranking, while Hamilton passing Halifax wouldn't show on the radar for example. (Fictional examples, of course.)
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  #112  
Old Posted May 9, 2018, 8:12 PM
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Originally Posted by GlassCity View Post
I don't have stats and could very well be talking out my ass, but it's just the perception I have. American cities grow really quickly as they gain popularity (Portland, Seattle, Austin, Charlotte, Nashville, etc.) and others lose population as their residents seek greener pastures (Rust Belt, Appalachia). You just hear a lot more in the US about people going places because they're "the cool places to be." They still have cities constantly trading places with each other in population lists as they compete with each other for residents, whereas in Canada everything's fairly stable. Just creates the impression that there isn't as much movement.
I guess you've a different perspective since you're coming from a larger city, while I'm coming from a smaller (and declining) area. I've worked with many people who have left small towns and moved to bigger cities.

I suspect that the various regional incentive programs limited the economic swings in Canada to a degree, reducing the incentive to move.

In addition the weather isn't enough reason to move IMO (at least within Canada), there's also the language barrier for Quebec could be an inhibition for movement into and out of the province.

Canadian cities (aside from Montreal) tend to be fairly homogeneous as well. Whereas Nashville, Austin or Portland might have different vibes, the differences between Ottawa, Calgary and Edmonton tend to be more muted. There's always outliers (St. John's, for instance), but that's the exception.
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  #113  
Old Posted May 9, 2018, 8:18 PM
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As you (wave46) point out though, Ontario is an outlier in size. A closer equivalent to that would be TX in the U.S. (largest state on the contiguous mainland) where people from depressed rural areas usually end up in the big cities without having to cross state borders. I don't doubt that nearly everybody leaving rural Ontario for "The City" ends up in the GTA.

By contrast, in the Maritimes, which are closer in size to Northeastern states, I'm sure it's common to have someone from PEI end up in Halifax or Moncton. Meanwhile in Ontario or Texas the exact equivalent to this person would actually likely end up further away from home by moving to Toronto or Houston for opportunity.
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  #114  
Old Posted May 9, 2018, 8:24 PM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
I think that's not true if you look at apples to apples. Say, if you look at the 20 main cities in the U.S. and compare that to the 20 main cities in Canada, I don't think you'd see a big difference in the number of trades of place.

Actually Canada had a pretty major trade at the top (Montreal -> Toronto) while the U.S. did not (no one currently alive has known anything but NYC as #1).

The American top three has also not changed in decades (NYC, LA, Chicago in that order).

In Canada we've seen switches too - from memory, stuff like Saskatoon passing London, Alberta cities passing Ottawa-Gatineau, etc. that I think would mirror what happened in the U.S. more or less.

I think this misconception simply and naturally comes from the fact that the list of cities we're looking at (usually the "significant cities" only) is much longer in the U.S. so you see more changes of rank, but that's mostly just because the list of cities we pay attention to is longer. You see Houston passing Philly and it registers on your radar as a noteworthy change of ranking, while Hamilton passing Halifax wouldn't show on the radar for example. (Fictional examples, of course.)
Fair enough about cities maybe passing each other at similar scales (though I have no idea where you heard that Saskatoon passed London). Still though, there are clearly some "hot" cities to move to in the US right now - what are some such Canadian cities? My own quick answer would be the 4 Alberta/Saskatchewan cities, but even these are more economic moves than lifestyle ones.

To the original point, it seems like people in the US are more willing to move around whether for economic or lifestyle reasons, whereas in Canada people seem to cling onto their hometowns a little more. As far as I know, there isn't some great economic driver in Boise, yet it's growing like crazy. Seems like Americans are more likely to move just to "try something different" or "get out there."

Also, I'm aware I'm moving my goalposts a bit, arguing for lifestyle migration now rather than general population movement. I'm not being deceptive - you guys are just making good points that are forcing me to improve my argument!
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  #115  
Old Posted May 9, 2018, 8:27 PM
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Originally Posted by wave46 View Post
I guess you've a different perspective since you're coming from a larger city, while I'm coming from a smaller (and declining) area. I've worked with many people who have left small towns and moved to bigger cities.

I suspect that the various regional incentive programs limited the economic swings in Canada to a degree, reducing the incentive to move.

In addition the weather isn't enough reason to move IMO (at least within Canada), there's also the language barrier for Quebec could be an inhibition for movement into and out of the province.

Canadian cities (aside from Montreal) tend to be fairly homogeneous as well. Whereas Nashville, Austin or Portland might have different vibes, the differences between Ottawa, Calgary and Edmonton tend to be more muted. There's always outliers (St. John's, for instance), but that's the exception.
That's a good point about city size. I'm definitely talking about larger cities, maybe about 100,000+ population, that can typically hold onto their populations through the gravity of a larger mass. I think Canada and the US likely have similar rates of people moving from rural areas to cities, and I agree that in both cases people are likely to stay within their provinces/states and regions.

The homogeneity is a good point as well.
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  #116  
Old Posted May 9, 2018, 8:32 PM
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I'm curious as to how something like the distances between downtown Vancouver and it's suburban municipalities becomes a frequent topic of conversation in Toronto.
Where it has come up is for business travel and where to stay in relation to the office. If the office is in Vancouver, there's a reluctance to get a hotel in Burnaby even if it's significantly cheaper than the Vancouver hotels, just because it's "so far away". This recently came up and a colleague doing the hotel booking thought Burnaby was over 50 km away from Vancouver, not realizing they're right next to each other.

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Really? "Up" to London and Windsor? "Down to Toronto"?

This sounds fantastically weird to me. I wonder if this was an idiosyncratic tick of a few students in Toronto?

As best I can tell, there's not much "up" and "down" in southern Ontario unless you're going to cottage country, or Owen Sound, or somewhere like Windsor. You'll hear "going to Toronto," not "going up to Toronto." Not even in Hamilton do people say "going up to Toronto."
In London I've often heard "up to Toronto". Never have heard that anywhere east of Toronto.

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As far as people's confusion with populations and things like that, I've learned to let it go. The average person doesn't give a flying fuck what the population of different cities is, and when you don't have something as a reference point, it's easy to not even have a general understanding of these things, leading to interview answers including the population of Canada as 50,000. Aside from feeling better about yourself on internet forums, the populations of different cities really don't matter to most people, so you can't blame them for not knowing anything about them. Think about how much the average person struggles with knowing how our elections work. We have bigger fish to fry.
This does become an important issue in business settings when you're dealing with budgeting and allocating to different geographic areas. I've had to step in when dealing with how to distribute marketing budgets within Ontario when people have made outlandish claims about Toronto's population relative to, say, Peterborough and budgets are to be allocated based on population. In one case a manager was claiming Toronto's population was over 6 million (the city, not the GTA) while also claiming the population of Peterborough was only 5,000. Based on the fact the client's budget was supposed to be allocated according to the population of each municipality we were contracted to work in, this was grossly incorrect and the client would have been incensed if I allocated almost all their budget to Toronto (in this case their business goal was to grow their business in Southern Ontario beyond the GTA).

The reason I get annoyed when people make these kinds of grandiose claims about Toronto or the GTA or diminutive claims about other cities is because it has real-world implications in both business and politics when decision-makers hold these beliefs.

Last edited by manny_santos; May 9, 2018 at 8:42 PM.
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  #117  
Old Posted May 9, 2018, 8:40 PM
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Where it has come up is for business travel and where to stay in relation to the office. If the office is in Vancouver, there's a reluctance to get a hotel in Burnaby even if it's significantly cheaper than the Vancouver hotels, just because it's "so far away". This recently came up and a colleague doing the hotel booking thought Burnaby was over 50 km away from Vancouver, not realizing they're right next to each other.



In London I've often heard "up to Toronto".



This does become an important issue in business settings when you're dealing with budgeting and allocating to different geographic areas. I've had to step in when dealing with how to distribute advertising budgets within Ontario when people have made outlandish claims about Toronto's population relative to, say, Peterborough and budgets are to be allocated based on population. In one case a manager was claiming Toronto's population was over 6 million (the city, not the GTA) while also claiming the population of Peterborough was only 5,000. Based on the fact the client's budget was supposed to be allocated according to the population of each municipality we were contracted to work in, this was grossly incorrect and the client would have been incensed if I allocated almost all their budget to Toronto (in this case their business goal was to grow their business in Southern Ontario beyond the GTA)
Oh absolutely, if it's important in your professional or even just day-to-day life, then it's really inexcusable to be so uninformed, or especially to just go with existing beliefs rather than to look it up. But if a baggage handler at the airport thinks the GTA has a population of 2 million or 20 million, I think it's really not the end of the world, nor particularly surprising.
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  #118  
Old Posted May 9, 2018, 8:42 PM
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Originally Posted by manny_santos View Post
Where it has come up is for business travel and where to stay in relation to the office. If the office is in Vancouver, there's a reluctance to get a hotel in Burnaby even if it's significantly cheaper than the Vancouver hotels, just because it's "so far away". This recently came up and a colleague doing the hotel booking thought Burnaby was over 50 km away from Vancouver, not realizing they're right next to each other.



In London I've often heard "up to Toronto".



This does become an important issue in business settings when you're dealing with budgeting and allocating to different geographic areas. I've had to step in when dealing with how to distribute advertising budgets within Ontario when people have made outlandish claims about Toronto's population relative to, say, Peterborough and budgets are to be allocated based on population. In one case a manager was claiming Toronto's population was over 6 million (the city, not the GTA) while also claiming the population of Peterborough was only 5,000. Based on the fact the client's budget was supposed to be allocated according to the population of each municipality we were contracted to work in, this was grossly incorrect and the client would have been incensed if I allocated almost all their budget to Toronto (in this case their business goal was to grow their business in Southern Ontario beyond the GTA).

The reason I get annoyed when people make these kinds of grandiose claims about Toronto or the GTA or diminutive claims about other cities is because it has real-world implications in both business and politics when decision-makers hold these beliefs.
That's a really good example. It has more serious implications that just looking dumb when playing trivia at the local bar.
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  #119  
Old Posted May 9, 2018, 8:55 PM
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Oh absolutely, if it's important in your professional or even just day-to-day life, then it's really inexcusable to be so uninformed, or especially to just go with existing beliefs rather than to look it up. But if a baggage handler at the airport thinks the GTA has a population of 2 million or 20 million, I think it's really not the end of the world, nor particularly surprising.
If I may be a bit selfish...

One of the things I like about travelling is talking to locals about their city and country.

It's a bit of bummer to chat with people and they don't know anything at all about where they live - even the basics.

This won't make me popular but I find that overall Canadians aren't too good in this department, compared to a lot of other nationalities.

I often shudder at the thought of a foreign tourist asking a random Canadian a basic question about the country (I mean really basic - like why is the Queen on the money) and how many people would actually answer "I haven't got the faintest idea" or even "how the fuck should I know?"
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  #120  
Old Posted May 9, 2018, 9:15 PM
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He's not from BC he's from Ontario.
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