Most middle income areas are in the Midwest

[jtown,man]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

that quiz is a bit odd. there's no controlling for location, age, marital status, household size, etc.

i got "elite", but i very highly doubt that i would comfortably fit into elite british society. i'm a married middle-aged family man with a two full-time salary household, so we make a decent chunk of change. and before we had kids we were both somewhat thrifty, so we are able to have things like healthy 401K's, investment properties, college funds, other investments, but we live pretty middle class. i mean our lone car is a freaking mazda cx-5 (i will never own a luxury brand, cars are one of the stupidest things to waste money on). we bought a home that was well below the threshold we were pre-approved for (i have no desire to be house-poor). three of my best friends in the world are a plumber, a brewer, and a guy who works for the gas company. i also know doctors, and business execs, and other professional types too. my social world is fairly diverse. i'm just as happy in an inexpensive ethnic hole in the wall as i am in some hot trendy foodie paradise (actually the hole in the wall fits more with my soul because i'm very value-oriented). we plan to send our kids to public school (CPS, at that!). i greatly enjoy high quality scotch, but i can also enjoy a coors light session on a sweltering summer afternoon. i mean, i ride a freaking bicyle to work everyday. how many members of the british elite commute on a bicycle? in the rain? there's no way in hell that i would ever belong to a country club or other kind of high society social organization thing like that. just give me an occasional night out at a corner tavern with good friends.

and most damning of all, i routinely wear shorts in the city!!!


lower upper middle working class!

This is an important post. It shows how pitting people into exclusive categories is rather foolish. I share some of the meshings of different "classes" in my own life. In the Navy I usually never fitted in with the blue collar guys and their love for sports and rash humor. However, I now realize they have rubbed off on me and I am rather blunt and harsh in my humor and speech(lots of cussing). I could go on and on but my point is I really don't feel like I fit in anywhere. And thats fine. I am rich some days, I can put on a suit and go to a casino benefit in my city. I can go drink $1 PBR's at the college bar because im cheap. I might not be 100% comfortable at any of these places, but thats life while living with anxiety I suppose.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by 10023

This is a pretty good perspective from a survey the BBC did several years ago. Though I’m not sure there needs to be 7 categories: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21953364

And take the quiz just for fun:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22000973

As we’ve all (hopefully) agreed, income is part of the equation but it’s also about your education, who you socialize with and how you spend your free time, among other things.

For instance, if you’re a member of a labor union, then you’re not “middle class” no matter how much money you earn. If you were then you wouldn’t need collective bargaining to have influence and leverage in your employment.

The article in the next tab contrasting the UK (pre- and post-Thatcher) with the US class system is worth a read as well.

I got Elite, which I'm not surprised about if income + savings is weighted heavily. I live a fairly frugal lifestyle at home so I definitely don't feel "elite," but I have a level of financial freedom that many of my friends do not. From the descriptions, I think some hybrid of elite + new affluent would best fit me.

[Docere]

The responses are interesting: I have working class friends, I eat at Taco Bell, I don't own a luxury car, I'm frugal, I'm not a snob etc.

[Docere]

The British media has a "social grade" for political behavior and marketing, that goes something like this:

A: upper middle class
B: middle class
C1: lower middle class
C2: skilled manual workers
D: semi- and unskilled manual workers
E: pensioners, unemployed

In the US, they generally just use educational attainment - no college degree = working class

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Docere

The responses are interesting: I have working class friends, I eat at Taco Bell, I don't own a luxury car, I'm frugal, I'm not a snob etc.

i think it's indicative of how much class fluidity there is in the US, and points to one of the big reasons why so many american's call themselves middle class, regardless of income or address or occupation. most people are just regular old people.

10023 would have us believe that people neatly fit into class X or class Y, and therefore only live in certain class X or class Y communties, only socialize with class X or class Y people, only patronize class X or class Y businesses, only participate in class X or class Y activities, etc.

the reality is A LOT more messy and complex than that.

[Docere]

I don't know why there's this idea of "frugality" is somehow antithetical to being rich. There are a lot of miserly "money for money's sake" capitalists, it's not all the Kardashians and conspicuous consumption.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Docere

I don't know why this idea of "frugality" is somehow antithetical to being rich.

i don't think it is.

as someone once said, "you don't get rich by writing checks".

[JManc]

Originally Posted by Docere

I don't know why this idea of "frugality" is somehow antithetical to being rich. There are a lot of miserly "money for money's sake" capitalists, it's not all the Kardashians and conspicuous consumption.

Key difference is that the wealthy don't have to be frugal and can live whatever lifestyle they choose regardless of spending habits. Being frugal in our case means more money for savings or to do other things.

[Docere]

Many working class people struggle to live within their means. It's easier to be "frugal" if you're well-off financially.

[Steely Dan]

^ it's easier to be "anything" if you're well-off financially.

[sopas ej]

Originally Posted by Docere

These "labels" have long existed.

Precisely. I think that's why these outdated terms should stop being used.

As our society and jobs/occupations continue to evolve in this supposedly post-industrial era that we've been living in and beyond,"blue collar"/"white collar"/"pink collar"/"working class"/"middle class" really will have no meaning. What used to be considered "middle class/white collar" jobs are now often lower income jobs, like office clerks, office assistants, etc. When you now have linemen making 70+K/year, and non-union construction superintendents making 6 figures a year, those terms have blurred, in my opinion. I wouldn't call the latter 2 "blue collar/working class" if they're able to afford a large house on an acre in a neighborhood full of the same kind of properties in southern California; the notion that they are "blue collar/working class" just because they don't work in an office is completely outdated to me. And to assume that these people wouldn't be into the "finer things" in life like a person in their income bracket would be who happens to have a degree or two, is totally an outdated stereotype as well.

Originally Posted by Docere

You make it sound like they were invented by some sociology adjunct who is bitter about the blue collar worker who makes more than he does.

Or the masters degree holder who is bitter that he makes the same 80K/year that the plumber makes...

Again, no, I'm aware that these labels have long existed.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by sopas ej

Precisely. I think that's why these outdated terms should stop being used.

As our society and jobs/occupations continue to evolve in this supposedly post-industrial era that we've been living in and beyond,"blue collar"/"white collar"/"pink collar"/"working class"/"middle class" really will have no meaning. What used to be considered "middle class/white collar" jobs are now often lower income jobs, like office clerks, office assistants, etc. When you now have linemen making 70+K/year, and non-union construction superintendents making 6 figures a year, those terms have blurred, in my opinion. I wouldn't call the latter 2 "blue collar/working class" if they're able to afford a large house on an acre in a neighborhood full of the same kind of properties in southern California; the notion that they are "blue collar/working class" just because they don't work in an office is completely outdated to me. And to assume that these people wouldn't be into the "finer things" in life like a person in their income bracket would be who happens to have a degree or two, is totally an outdated stereotype as well.



Or the masters degree holder who is bitter that he makes the same 80K/year that the plumber makes...

Again, no, I'm aware that these labels have long existed.

Actually the heyday of "blue collar affluence" was in the postwar years - when unions were stronger. The gap between college grads and non-college grads has actually grown in the past few decades. However at the same time college degrees are more common than ever, so it's not as an "elite" a credential as it used to be.

In other words, the "levelling off" of status distinctions that occurred in the decades after WWII has in fact reversed.

[Docere]

I agree though about the "proletarianization" of white collar work. "Blue collar" and "working class" are not synonymous.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by sopas ej

Precisely. I think that's why these outdated terms should stop being used.

As our society and jobs/occupations continue to evolve in this supposedly post-industrial era that we've been living in and beyond,"blue collar"/"white collar"/"pink collar"/"working class"/"middle class" really will have no meaning. What used to be considered "middle class/white collar" jobs are now often lower income jobs, like office clerks, office assistants, etc. When you now have linemen making 70+K/year, and non-union construction superintendents making 6 figures a year, those terms have blurred, in my opinion. I wouldn't call the latter 2 "blue collar/working class" if they're able to afford a large house on an acre in a neighborhood full of the same kind of properties in southern California; the notion that they are "blue collar/working class" just because they don't work in an office is completely outdated to me. And to assume that these people wouldn't be into the "finer things" in life like a person in their income bracket would be who happens to have a degree or two, is totally an outdated stereotype as well.



Or the masters degree holder who is bitter that he makes the same 80K/year that the plumber makes...

Again, no, I'm aware that these labels have long existed.

i've been (variously) the assistant "superintendent" or the foreman (construction manager in the trailer not the head operator, etc) on jobs with pipefitters in illinois making 6 figures...in fact i have overseen millionaire pipefitters in illinois, that were retirement age that lived in bungalows they grew up in. that will fuck you up coming out of school with debt from two degrees and credit cards, in fact i still try not to think about it. you basically have to have a daddy pipefitter to get in most locals but i've really questioned my choices over the years.

[Centropolis]

at the same time, i've been horrified by what some "white collar" people are making in cubicle farms.

[Docere]

"Lower middle class" is trickier to define. Traditionally it's meant white collar occupations (sales, clerical), technicians, shopkeepers etc.

[10023]

Originally Posted by Docere

I don't know why there's this idea of "frugality" is somehow antithetical to being rich. There are a lot of miserly "money for money's sake" capitalists, it's not all the Kardashians and conspicuous consumption.

Truly wealthy people are often frugal, aside from whatever their passion is (art collecting, etc).

[10023]

Originally Posted by Docere

"Lower middle class" is trickier to define. Traditionally it's meant white collar occupations (sales, clerical), technicians, shopkeepers etc.

Yeah it’s generally poorly paid white collar. Shopkeepers only fit if they’re a paid manager (as most today are). Historically the shopkeeper was the owner and considered solidly middle class. That was possibly the most middle class occupation, in terms of the comfortable, soft and boring middle class stereotype (think of Hitler’s “nation of shopkeepers” slander towards Britain).

[10023]

Originally Posted by JManc

But we aren't elite. But any stretch of the imagination.

No one thinks of themselves as elite, or upper middle class (which is a more traditional and better name). I thought this was funny:

"Even proper old school toffs reluctantly grumble, 'Well, I'm not sure, am I really upper-class?' Yes, you're a duke, of course you are," says Wallop. "It's almost impossible to label yourself without fear of being judged."

But yeah, if that’s how they’re defining it then there needs to be at least one gradation above it for the truly wealthy, just like there needs to be one below working class. People with $100+ million in assets on the one side, and people who are at any time homeless on the other.

[Sun Belt]

Originally Posted by 10023

Truly wealthy people are often frugal, aside from whatever their passion is (art collecting, etc).

They might appear frugal, because they don't think about money in the same way that the average person does. Their passion is to make more money. Money is an opportunity to invest and receive a return on that investment and buying the latest greatest superficial thing just isn't high on their list.

I would say that really wealthy people are not frugal because they've invested [and risked] 90-99% of their money and live off the remaining 1-10%. All their money is tied up in a variety of investments. Think of all the successful and unsuccessful businesses that were funded by really wealthy investors.