Florida's newest commuter rail Sunrail gets state Senate approval

[BTinSF]

That route map made me laugh. I guess they are using the same tracks as AMTRAK from Deland through Winter Park etc (at least AMTRAK has stops in those places on its "Silver Service" and formerly on the Sunset Limited).

But as somebody who used to get off there when going to Daytona, I can tell you the Deland station is going to need some serious upgrading. It's a little wooden building in the middle of nowhere. I used to enjoy standing by the tracks waiting for a train (miniscule waiting room and platform) and listening to alligators grunting off in a swamp somewhere. There's not an adequate parking lot for a commuter facility nor any connecting public transportation--that's why when I no longer had anybody who could pick me up there I had to start getting off the train in Jacksonville.

I've actually got to wonder why they don't consider extending the line all the way to Daytona. Daytonans have to go to Orlando for lots of reasons and most hate the I-4 traffic. I imagine the reason might be there is no existing track or right of way to use.

[llamaorama]

there is no existing track, I just checked. The CSX railroad through there doesn't connect to the FEC which goes to Miami until they merge in Jacksonville.

And in DeLand I noticed there's a short branch line into the center of town, I wonder if that could be used to bring trains into town to a better station with a bus stop and parking garage attached.

[Jasonhouse]

^That's simply too much to ask... These are Floridians making these decisions. Think of the leaders in the movie Idiocracy, and be grateful that anything is being done at all.

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by Jasonhouse

Yes, for the most part Tri-Rail is saved.

People in Tampa are pissed that there's nothing for the 2nd biggest metro, unless the feds happen to give us money for the HSR.

The way I see it, this is the first indication of actual leadership in state government that I can remember in years. For our state, this is definitely NOT politics as usual.

Our leaders didn't do what was easiest for their political careers today, they actually did their job for once and did what's best for the state's residents tomorrow. This is no PR stunt. This is no gimmick. This is what leadership looks like. Real solutions to problems ignored by lesser leaders of the past. Today's vote was about people putting aside personal ideology and doing what's right for the public at large. Hell, developing mass transit options isn't merely a 'good thing', it's an absolute necessity if the residents of this state hope to maintain a 1st world standard of living for years to come.

Take a deep sigh of relief Florida, your future just got a little brighter.

Having a lot of water in a metropolitan area does not help, since that increases costs substantially by having to build large bridges.

[electricron]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

No fancy paint job can save these graceless beasts.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder....

I too like the non-FRA compliant trains. But whether they are the best choice or not depends upon train headways (frequency) and ridership.

Let's look at two different examples for comparison purposes.

Bombardier Bi-Level capacity per car is 136 to 162 (seated); 276 including standees. A single diesel locomotove can pull/push 10 cars, has a capacity of at least 1,360 seated, 2760 including standees.

Stadler GTW 2/6 capacity per car is 108(seated); 200 including standees. They can operated in up to 3 multiple units. A single GTW train has a capacity of 324 (seated), 600 including standees.

Per individual train, the Bombardier can have almost 5 times as much capacity than a DMU train. BiLevel push/pull operations work best in high density areas with high ridership. The DMU trains work best in low density areas with medium to low ridership.

[BTinSF]

Originally Posted by electricron

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder....

I too like the non-FRA compliant trains. But whether they are the best choice or not depends upon train headways (frequency) and ridership.

Again, unless I'm mistaken this is the same right of way AMTRAK uses (AMTRAK makes the same stops--Deland, Winter Park, Orlando) so I'm fairly sure they'll have to use FRA-compliant equipment.

[electricron]

Originally Posted by BTinSF

Again, unless I'm mistaken this is the same right of way AMTRAK uses (AMTRAK makes the same stops--Deland, Winter Park, Orlando) so I'm fairly sure they'll have to use FRA-compliant equipment.

We were discussing the beauty of the trains, not the FRA regulations.

Of course you're correct, FRA compliant trains will be required on the Sunrail corridor, or some sort of temporal separation setup with CSX and Amtrak, as the regulations stand today.
But there is a FRA committee looking into forming an Alternate FRA compliant regulations, where European and Asian non-compliant trains with crash energy management (CEM) technology will be certified to operate in a mixed environment on corridors with positive train controls in place. Rumors suggest the Alternate FRA compliant regulations may be in place as early as Spring 2010. If these rumors are true, Stadler GTWs could run on the Sunrail corridor if Sunrail enhanced the corridors signaling.

I already replied that I think Sunrail has chosen Bombardier cars and cabs as their preferred choice of rolling equipment, so this other possibility isn't likely to occur in Central Florida. Never-the-less, I believe this Alternate FRA compliant vehicle regulation change is going to happen in the very near future. It'll have to occur for real HSR projects to advance. Amtrak has already proved with the Acelas that FRA-ing TGV trains doesn't work as well as the FRA and Amtrak hoped.

[Jasonhouse]

^I heard something about regs being likely to be addressed during the next session of Congress when they do the 5yr transportation bill that they put off this year.

[llamaorama]

Wonder if messing with an exception for non-compliant DMUs will restart the debate over CSX's lack of liability? Also I read on a railfan site the former colorado railcar double-deckers performed poorly on Tri-Rail.

I dunno, to be honest I don't see how Orlando could support a commuter rail so I was never hugely excited about this project. Visiting there a couple of times (to go to Disney World) it looks like a mostly decentralized suburban city. I'm just sort of pleased that Tri-Rail is getting the funding it needs to stay in operation. That was the real travesty, almost letting it die because of politics as usual.

^That's simply too much to ask... These are Floridians making these decisions. Think of the leaders in the movie Idiocracy, and be grateful that anything is being done at all.

Lol

[Jasonhouse]

^When were you last in Orlando? The city made some significant changes to the way it builds itself a few years ago (zoning changes, focus on transit, etc), and we're just now starting to see the effects of that.(I can name off several parts of town that are already all but unrecognizable, compared to what they looked like 5 years ago) Several Sunrail stations will hit Orlando's existing urban areas, and several more will be surrounded by TOD projects as the market allows.

[electricron]

Commuter/regional rail is much cheaper to build and operate and more appropriate in low density cities like Orlando than light or heavy rail. This is only one corridor, which could lead to more rail corridors being built. The new corridors could be built as commuter rail, light rail, or streetcars in the future.

This is a relatively long rail corridor, which is more appropriate as commuter rail. Shorter corridors are more appropriate for light rail and even shorter corridors are more appropriate for streetcars. Since CSX is willing to sell the corridor, although still providing local freight services to its customers, FRA compliant commuter rail is also the cheaper and possibly the best solution. Depending upon the conditions of the rails, it could be the cheapest solution.

[Prahaboheme]

Originally Posted by llamaorama

I dunno, to be honest I don't see how Orlando could support a commuter rail so I was never hugely excited about this project. Visiting there a couple of times (to go to Disney World) it looks like a mostly decentralized suburban city. I'm just sort of pleased that Tri-Rail is getting the funding it needs to stay in operation. That was the real travesty, almost letting it die because of politics as usual.

The tourism district including Disney World is the South Orange area, which is certainly sprawling and rather decentralized. That said, the city of Orlando and areas North / South of downtown have grown increasingly urban over the past 10 years and they are making great strides to make it a walkable, urban metro area. There has been a lot of urbanism development as infill (a former navy yard basically in the city center was transformed into a beautiful, dense neighborhood of townhomes and parks -- called Baldwin Park); South of Downtown (dubbed SODO) has really taken off with urban box store development and redevelopment of strip malls into walkable spaces; existing medical centers are redeveloping to build up along the commuter train line. Even sleepy downtown Kissimmee has began to revitalize it's downtown over the last few years to pretty good success. There is a lot of work to do, and some areas that will never become urban in Orlando, but this is a fantastic turn of events for what has always been considered one of the most sprawling metros in the country.

[BTinSF]

Originally Posted by llamaorama

to be honest I don't see how Orlando could support a commuter rail so I was never hugely excited about this project. Visiting there a couple of times (to go to Disney World) it looks like a mostly decentralized suburban city.

Lol

LOL indeed. When I lived in Orlando-adjacent Winter Park, I never went near Disney and most people of my acquaintance also avoided it like the plague. It's actually closer to Kissimmee anyway.

Like most tourists spots, you have the Orlando of residents and you have the Orlando of tourists and they aren't the same. This rail system might actually bring more tourists downtown but I doubt it. However the non-Disney Orlando shares honors with Jacksonville and Tallahassee as being Florida (maybe present-day Tampa too--I can't say) cities full of younger people and families living lives that have nothing to do with tourism. Some of them may work at Disney, but most of them don't. No one that I know of in my Winter Park neighborhood did. These people are mostly sick of Central Florida's horrible traffic. People on the end of the I-4 corridor in Daytona won't even go to Orlando if they can help it because of the traffic. I haven't seen the studies on this project, but I'd be shocked if the projected usage wasn't pretty good.

[Jasonhouse]

I bet its ridership will exceed expectations considerably...

[llamaorama]

I'm fully aware that the city of Orlando has an older section with a high-rise downtown and intown neighborhoods. I just question if the center is really big enough to need something like this. A light rail would be more groundbreaking. But rail is cool, whatever.

[Rail>Auto]

Originally Posted by Jasonhouse

Yes, for the most part Tri-Rail is saved.

People in Tampa are pissed that there's nothing for the 2nd biggest metro, unless the feds happen to give us money for the HSR.

The way I see it, this is the first indication of actual leadership in state government that I can remember in years. For our state, this is definitely NOT politics as usual.

Our leaders didn't do what was easiest for their political careers today, they actually did their job for once and did what's best for the state's residents tomorrow. This is no PR stunt. This is no gimmick. This is what leadership looks like. Real solutions to problems ignored by lesser leaders of the past. Today's vote was about people putting aside personal ideology and doing what's right for the public at large. Hell, developing mass transit options isn't merely a 'good thing', it's an absolute necessity if the residents of this state hope to maintain a 1st world standard of living for years to come.

Take a deep sigh of relief Florida, your future just got a little brighter.

Couldn't have said it any better!

[Rail>Auto]

Originally Posted by DallasTexan

Excellent. There is a stop a mile from my condo *and* my office. I think I'll start putting the keys to the car away in a few years.

Good to hear! I'm excited with the amount of success the rail industry has had in the past few months.

[Prahaboheme]

Originally Posted by llamaorama

I'm fully aware that the city of Orlando has an older section with a high-rise downtown and intown neighborhoods. I just question if the center is really big enough to need something like this. A light rail would be more groundbreaking. But rail is cool, whatever.

There is an insurmountable need for this in Orlando; that is not even a question. If you don't believe me, read through the feasibility study at sunrail.com.

There is also a light rail proposal in place that would extend East-West from the tourist district to the airport, and intersecting with the commuter train. It would have more frequent stops than the commuter train (as it should) and that is what makes most sense for the East-West axis.

I believe the next step should be to bring modern streetcars to downtown Orlando and adjacent neighborhoods.

[BTinSF]

Originally Posted by Prahaboheme

I believe the next step should be to bring modern streetcars to downtown Orlando and adjacent neighborhoods.

I believe the next step should be to extend some kind of rail or other alternative transportation the length of the I-4 corridor: Atlantic to the Gulf. Like I said, there are so many reasons that Daytonans might have for visiting Orlando (and its satellites like Longwood-Altamonte) if they didn't have to fight a traffic nightmare to get there. And I presume Orlandoans might like to go to the beach occasionally. Tampa, of course, has its own attractions, cultural and otherwise, for both.

[Lakelander]

This is already in the works. Sunrail, Tampa/Orlando HSR, Orlando/Miami HSR and the Amtrak/FEC corridor project will achieve this. Imo, all of Florida's major cities need to be working on plans to connect local transit systems with the intercity lines that will be all up and running ten years from now.