Surrey Langley Skytrain - Expo Line Extension | Proposed

[Vonny]

Originally Posted by racc

RRT to Langley is really stretching it (or even LRT from Surrey Central to Langley). Downtown to Langley is really starting to be a long haul for a metro system. Regional rail with stops every 5 or 10 km would be a much better way to get from downtown to Langley. Then have streetcar or shorter LRT lines to serve locations close by.

I tend to agree with these views, which reflect the ones expressed in this post.

The backbone of a regional rail as expressed by racc could follow the thick arrows in this map (and skytrain is probably not the right choice for that)


once the precise alignment is selected, other piece of the system including in Surrey become self-obvious...

Originally Posted by racc

This is really starting to look like another regional plan where the province might have to jump in and save us from ourselves yet again.

agree too

[nickinacan]

Originally Posted by logan5

Canada line replaced more than one bus route. A total of those bus routes would be a better comparison to the daily ridership of the Canada Line...

Very true. Thank you lack of proper caffeine intake yesterday!

[Chikinlittle]

Originally Posted by nname

Create a Y between Gateway and Surrey Central...

I'd actually perfer going down from Guildford to Fleetwood and then continue to Langley... Sure it is a longer route and higher cost, but it would be cheaper than 2 separate routes, and serve more people than a line running through forest, right?

It would actually work out quite well by extending the existing Expo line across 100 Ave to 152nd Street (at the south end of Guildford Town Centre), from which it could then turn south to follow 152 to Fraser Hwy and head towards Langley from there. There is even a small hydro ROW that could be used for the section to bring the line up to 100 Ave from the existing King George Station. There would be relatively little backtracking by using this alignment.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by Chikinlittle

It would actually work out quite well by extending the existing Expo line across 100 Ave to 152nd Street (at the south end of Guildford Town Centre), from which it could then turn south to follow 152 to Fraser Hwy and head towards Langley from there. There is even a small hydro ROW that could be used for the section to bring the line up to 100 Ave from the existing King George Station. There would be relatively little backtracking by using this alignment.

The plan that was on the table used that Hydro ROW to bring the tail up to 104th and then to Guildford.

I think it depends on your ultimate goal and where you want to concentrate growth. I think you will have better luck rezoning 104th than 100th for TOD, but I'm not sure as I've not been living in Surrey for quite some time now.

[officedweller]

Here's a diagram I did back in January 2008 (!!!) (also on Page 6 of this thread) from the $14B for Transit thread:

Originally Posted by officedweller

If it is going down 104th Ave., then it makes sense to me to install a wye at 104th rather than looping back up from King George Station. That would leave the tail track at King George Station available to head south down King George Highway. That would be feasible (it was done for the M-Line) and the interruption (using longer trains running on single track while the other is reconstructed) would only affect Surrey Central and King George Stations.

In order to serve Surrey Central Station area, there would have to be a station on the 104th line at the wye (i.e. at King George HIghway) or, as Cornholio mentioned, have the wye south of Surrey Central Station (which would make for curvey detour on the line).

As for whether Skytrain is appropriate for Langley - if Surrey City Centre is to be the next downtown in the regional - as big as Vancouver - then it makes sense to view the Expo line as feeding Surrey City Centre, not just feeding Downtown Vancouver. I do agree it would be a long ride from Langley to downtown Vancouver.

Here's a good Global Air Pic of the area showing the hydro ROW and the SUrrey Central Station area and 104th Ave.



And here are my suggested allignments - I prefer the red line with a station at King George Highway. If Surrey orients its transit (bus) plaza between the two stations, it would work OK and transfers from Guildford to King George could transfer at Gateway Station. I suppose there could be an issue though with bus passengers having a choice of two nearby stations (esp. if one branch has more service than the other). The blue routing would focus a lot of passenger traffic on Surrey Central Station (possibly overloading it in the long term?), plus the red routing allows more stations in a more central location in Surrey's downtown than the blue line (which is further to the south closer to King George Station).
As for the overpass, Skytrain can make sharper turns than the Canada Line trains, so the structure wouldn't have to be as massive as at Bridgeport Station - think Columbia Station-Skybridge switches.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by Vonny

I tend to agree with these views, which reflect the ones expressed in this post.

The backbone of a regional rail as expressed by racc could follow the thick arrows in this map (and skytrain is probably not the right choice for that)


once the precise alignment is selected, other piece of the system including in Surrey become self-obvious...



agree too

Well, why not Skytrain? The westernmost thickest line, between Downtown Vancouver and Surrey IS Skytrain, so if the next most important and busy link (the next thickest line) is Langley to Surrey, then why not extend Skytrain? The thinner, less traveled lines are the ones that should be light rail or commuter rail.


WRT Guildford, I honestly don't think it is THAT important in the grand scheme of things. The biggest problem for transit to Guildford is that people live PAST it. The buses to and from Guildford are busy because most of them are buses that also travel through Fleetwood and beyond (and some from Langley). Those are insanely long bus routes, so of course buses get full. It's not the crush of people getting on at Guildford, it the mass of people already on the bus by the time it's on 152 or 104 that cause problems.

Skytrain down Fraser would eliminate so many of the long bus rides. The long haul 500 buses could be replaced with a multitude of short haul lines and community shuttles.

If there isn't enough money to also have LRT/BRT to Guildford, then at least they have better options than they do now. It would only be a short bus ride South to the closest Skytrain Staion (around 5 minutes for most Guildford Residents), or a much less stressful bus ride down 104 to Central City.

It might not be the best sollution of Guildford residents, but Skytrain down Fraser does more for a larger number of people, thus has higher utility over all.

(Besides, we are in the process of building a billion dollar bridge that people in Guildford have easy, easy access to. People deeper in the city where you have to drive through a hundred lights to get anywhere need some love).

[Whalleyboy]

I'm still sticking with my original thought that skytrain should extend out to newton to about 72 ave first. From there it still possible to extend out to follow the old interurban route to Langley via cloverdale. It would may be a bit longer then right along fraser(about 5km) but more connections and more people would be hit then the other route along fraser.
then a LRT could connected guildford and fleetwood with central

[TransitFreak]

Looking at OD's repost of the aerial photo, I really think that the existing Expo line as is has no chance of going down 104th. Going down Fraser Highway would be the equivalent of the diagonal cross cut of the Expo line in Vancouver, and this would really strengthen the grid network of buses (I made this comment in the survey).

Conceivably, you can run a B-Line every 5-10 minutes from Surrey Central via Guildford down 152nd to service a station at Fraser Hwy/152nd intersection. You could have 2 B-Line routes - one N-S along King George Surrey Central White Rock, and another circle B-Line starting at Surrey Central, head East 104th to Guildford, south 152nd, west 88th, north KG back to Surrey Central.

[memememe76]

WRT Guildford, I honestly don't think it is THAT important in the grand scheme of things. The biggest problem for transit to Guildford is that people live PAST it. The buses to and from Guildford are busy because most of them are buses that also travel through Fleetwood and beyond (and some from Langley). Those are insanely long bus routes, so of course buses get full. It's not the crush of people getting on at Guildford, it the mass of people already on the bus by the time it's on 152 or 104 that cause problems.

You obviously have not taken the 320 from Surrey Central. The line ups are insane and the buses are full. But by the time I exit it at the T&T. finding a seat is easy.

In terms of density, which other parts of Surrey has more density than Guildford?

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by memememe76

You obviously have not taken the 320 from Surrey Central. The line ups are insane and the buses are full. But by the time I exit it at the T&T. finding a seat is easy.

Right, and if the bus terminated at 152 and Fraser, it would be completely empty at T&T. I'm not saying Guildford isn't busy, but there are a lot of buses that have most of their route east of Guildford that serve a lot of customers that "ride through" Guildford. If that wasn't the case, then buses would be full, but not packed and resulting in pass ups.

Let me ask you this, as someone that lives around 100 Ave. Would you rather:
a) Take the bus to an LRT station on 104 Ave (which will result in a transfer to Skytrain)
b)Take a bus South to 152 and Fraser and get on Skytrain directly?

And in reality those are the most likely choices. I really doubt that Skytrain will ever run down 104 Ave for the reasons mentioned by others. The switch systems proposed by others needlessly complicate Skytrains rather elegant design. So you can either have a 4 minute ride to 104 and 152, then an LRT ride and another transfer, or you can have a

Originally Posted by memememe76

In terms of density, which other parts of Surrey has more density than Guildford?

Guildford, City Center, Gateway, Newton, Surdel/Kennedy, Strawberry Hill, East Panorama, Semiahmoo, Morgan/Rosemary Heights, Fleetwood, West Colverdale, Cloverdale, East Clayton, Willowbrook, and Langley city are all areas of high density townhomes, apartments and/or condos, not to mention that most of the new SFH homes in those areas have multiple suites and smaller lots than older homes.

And you know what the problem is? Guildford is the only one on it's own corridor. Building to Guildford is a sacrifice to multiple other corridors.

Is it worth it? It might be one of the cheaper corridors, but at the same time, the Rapid Transit would do absolutely nothing for every other person in Surrey. At least if they even just extended Skytrain to 160 St, it would shave more time off more people's travel, resulting in a greater savings for Translink and savings millions of hours of travel time. Or at least Building to Newton would server everyone in SW Surrey and South Surrey White Rock. Building to Guildford just helps Guildford Residents. And in my book, doing something to help a lot of people even a little bit is better than helping just a few people a lot.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by Whalleyboy

I'm still sticking with my original thought that skytrain should extend out to newton to about 72 ave first. From there it still possible to extend out to follow the old interurban route to Langley via cloverdale. It would may be a bit longer then right along fraser(about 5km) but more connections and more people would be hit then the other route along fraser.
then a LRT could connected guildford and fleetwood with central

I disagree. While there are a lot of people in downtown Cloverdale, it does not compare at all to what has happened and is happening in Clayton. The interurban is sooooooo farrrrrr awwwwaaaaaay from Clayton that it may as well not exist for them. You would have to take a bus 15 minutes south first, just to get to Skytrain; it would be faster to take current buses into City Center directly than making that trip. By going down Fraser you cut the length of feeder routes in half, thus increasing frequency and encouraging riders.

And then there is zero chance of growth to the South of Skytrain stations (ALR land) so the catchment area of any station is now half of what it could be if located on the Fraser Highway.

Plus the cost per km would be about the same (there is very little space where it could be at grade because it risks cutting farm land apart plus it could be prone to flooding). So why not build the shorter line that passes closer to the most people?

If you want to use the interurban it would have to be commuter style rail. The capital cost would be a fraction of Skytrain (or LRT) and much easier to service the debt with a lower number of riders.

[Whalleyboy]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

I disagree. While there are a lot of people in downtown Cloverdale, it does not compare at all to what has happened and is happening in Clayton. The interurban is sooooooo farrrrrr awwwwaaaaaay from Clayton that it may as well not exist for them. You would have to take a bus 15 minutes south first, just to get to Skytrain; it would be faster to take current buses into City Center directly than making that trip. By going down Fraser you cut the length of feeder routes in half, thus increasing frequency and encouraging riders.

And then there is zero chance of growth to the South of Skytrain stations (ALR land) so the catchment area of any station is now half of what it could be if located on the Fraser Highway.

Plus the cost per km would be about the same (there is very little space where it could be at grade because it risks cutting farm land apart plus it could be prone to flooding). So why not build the shorter line that passes closer to the most people?

If you want to use the interurban it would have to be commuter style rail. The capital cost would be a fraction of Skytrain (or LRT) and much easier to service the debt with a lower number of riders.

I'm not saying it has to follow the whole interurban lets say ti just follow to about 64 ave goes down 64 ave to fraser the fraser to langley. By cutting along 64 your actually using the smallest ALR split around. There is a huge gap of ALR along fraser compared to 64 ave. Plus newton population easily out numbers both guildford and fleetwood combined. Newton is and is gonna be the most populated community of surrey for a long time and ignoring it for a slightly faster route is insane in my mind. Plus i'm not even counting how many people in south surrey it would help. Plus add the fact Surrey doesnt have big plans to really build up fleetwood from what it is now.

here is a map to compare what i think and a fraser hwy route.
http://maps.google.ca/maps/ms?msid=2...54331,0.104628

[geoff's two cents]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

And you know what the problem is? Guildford is the only one on it's own corridor. Building to Guildford is a sacrifice to multiple other corridors.

I don't think either of these statements are necessarily true. We're getting into transit-fantasy territory here, but I've always envisioned a Guildford-Newton line independent of the Expo line that:

1) starts as B-line service to gauge ridership and upgrades (years down the road) to either LRT or Skytrain.

2) is expandable (and fork-able) at both ends, years down the road:

a) at the Guildford end
i) to Fraser heights; and/or
ii) south on 152nd to at least Fraser Hwy.

b) at the Newton end
i) to Cloverdale via heritage rail ROW; or
ii) to Kwantlen and Scottsdale via 72nd; or
iii) to points further south, perhaps all the way to South Surrey

Part of the reason I like the idea of a separate line is that it reiterates Surrey Central's status as one of the most important hubs in metro Vancouver's transit network.

I've bolded the most important part Regardless of what happens here, I'm fully in favor of extending the Expo line to at least Fleetwood in the medium term, and Langley in the longer term.

Doing anything new or innovative with Guildford-Whalley transit will probably depend on some sort of medium-term plan for mixed-use TOD in Guildford, however, of which I've yet to see any.

[tybuilding]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

The plan that was on the table used that Hydro ROW to bring the tail up to 104th and then to Guildford.

I think it depends on your ultimate goal and where you want to concentrate growth. I think you will have better luck rezoning 104th than 100th for TOD, but I'm not sure as I've not been living in Surrey for quite some time now.

That is true, don't forget that 8 blocks of 100 Ave is essentially forest. The 4 blocks east of 148 st to 152st is fairly developed already with mostly apartments/condos and some townhomes (my old condo included). 104 Ave is hugely suitable for TOD. We already have new development at 144 ST, there is that big empty commercial building at 142st, car dealership at 144-145A st, the compact superstore at 146st (parking under the store). There is new high density being built at 144st NW side commercial and a 6 story condo building was just built. 148 St has high rise condos already but there are lots of old apartments to the north of 104 st in that area and a few empty lots.

[Canadian Mind]

Here's a pair of ideas I have that could be grown into between now and 2030.

Option 1 is to simply punch the Skytrain down Fraser highway through Fleetwood, turn south into Cloverdale, and east into Langley. In order to provide rail service for Surrey, have a LRT Loop from Surrey Central/King George - Gilford - Fleetwood - Newton - SC/KG. Design it in such a way so that in the future branches can be integrated without handicapping capacity of the main loop. Transfer stations would be in Surrey Central/King George and in Fleetwood.

Option 2 would have the Expo Line split, either right before or right after Gateway. The one branch would be the existing line to King George, and would continue south to Newton, then east to Fleetwood, Cloverdale, and finally Langley. This would be the south branch. The north branch would head east from Gateway to Guilford, then down to Fleetwood where it would re-integrate with the South Line. Where the line splits and reconnects it would be a full intersection, so trains can turn either way. This would allow for a full blown Surrey Loop, increasing connectivity within Surrey, as well as allow Langley residents full and quick access to either north or south Surrey, aswell as the remainder of the network.

I perfer option 1. The main Line, Expo, is shorter, thus allowing for a quicker access to the rest of the network. Plus an LRT would be more suited to Surrey's level and type of development. It would also be easier to expand and develop with Surrey's development. Inter-access and connectivity for Surrey residents would still be greatly improved. For residents of Langley, it's a matter of one transfer at Fleetwood or King George/Surrey Central to get onto the LRT network to get to where they need to go. I would hope that using LRT as a more "local" rail transit that feeds into Expo would be replicated across the network.

While I advocate completion of Broadway to UBC, expanding Evergreen to Maple Ridge, Expo to Langley, and a Vancouver/Burnaby loop connecting DT, the Hastings corridor, BCIT, possibly SFU, Metrotown, and south & west Vancouver, beyond those lines I don't see the skytrain network needing expansion.

[theQ]

I saw an empty articulated bus driving up and down King George Boulevard yesterday .. presumably getting ready for the new 399 line that was promised to start early 2012. My guess is that it'll start shortly after the new translink gas tax increase takes effect on April 1st.

[GMasterAres]

I'd put money down on the reality that Sky Train will simply extend down Fraser Highway out to Langley Willowbrook. Anything to Guildford and/or Newton will come in the form of either B-line's from Translink or LRT from Surrey.

I do like fantasy though and dreaming but the realities of cost and the fact that Translink has a long-standing track record of trying to spend as little money as is humanly possible outside Vancouver/Burnaby tells me that any Sky Train solution will be as minimal as possible.

Though ironic that Sky Train is anything but minimal in cost compared to LRT and BRT. Still though it wouldn't surprise me and I think it just seems like they are aiming that direction. I think it is actually the best solution still given the fact Sky Train is a backbone network meant to get people cross-regionally to Downtown Vancouver, Metrotown, and eventually Downtown Surrey. LRT would fit better with how Surrey wants the city to grow especially out to Guildford and Newton.

Personally, I would love to be able to walk out my door and jump on sky train at KGB to Guildford. Would be great! But I have my doubts it will ever happen not unless people are willing to dip deep into their pockets.

[Zassk]

Wouldn't "minimal as possible" be building the shortest route to the largest nearest town centre - i.e. straight down KGB to Newton? A build along Fraser Hwy requires more than double the investment to reach any worthwhile end point.

For this reason, I expect an inexpensive announcement of an extension to Newton directly off of the King George endpoint, at a cost of $700 million or less, with switches pre-built for a future Fraser Hwy branch.

[nname]

Interestingly enough, the project that TransLink contributed the most lies outside of Vancouver and Burnaby... TransLink actually contributed more on this project than Expo, Millennium, Canada, and Evergreen Line conbined!

[SFUVancouver]

^ Golden Ears Bridge?

But that doesn't fit the narrative that Translink doesn't care about the folks South of the Fraser...