Calgary Transit: Fare Payment Systems

[Champion3]

Today I realized at the last minute that I did not have any more transit tickets. I walked to my nearest convenience store to purchase a book of tickets, only to learn that they were sold out.

We have remarked before about the ironic fact that the City is making it more convenient to pay for parking than it is to pay for transit. While I'm composing a letter to my alderman (councillor? ) to bitch about this, I pose this question to the forum:

What types of fare collection systems have you seen or heard about that would be useful in Calgary? Obviously Edmonton's ticket machines would be a step up, and I'm curious about the features of fancier machines, but I'm also wondering about other means like online or cellphone based fare payment.

EDIT: Just wanted to preemptively add a condition to my question in case it comes up: I'm thinking specifically about fare payment technology that would work harmoniously with the current honour/proof of payment system...

[Surferguy]

how about ticket machines on the train.... Works in Melbourne OZ

[The Chemist]

I think you could use RF technology (i.e. smart cards) to pay for tickets even with an honour based system. I love the smart cards used for the metro here in Shanghai because I never even have to take my wallet out of my bag when riding the metro - I just swipe my bag over the reader on the turnstile and it reads the card.

[Canadian74]

They need to upgrade their ancient fare-collecting systems on the buses to electronic ones first!

[Rise_of_the_West]

Implanted Microchips.

[feepa]

ETS has started using these:
http://www.edmonton.ca/portal/server...ng+Machine.htm

Fare Vending Machines make buying fare products quick and easy. These self-service machines sell a single fare, a return trip, a set of 10 tickets and a day pass.

These machines, built by Cubic Transportation Systems, are self serve outlets where customers can purchase a single fare, return trip, a set of 10 tickets, or a day pass. The machines accept coins and bills up to $20 and provide change on a purchase. They have replaced the fare and coin machines that were in the stations.

The Fare Vending Machines have the technology to offer future purchase options using credit, debit and smart cards.

[Arch26]

Originally Posted by feepa

ETS has started using these:
http://www.edmonton.ca/portal/server...ng+Machine.htm

I think those are the same machines that TransLink uses. I know it costs money to install and operate a debit/credit system, but how much does Calgary Transit lose to people who don't pay a fare at all because it's too inconvenient. There has definitely been the odd time when I have had NO CHOICE but to use the train without paying because I had no cash and there was no alternative.

EDIT: And it wouldn't kill them to give change either. A lot of people would rather risk riding for free than blowing an extra toonie on a stone-age fare box.

[entheosfog]

Originally Posted by Arch26

I think those are the same machines that TransLink uses. I know it costs money to install and operate a debit/credit system, but how much does Calgary Transit lose to people who don't pay a fare at all because it's too inconvenient. There has definitely been the odd time when I have had NO CHOICE but to use the train without paying because I had no cash and there was no alternative.

That is quite like what they use in Vancouver.
Being able to use debit or credit card is really handy because lots of times when you need to ride a bus, you may not always have exact change or any change/cash for that matter. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to expect these kind of machines with the LRT in this day and age. It's not like it's cutting edge technology. The current machines look right out of the 1980s.

Plus I echo what was said earlier about upgrading the fare boxes on the buses. Calgary's system seems ancient not to mention confusing as far as the transfer slips go. With Translink, the card you get when you pay or validate stamps the time it expires, and if it is expired, the machine rejects it, rather than the bus driver having to read the transfer slip. Of course, Vancouver's transit system gets complicated with the 3 different fare zones but Translink is looking at the Smartcard system.

[Champion3]

I used the Edmonton machines this past summer and I was quite pleased with the available ticket options and with the bills/change provisions. As somebody who likes to use plastic, however, I would still much prefer support for that.

If technologies like PayPass catch on, it would be great if vending machines supported them.

[noodlenoodle]

In Edmonton the lack of debit/credit reaaaally hits you the first time you realize all you're packing is bank-machine-fresh $20s and you either want one fare ($2.50), or a strip of tickets ($21). Either way you're getting back a pocketful of change, or figuring out some sort of reverse slot machine scheme wherein you attempt to reach a balance between bulk ticket purchases and their inherent savings, the money in your wallet and the money jangling in your pockets. It is a cunning art I have not yet mastered.

[Boris2k7]

I always push this example, but NYNY baby...

http://www.mta.info/metrocard/mcgtreng.htm

[Arch26]

Originally Posted by noodlenoodle

In Edmonton the lack of debit/credit reaaaally hits you the first time you realize all you're packing is bank-machine-fresh $20s and you either want one fare ($2.50), or a strip of tickets ($21). Either way you're getting back a pocketful of change, or figuring out some sort of reverse slot machine scheme wherein you attempt to reach a balance between bulk ticket purchases and their inherent savings, the money in your wallet and the money jangling in your pockets. It is a cunning art I have not yet mastered.

At least you get change... On Calgary Transit, a $20 bill is about as useful as scrap paper. Calgary's system is totally backward. I imagine Calgary Transit will eventually introduce a "change" feature... probably at around the same time other transit systems are introducing smartcards and cell phone payment options... A 20-year lag isn't so bad is it?

[Riise]

Originally Posted by The Chemist

I think you could use RF technology (i.e. smart cards) to pay for tickets even with an honour based system. I love the smart cards used for the metro here in Shanghai because I never even have to take my wallet out of my bag when riding the metro - I just swipe my bag over the reader on the turnstile and it reads the card.

I'm with Chemist, we need to go Smart. It would easily fit into our honour system and could be integrated into a closed-system if CT ever goes that way. I also believe that debit/credit would be useful, however, with a $2.25 fare and a ~$2.00 user charge for using debit/credit systems (eg. interact) is it really feasible? I'd also recommend that we look into Mobile ticketing, Transport for London is testing it out currently so it would be good to keep and eye on London.


Pay-by-mobile phone trial starts in London
Wed Nov 28, 2007 9:04am EST

LONDON, Nov 28 (Reuters Life!) - Shoppers in the British capital will be able to buy Underground tickets and newspapers with a wave of their mobile phone rather than cash during a trial starting on Wednesday.

Hundreds of people have been given special handsets fitted with a built-in credit card and Oyster card, the device used to pay for train and bus tickets in London.

When the phone is passed over a scanner in stations or shops, money is deducted from the mobile phone as payment, the trial's organisers said.

People can spend up to 10 pounds at a time at selected shops and cafes, including cafe chain Coffee Republic, alcohol retailer Threshers and book shop Books Etc.

Wireless transactions are common in some countries, such as Japan, where consumers already use mobiles to pay for everything from burgers to train tickets.

Organisers say that if the six-month London trial is a success the scheme could be extended to include bigger payments, more shops and concerts and plays.

Those taking part will receive 50 pounds ($103.2) worth of Oyster journeys, 60 pounds off their O2 phone bill and 200 pounds to spend with the in-built Barclaycard.

The companies behind the trial include Transport for London, mobile phone firm O2, Barclaycard, Visa Europe, and Nokia.

(Reporting by Peter Griffiths; Editing by Steve Addison)

http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssT...86756620071128

[shogged]

Originally Posted by Riise

I'm with Chemist, we need to go Smart. It would easily fit into our honour system and could be integrated into a closed-system if CT ever goes that way. I also believe that debit/credit would be useful, however, with a $2.25 fare and a ~$2.00 user charge for using debit/credit systems (eg. interact) is it really feasible? I'd also recommend that we look into Mobile ticketing, Transport for London is testing it out currently so it would be good to keep and eye on London.


Pay-by-mobile phone trial starts in London
Wed Nov 28, 2007 9:04am EST

LONDON, Nov 28 (Reuters Life!) - Shoppers in the British capital will be able to buy Underground tickets and newspapers with a wave of their mobile phone rather than cash during a trial starting on Wednesday.

Hundreds of people have been given special handsets fitted with a built-in credit card and Oyster card, the device used to pay for train and bus tickets in London.

When the phone is passed over a scanner in stations or shops, money is deducted from the mobile phone as payment, the trial's organisers said.

People can spend up to 10 pounds at a time at selected shops and cafes, including cafe chain Coffee Republic, alcohol retailer Threshers and book shop Books Etc.

Wireless transactions are common in some countries, such as Japan, where consumers already use mobiles to pay for everything from burgers to train tickets.

Organisers say that if the six-month London trial is a success the scheme could be extended to include bigger payments, more shops and concerts and plays.

Those taking part will receive 50 pounds ($103.2) worth of Oyster journeys, 60 pounds off their O2 phone bill and 200 pounds to spend with the in-built Barclaycard.

The companies behind the trial include Transport for London, mobile phone firm O2, Barclaycard, Visa Europe, and Nokia.

(Reporting by Peter Griffiths; Editing by Steve Addison)

http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssT...86756620071128

didn't calgary transit try something like this recently?

[freeweed]

Sometimes I feel my age, but...

I've just always been in the habit of making sure I always have a spare bus fare in coins on me. But I've been riding transit since long before Interac was an option. Needless to say I welcomed the loonie and toonie with open arms as it made it much easier to carry an "emergency" fare in my wallet.

Much like how to this day, I still never leave the house without a quarter for the payphone. Of course these days I believe payphones cost more than that...

Anyway, if CT goes plastic, they sure as hell better work out a system that's faster than the average credit/debit transaction in a store. There's nothing more frustrating than missing a train because someone takes 2-3 minutes to figure out what buttons to press. Thankfully I use transit enough that a monthly pass is pretty much always on me.

[Champion3]

There's a lot of hype recently about MasterCard PayPass (their new RFID system). It's supposed to reduce transaction time considerably. It will be interesting to see the applications of this.

[Distill3d]

Originally Posted by shogged

didn't calgary transit try something like this recently?

as did a few places in Germany as well. i welcome this idea, however, not everyone has a mobile phone, and i think personally my phone bill is expensive enough as is. i highly doubt Rogers, Telus, or Bell would carry a "transit plan" that included your monthly bus pass...

[frinkprof]

While Calgary's LRT system has been built on a 'no frills' policy, I just don't think that this sort of thing is a frill anymore. We are moving more and more toward a cashless society. I seriously have to consciously think and go out of my way to make sure I have cash on me if I'm going to need it.

Really, how much would it cost to outfit all the LRT stations to at least take debit or credit cards if not a smart card system? The machines wouldn't have to be emptied out nearly as often either.

[Distill3d]

this may sound like a moronic question, but are there any transit or LRT systems anywhere in the world that are completely free for the users?

[mersar]

The Town of Milton in Ontario was experimenting with a free transit system a while back to try to lure people from using their vehicles. And I know that another city (Windsor?) down east also tried doing a similar thing years back on days that the smog levels were critical.