2014 Quebec General Election + General Separatism Discussion

[Martin Mtl]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Most francophone Montrealers also support the PQ BTW.

The only place in Quebec where a large proportion of francophones (usually a majority) have not historically supported the PQ (there are occasionally blips in electoral history here and there though) is the Outaouais.

And Quebec city. They voted for the CAQ at the last election, except for Agnès Maltais' riding.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Most francophone Montrealers also support the PQ BTW.

this must, on some level, be a quebecer-first, montrealer-second decision. i know it is the stereotypically anglo position, and contains a bit of what you have referred to as "devil's bargain"-type reasoning, but how has the pq done anything but diminish montreal's competitiveness and relative stature?

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by Surrealplaces

Good thing that's not the case, because you would also become an ignorant bumfuck like the others.

How many ignorant bumfucks in rural Quebec give two shits about policies in Alberta and Saskatchewan? Oh, that's right: none.

There is a virulent strain of anti-Quebec sentiment in the prairies borne of ignorance and...what? I don't know. It's ignorance of the Sun News variety. It goes like this: wholesome hardworking prairie folk are being soaked for transfer payments so that Quebec can have its whimsical linguistic policies and leftwing socialism.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Martin Mtl

Here's a perfect exemple of the kind of faulty and short-cut reporting that makes thing appear worse than they are. There are no laws in Quebec prohibiting other langage on signs. What bill 101 says, is that french has to be on the sign and it has to be predominant, but after that, you can put as many other langages as you want, including english.

We still have something of a "manifest destiny lag" in North America. Since Quebec is basically the only feisty challenger to the perceived God-given right to anglo-hegemony north of the Rio Grande, it's not surprising that scathing articles about it are a dime a dozen in the biggest media language of the world.

As for the anti-Semitism angle it's obvious you will get this in this type of publication, but the reality in Quebec is that long-established Ashkenazi Jews that are militant in favour of anglo rights are perceived by most people as anglos just like all the others. In the same way that an Italian or a Greek-origin anglo would be perceived for example.

[saffronleaf]

At the end of the day though, I hope Ontario makes it clear that both francophones and non-francophones, who in significant numbers are contemplating moving to Ontario, are more than welcome.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Martin Mtl

And Quebec city. They voted for the CAQ at the last election, except for Agnès Maltais' riding.

That's a fairly recent phenomenon. Historically the PQ has done reasonably well there as well. Not so in the Outaouais.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by Acajack

We still have something of a "manifest destiny lag" in North America. Since Quebec is basically the only feisty challenger to the perceived God-given right to anglo-hegemony north of the Rio Grande, it's not surprising that scathing articles about it are a dime a dozen in the biggest media language of the world.

As for the anti-Semitism angle it's obvious you will get this in this type of publication, but the reality in Quebec is that long-established Ashkenazi Jews that are militant in favour of anglo rights are perceived by most people as anglos just like all the others. In the same way that an Italian or a Greek-origin anglo would be perceived for example.

Exactly. Everyone is out to get Quebec. Even the Israelis. Makes sense.

And I didn't realize how "militant" the Ashkenazi Jews were about wanting to maintain their language. I guess now it makes sense as to why Marois went after them with the Charter.

[Chadillaccc]

Not surprised at all.

I wonder how huge the depopulation would be if sovereignty happened... 500 000+? Possibly more with the ending of transfer payments and the provincial (becoming federal) government taking its share of Canada's federal debt load and the subsequent drastic lowering of quality of life and services.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

this must, on some level, be a quebecer-first, montrealer-second decision. i know it is the stereotypically anglo position, and contains a bit of what you have referred to as "devil's bargain"-type reasoning, but how has the pq done anything but diminish montreal's competitiveness and relative stature?

I don't disagree with you but most born and bred francophone Montrealers I know vote PQ. By a wide margin. Most of the Montrealers who are francophones that I know and who vote Liberal are either from the Outaouais or from other provinces of Canada.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

drastic lowering of quality of life and services.

equalization is not as large a portion of quebec's budget as many think.

the "haiti but for english canada" argument is not particularly accurate.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

Exactly. Everyone is out to get Quebec. Even the Israelis. Makes sense.

And I didn't realize how "militant" the Ashkenazi Jews were about wanting to maintain their language. I guess now it makes sense as to why Marois went after them with the Charter.

I never said that, although some more balanced reporting would nice for a change.

[MTLskyline]

Yes, I have considered leaving, and the province I would choose if I left is Ontario. Why not NB? Too far (most anglos live in the western part of the province), and I want to live in a large city. The reason I considered leaving was primarily economic: when I graduated university I was looking for work, and there were simply more opportunities next door. I realize that Alberta is better than Ontario for jobs, but it seems like a much more radical decision. If I lived in Ontario, I could head back to Montreal for the odd weekend, which would not really be possible in Alberta.

Politics are more of a minor irritant. Don't be fooled by the media or websites like mtlurb (in which every thread unravels into the same tired political debate): people get along relatively well.

The main thing keeping me here is the fact that it is an amazing place to live. On paper, it is often a losing-battle to prove Montreal is just as good as other places. It's really more of matter of a lot of non-quantifiable things.

[Surrealplaces]

When I said 'the others' I meant the so called ignorant bumfucks from the prairies. In other words if you took that separatist attitude because of a few on line comments you would be no different. Besides, don't kid yourself, there are plenty of ignorant people everywhere including rural Quebec.


Why the anti Quebec strain? Who knows? I know that the language laws and separatists probably didn't help. People in Quebec wonder why media in other parts of the country bring up Quebec language stuff, they need look no further than said language laws.

Originally Posted by rousseau

How many ignorant bumfucks in rural Quebec give two shits about policies in Alberta and Saskatchewan? Oh, that's right: none.

There is a virulent strain of anti-Quebec sentiment in the prairies borne of ignorance and...what? I don't know. It's ignorance of the Sun News variety. It goes like this: wholesome hardworking prairie folk are being soaked for transfer payments so that Quebec can have its whimsical linguistic policies and leftwing socialism.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

Not surprised at all.

I wonder how huge the depopulation would be if sovereignty happened... 500 000+? Possibly more with the ending of transfer payments and the provincial (becoming federal) government taking its share of Canada's federal debt load and the subsequent drastic lowering of quality of life and services.

Probably less than 500,000. Maybe in the 250,000 range though.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

Not surprised at all.

I wonder how huge the depopulation would be if sovereignty happened... 500 000+? Possibly more with the ending of transfer payments and the provincial (becoming federal) government taking its share of Canada's federal debt load and the subsequent drastic lowering of quality of life and services.

1. Quebec's economy will be fine. Transfer payments per capita in Quebec are very low. Quebec's high population means that the transfer payments will be large in absolute numbers, but that's all. The impact will probably be negligible.

2. Regardless, I feel like a substantial portion of Quebec, especially ROQers, are willing to languish in third world poverty if it meant that their lands were cleansed of the ethnics and Anglos.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I don't disagree with you but most born and bred francophone Montrealers I know vote PQ. By a wide margin.

me too. many of them seem as if they are not particularly concerned with montreal-as-metropolis, and are more content for it to be some sort of copenhagen-like thing.

there are times when i suspect they may get less of a copenhagen and more of a zagreb, but that's the old divide. as michel houellebecq said after moving from france to ireland, everything about life in english reflects the fact that it was they (we) who invented capitalism. we are a very mercantile people, and we speak about cities in a mercantile way. this can be both fruitful and limiting.

[Surrealplaces]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

equalization is not as large a portion of quebec's budget as many think.

the "haiti but for english canada" argument is not particularly accurate.

True. I believe it amounts to around 1K per person....not exactly huge bucks. I think PEI gets something like 3K per person.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

1. Quebec's economy will be fine. Transfer payments per capita in Quebec are very low. Quebec's high population means that the transfer payments will be large in absolute numbers, but that's all. The impact will probably be negligible.

2. Regardless, I feel like a substantial portion of Quebec, especially ROQers, are willing to languish in third world poverty if it meant that their lands were cleansed of the ethnics and Anglos.

That is not part of the equation so it's really a moot point.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

me too. many of them seem as if they are not particularly concerned with montreal-as-metropolis, and are more content for it to be some sort of copenhagen-like thing.

Exactement.

They'd rather have Montreal as their own and a bit smaller than have it bigger and be someone else's metropolis.

[geotag277]

Originally Posted by rousseau

How many ignorant bumfucks in rural Quebec give two shits about policies in Alberta and Saskatchewan? Oh, that's right: none.

There is a virulent strain of anti-Quebec sentiment in the prairies borne of ignorance and...what? I don't know. It's ignorance of the Sun News variety. It goes like this: wholesome hardworking prairie folk are being soaked for transfer payments so that Quebec can have its whimsical linguistic policies and leftwing socialism.

LoL wut?

Trust me, there are idiots in every great province in this country. There are just as many idiots in Quebec whose entire understanding of the prairies are hick towns with oil money. There are plenty of people in Alberta who have a similarly skewed view of Quebec.

But in the VAST, VAST, VAST majority of cases, no one in Alberta knows or cares what Quebec does and no one from Quebec knows or cares what Alberta does. If you think any one place in this country has some sort of demographic stranglehold on ignorance you are sadly mistaken.

Stop trying to define regions by the few idiots you happen to run into online, myself included