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  #541  
Old Posted May 25, 2008, 11:58 PM
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Even a blind pig...

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Originally Posted by murdoc9 View Post
I always thought Cannon was an idiot when I lived out there. There is no way that Shale can be developed for anywhere near the $30/barrel level. The problems have to do with water, pollution, and most importantly (in terms of cost) energy needed to convert into usable hydrocarbon fuel. Think about how much fuel must be used to power the conversion process and then think about the costs of those inputs. With the additional spectre of pollution controls coming online, most likely in a cap a trade type system which all the presidential candidates support, this looks like a dog.

Cannon is pandering to his constituency, and someone needs to vote that clown out of office.
Murdoc: 30 years ago, you would have been exactly right in your criticism of producing usable oil out of shale. But technology has changed, dramatically. In addition, there is a ratio that is used to calculate the energy value per acre(fossil fuels, including crude oil). I'm not sure how the ratio is derived (I read it, but I don't understand it). But to give you an idea of how much energy is locked up in the eastern Utah shale, the richest energy field in the WORLD is Campbell County WY (think Gillette and Sheridan WY coal), with a ratio of .5 (the higher number, the better). Many of the oil shale deposits in Utah are at 2.5, 5 times the value in Campbell Co!!!!!!

I agree with your assessment of Congressman Cannon. He is not the sharpest knife in the drawer. But it appears, to paraphrase Shakespeare, "Even a blind pig finds an acorn once in a while."
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  #542  
Old Posted May 26, 2008, 5:05 AM
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I agree with the fact that there is a lot of energy there, but the problem is converting that energy into oil. You can burn the stuff like coal, but if you want to make oil out of it, it takes a great deal of water and energy and releases a great deal of pollution. That translates to high costs, and high pollution for some of the most beautiful and pristine places on the planet. The only way that an energy company could produce oil from the shale in Utah for $30/barrel is with government subsidies. So basically taxpayers would get to pay for the pillaging of this land, and by the way it still would hardly be economically feasible with the pollution control legislation that will shortly be upon us. I'm not trying to be a downer, I grew up with stories of the 70's oil boom in those parts and always wondered why the oil shales weren't being developed. It's enticing to think of the west as the next Saudi Arabia, but it isn't going to happen, and thats a good thing when you understand the consequences of the development.
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  #543  
Old Posted May 26, 2008, 5:31 AM
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Originally Posted by RFPCME View Post
I agree with your assessment of Congressman Cannon. He is not the sharpest knife in the drawer. But it appears, to paraphrase Shakespeare, "Even a blind pig finds an acorn once in a while."
Off topic, but I disagree on Rep. Cannon. I don't think he's stupid, I just think he's greedy and corrupt. He'll have another very close primary on June 24 against Jason Chaffetz, a former aide to Gov. Huntsman I believe.
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  #544  
Old Posted May 26, 2008, 12:35 PM
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Off topic, but I disagree on Rep. Cannon. I don't think he's stupid, I just think he's greedy and corrupt. He'll have another very close primary on June 24 against Jason Chaffetz, a former aide to Gov. Huntsman I believe.
As jmonkey implied, Cannon is definately not stupid, but very smart. Just because someone's looks or demeanor is not that of a Huntsman or Romney, doesn't mean they are stupid.

I always try to give any politician a chance, whether democrat or republican. Whatever opinion is popular with the media at the moment is alway's suspect to me. However, with Rep. Cannon, I am pretty convinced that something is a little amuck. Back in the days when Joe Cannon ran Geneva Steel, I had some close friends on the inside of the situation. At the very least, Rep. Cannon was definately not held in very high regard by his brother's closest assistants.
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  #545  
Old Posted May 26, 2008, 1:20 PM
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Originally Posted by murdoc9 View Post
I agree with the fact that there is a lot of energy there, but the problem is converting that energy into oil. You can burn the stuff like coal, but if you want to make oil out of it, it takes a great deal of water and energy and releases a great deal of pollution. That translates to high costs, and high pollution for some of the most beautiful and pristine places on the planet. The only way that an energy company could produce oil from the shale in Utah for $30/barrel is with government subsidies. So basically taxpayers would get to pay for the pillaging of this land, and by the way it still would hardly be economically feasible with the pollution control legislation that will shortly be upon us. I'm not trying to be a downer, I grew up with stories of the 70's oil boom in those parts and always wondered why the oil shales weren't being developed. It's enticing to think of the west as the next Saudi Arabia, but it isn't going to happen, and thats a good thing when you understand the consequences of the development.
No one is more anxious than me for alternative sources of energy that are clean, renewable and efficient. Would someone please answer a few questions.

First, it would seem to me that even if we were suddenly able to convert all transportation to an alternative source here in the U.S. and Western Europe, we would still be held hostage by the baron's and thugs who control the petro industry. So many global products are petro-based, and the demand for those products is increasing at such an alarming rate that there is no quick, Oil-Free answer for now. There is no Oil-Free answer that will free us from the very dangerous hostage situation we increasingly find ourselves under here in the U.S.

Secondly, it is my understanding that the latest techniques for extraction of shale and it's subsequent refining, are much different and far superior to that which is being used in abundance in Alberta right now. For that matter, it is also superior to traditional pumping and refining methods used in places such as the Middle East, or thug-states such as Venezuala or the many 'Stan's' of the former Soviet Union.

I agree that it is extremely important to convert as quickly as possible to renewable sources of energy for the needs of our transportation, and utilities.

However, it would seem glaringly obvious that given the realities of petro-based products and the current global situation facing us, it would be dangerously irreposnsible to not pursue a vast resource in our own back yard. Is this resource not far superior to the resource that we are now enslaved to? Are we wrong to place our trust in local officials, such as a Huntsman, rather than these disgusting thugs and barons ,whose mentality is from the Dark Ages, and now control a large percentage of our most basic economic make-up.

Yes, in a very big way to solar, wind generated geo-thermal, etc. But isn't this going to have to be a MULTI-PRONGED approach? Isn't it also going to take oil-shale to free us from the tyranny of our current situation?
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  #546  
Old Posted May 26, 2008, 7:31 PM
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Another thing to consider is it doesn't really matter if oil shale is super cheap, it just needs to be cheaper than the 125.00 barrels we are getting from the middle east... If we can produce it for 100.00 dollars a barrel that will still free us from our foreign oil dependency.
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  #547  
Old Posted May 26, 2008, 8:26 PM
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How sad that now a days with gas costing so much that even fast food places are now offering "Free Foul" instead of cash prizes with their games. ( Taco Bell )
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  #548  
Old Posted May 26, 2008, 9:12 PM
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Delts, I completely agree with you and would love to see the day when we don't have to rely on anybody for energy needs. Obviously, in pursuit of this goal we need to look at many different sources, of which shale is a source. My concern is that this isn't a viable source of hydrocarbon fuel, but will be made so by stupid/corrupt politicians by offering incentives to develop. There is no doubt that shale holds promise, it is very similar to coal and could be used in similar ways. I do still worry about the environmental impacts, and would love to put money and effort into something without so many drawbacks.

Incidentally, I love the fact that Utah is going all out with mass transit. I live in Indiana now while finishing school, and believe me, Utah is light years ahead of us here. I attended a ULI conference not long ago aimed at giving mass transit a kick in the pants and Utah was one of the examples given of well done systems. A federal program to stimulate the development of these types of systems and interconnecting them would do much more for our energy independence, not to mention economic competiveness than shale.
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  #549  
Old Posted May 27, 2008, 2:01 AM
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Alternative energy?

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Originally Posted by delts145 View Post
No one is more anxious than me for alternative sources of energy that are clean, renewable and efficient. Would someone please answer a few questions.

First, it would seem to me that even if we were suddenly able to convert all transportation to an alternative source here in the U.S. and Western Europe, we would still be held hostage by the baron's and thugs who control the petro industry. So many global products are petro-based, and the demand for those products is increasing at such an alarming rate that there is no quick, Oil-Free answer for now. There is no Oil-Free answer that will free us from the very dangerous hostage situation we increasingly find ourselves under here in the U.S.

Secondly, it is my understanding that the latest techniques for extraction of shale and it's subsequent refining, are much different and far superior to that which is being used in abundance in Alberta right now. For that matter, it is also superior to traditional pumping and refining methods used in places such as the Middle East, or thug-states such as Venezuala or the many 'Stan's' of the former Soviet Union.

I agree that it is extremely important to convert as quickly as possible to renewable sources of energy for the needs of our transportation, and utilities.

However, it would seem glaringly obvious that given the realities of petro-based products and the current global situation facing us, it would be dangerously irreposnsible to not pursue a vast resource in our own back yard. Is this resource not far superior to the resource that we are now enslaved to? Are we wrong to place our trust in local officials, such as a Huntsman, rather than these disgusting thugs and barons ,whose mentality is from the Dark Ages, and now control a large percentage of our most basic economic make-up.

Yes, in a very big way to solar, wind generated geo-thermal, etc. But isn't this going to have to be a MULTI-PRONGED approach? Isn't it also going to take oil-shale to free us from the tyranny of our current situation?
Delts: What a thoughtful and appropriate response. Well reasoned. Conservation is a must to solve our exploding energy crisis and imploding economy. But conservation is not the only answer.

Alternative energy in the form of solar, wind, and geothermal is not viable environmentally, in addition to cost. Nor is it reasonable to think advances in technologies will make these technologies more environmentally friendly or cost effective BEFORE advances in fossil-fuel technology. We simply have 100 year head start with fossil fuels.

More important, we ignore the environmental consequences of harnessing these energy sources. For example, if solar power technology were 100 times more efficient, make it 1,000 times more efficient, the sprawl created by solar plants large enough to supply a significant portion of our necessary energy would make strip mining look attractive, forgetting about the exotic materials that must be processed and refined to make this technology realistic.

Hydrogen is a clean source of fuel. No doubt. And it is abundant. Next to nitrogen I think it is the most prevalent element on the planet. The problem with hydrogen is the necessary changes in infrastructure to make it feasible are absurd, with far more environmental consequences than burning fossil fuels. It will work in Iceland, where it is working, because there is no other source, and the changes in infrastructure are minor, considering the entire population of the country is less than 300K.

Geothermal is the least promising option. The small town I grew up in has a geothermal power plant, which is currently being doubled in size because of tax incentives. There are two big limitations on this option: one, the potential sites around the world (with the exception of Iceland again) with geothermal potential are few; second, the environmental consequences of geothermal energy are extreme. For one, the amount of acid or other caustic by-products (depending on the source of the power) is enormous. In addition, these by-products, which occur anytime you force water through the earth's crust, eat the crap out of turbine blades necessary to produce power, even blades that are aircraft quality made of exotic materials.

I hate to mention nuclear as an alternative energy source, because of the stigma associated with it in this country. But, as we all know, it also comes with its own set of consequences.

I think the problem is that we look at supposedly free and clean energy sources and think they are gifts from God, with no consequences. Has anyone ever seen that wind farm on a high ridge above Laramie WY? If there was ever anything more unsightly and noisy and an extravagant waste of precious natural resources, it's this farm. And it's positioned on one of the windiest places in the continental US.

Obviously, I take issue with positions thinking alternative energy sources are realistic options to the position we are in now. Conservation must be our first priority, but conservation alone will not solve the problem. And every other energy option, besides fossil fuels, I read about and investigate comes with consequences that are appalling, which no one ever talks about. If we are going to bet on technology to save our butts, I think we ought to bet on technology that is the simplest and best understood--fossil fuels. Hydrocarbons (fossil fuels) are very simple molecules, especially when compared to other molecules necessary in alternative energy sources, which is why there is so damn much of the stuff on planet earth, and not much gold or arsenic, which are essential ingredients in each of the alternative energy sources I discussed above.

Finally, I do not work for a coal or oil company, nor own stock in any either. I am just tired of trite, knee-jerk reactions with simplistic solutions to complex problems that are getting worse daily. Oversimplifying a problem just lengthens the time to solve it.
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  #550  
Old Posted May 27, 2008, 2:23 AM
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Off topic again

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Originally Posted by jmonkey View Post
Off topic, but I disagree on Rep. Cannon. I don't think he's stupid, I just think he's greedy and corrupt. He'll have another very close primary on June 24 against Jason Chaffetz, a former aide to Gov. Huntsman I believe.
jmonkey: Thanks for the information on the upcoming primary. Not living in Utah any longer, I don't stay up on Utah politics. I hope the primary is not close. I sincerely hope Mr. Chaffetz wins in a landslide. The people of Utah deserve better.
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  #551  
Old Posted May 27, 2008, 2:34 AM
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Well said, delts and RFPCME. Well said.
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  #552  
Old Posted May 27, 2008, 6:39 AM
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Originally Posted by RFPCME View Post
jmonkey: Thanks for the information on the upcoming primary. Not living in Utah any longer, I don't stay up on Utah politics. I hope the primary is not close. I sincerely hope Mr. Chaffetz wins in a landslide. The people of Utah deserve better.
Rep. Cannon has had a couple of minor controversies; he also has a very vocal segment of his constituency that believes he is too soft on immigration. This is another round of state convention/primary fights for Cannon, and the closest so far. Chaffetz came within a fraction of a percent of taking the nomination of the state's Republican Party, but Cannon always closes the gap to win the primary, and couldn't lose in general election in the 3rd District--he has an (R) after his name on the ballot, you know. If Cannon survives June 24th, he'll get another term in congress.

Sorry to hijack, again!
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  #553  
Old Posted May 27, 2008, 8:46 PM
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^
Unfortunently, if history has anything to tell us about the upcoming primary then it will be a landslide, but in favor of Cannon.
I have listened to both of these guys and I really like what Chaffetz is saying but being Utah every one will Automaticly vote for Cannon just because they recognize his name. Cannon has had serious challengers in the past and this happens every time.
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  #554  
Old Posted May 28, 2008, 12:13 AM
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Back on topic

RC14 and jmonkey: I'm forever the optimist, but I'm sure you're both right that Rep. Cannon will win the primary and the general election. I would guess, however, it may be closer than before. There is "change blowin' in the wind."

Back on topic...even with a likely highly Democratic Congress and a Democratic President, I think the masses will not tolerate high fuel prices, along with high food and almost high everything else prices because of $125 a barrel-plus oil prices. My guess is that even the environmental lobby cannot stop a comprehensive energy policy, which includes new funding and incentives for mass transit, incentives for alternative energy production (although I'm not a big fan of this approach, it will be the olive branch offered the environmentalists), incentives for conservation, and a general rethinking of how this Nation uses and produces energy, which should bode well for oil shale production.

So maybe we needed this mess to drive us to what needs to be done. It would be nice to see something like the coming-together that happened after 9-11 to tackle a threat to our country, our culture, our lives that is much larger than the one Al Qaeda ever presented. But I am forever the optimist.
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  #555  
Old Posted May 29, 2008, 12:28 PM
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New fuel standards advancing lighter cars, hybrids

http://www.heraldextra.com/content/view/267824/18/

A brave new world of smaller and likely more expensive vehicles - electric cars, hybrids, and diesel-powered cars - is right around the corner for U.S. consumers...

.
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  #556  
Old Posted May 29, 2008, 7:11 PM
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I rode Frontrunner to Ogden and back yesterday. It was very smooth and quiet. It must have rubber wheels like TRAXX. I was very impressed. At one point the train was travelling faster than the cars on the freeway. Coming back from Ogden I felt pity for the dummies stuck in construction on the freeway. Frontrunner is a very good thing!
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  #557  
Old Posted May 31, 2008, 1:39 PM
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Bonjour, Salt Lake - direct from Paris - On Monday, Delta debuts its nonstop flights between Utah and Europe

http://www.sltrib.com/business/ci_9433379


bergoiata.org

A new transportation era in Salt Lake City will begin in the wee hours of Monday morning.
At 2:20 a.m., while most Salt Lakers are slumbering, a Delta Air Lines jet will lift off from Charles de Gaulle International Airport in Paris bound for Utah's capital, 5,100 air miles and nearly 12 hours away.

"I think about the opening of the hub [Delta operates at the airport] all the way back to when it was started by Western Airlines" in 1987, said Natalie Gochnour, chief operating officer of the Salt Lake Chamber.
"I think about the rebuilding of Interstate 15 and the opening of TRAX light rail and Frontrunner commuter rail. These were transportation milestones that signified a significant new opportunity for residents."


.
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  #558  
Old Posted May 31, 2008, 4:21 PM
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^^^^^ I really hope this flight succeeds. If it does, we will see more transcontinental flights.
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  #559  
Old Posted May 31, 2008, 11:38 PM
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As we talk about conservation and renewable resources we also have to consider how some things that are billed as "conservation" I read in planning magazine several months ago and have heard it several other places that buying a hybrid is actually more detrimental to the environment.

If you are buying a hybrid to save money on gas, it is estimated that it could take nearly 10 years to reap the benefits of the extra fuel economy vs the price of gas. (not from planning magazine)

The actual carbon footprint for a hybrid is actually more harmful to the environment, due to the eventual disposal of the battery system, than driving a substantially less fuel efficient car, such as a full size SUV(suburban). The emissions for the suburban will create less harm to the environment than the emissions and battery disposal of a hybrid.

Just wanted to pass that little information on. I think it's funny how some people that drive hybrids (not all) get on this big environmental high horse and have the attitude that they are so much better than the rest of us non hybrid owners, when actually Soccer Mom from Draper is actually causing less harm driving around her full size Yukon.
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  #560  
Old Posted May 31, 2008, 11:44 PM
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Future mayor you have to see the southpark about hybrid cars because it about the high horse mentality very funny!
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