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  #41  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2008, 5:09 AM
MalcolmTucker MalcolmTucker is offline
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Originally Posted by Jamaican-Phoenix View Post
I would actually have it be Montreal-Ottawa-Toronto with connection to all three airports. This way, you actually connect via HSR three of the four largest cities in Canada...
Just a standard speed rail connection (not shared with freight) with good frequency, would be enough to tie in, no reason to pay so much when there would be a forced transfer in Montreal anyways (don't think their would be enough O'D to justify direct Ottawa-Toronto trains at the frequency needed to make it viable).

You could make the same justification to extending to Hamilton using highspeed, but what is the point really, it is better to build in phases, and build up good feeder networks, which takes alot of time. Plus, it would likely make more sense to not run through Hamilton at all, but roughly follow the 401 and hit the surrounding cities. Especially since the infrastructure is already planned to feed Hamilton into the Union hub.
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  #42  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2008, 7:40 AM
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Jared and Mister F,

Those are all good points and they address some of my concerns.
Don't get me wrong, I don't have any problem with the idea exactly except that I can't figure out what in the world makes this thing cost $25 billion dollars ?
For that kind of cash, is it worth it ? That's really what I'm getting at here. Three, four, even five billion bucks...well, okay I suppose. I don't understand why it would have to cost even that much but okay, that's not really all that significant in the big scheme. But $25 billion ? Why would this cost that much ?
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  #43  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2008, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Just a standard speed rail connection (not shared with freight) with good frequency, would be enough to tie in, no reason to pay so much when there would be a forced transfer in Montreal anyways (don't think their would be enough O'D to justify direct Ottawa-Toronto trains at the frequency needed to make it viable).
Why would there be a forced transfer in Montreal?
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  #44  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2008, 12:38 PM
SJTOKO SJTOKO is offline
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Introducing the Bombardier Jet Train...... It's time!!!

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  #45  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2008, 2:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyle_olsen View Post
(don't think their would be enough O'D to justify direct Ottawa-Toronto trains at the frequency needed to make it viable).
I think you might be surprised at the numbers for Ottawa-Toronto on something like Air Canada’s Rapidair for example. Flights between Ottawa and Toronto are actually proportionately (when you take into account the fact that Montreal is much larger than Ottawa) busier than the Montreal-Toronto flights.
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  #46  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2008, 3:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyle_olsen View Post
Just a standard speed rail connection (not shared with freight) with good frequency, would be enough to tie in, no reason to pay so much when there would be a forced transfer in Montreal anyways (don't think their would be enough O'D to justify direct Ottawa-Toronto trains at the frequency needed to make it viable).
Well, tomorrow Toronto-Ottawa and vice versa will see 10 trains compared to 12 trains on Montreal-Toronto and Ottawa-Montreal. That suggests that the O&D is substantial on both the Ottawa-Toronto and Ottawa-Montreal routes

A Montreal-Ottawa-Toronto routing would be slightly longer; however, the time difference between Montreal-Ottawa-Toronto would be engulfed by the time-savings of highspeed rail. I think the additional passengers would more than compensate for the additional time traveled. I would guess that the increased time would likely only amount to 30min or so, including the additional station dwell time in Ottawa.

There are several other reasons I feel Ottawa-Montreal is the most logical starting point. First, VIA owns the infrastructure in that corridor, and has already improved it significantly. I expect the capital costs for introducing high speed rail along the Alexandria subdivision would be significantly reduced compared to other parts of the Quebec-Windsor corridor. Additionally, the Ottawa-Montreal route would likely have the greatest potential increase in passengers, as the run could be reduced from approximately 2hrs to 1+hrs, essentially combining the Ottawa and Montreal commutersheds.
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  #47  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2008, 4:49 PM
MalcolmTucker MalcolmTucker is offline
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I wonder if Ottawa would still have international flights if there was a train to Dorval that only took 45 mins- 1hr.

I am not arguing against connecting Ottawa, I am just saying that the government won't pay for two routes, which would be needed for efficient travel to both Montreal and Toronto, and that the route to Montreal will be more likely to be built. Imagine the political firestorm of delaying every passenger for you estimation at least 30 minutes (and likely more) between Montreal and Toronto, when this is a provincially led project. Especially when Montreal is more likely to become the highspeed hub (more than one highspeed line) than Toronto (with a Boston - Montreal line).

Eventually they might build a more direct route, ala the 416, but I wouldn't count it likely until the primary line is done, and even then it would take alot of political pressure to do so.
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  #48  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2008, 5:46 PM
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The first stage when you build these things is to go where the people are. The vast majority of the population between Toronto and Montreal is in the Ottawa area (more than 1 million), so it is unlikely that it would be bypassed in the first stage. More likely that the route would first be Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal to take maximum advantage of the most potential ridership in the corridor. A subsequent project, once ridership was well-established, would then be to build a bypass of the Ottawa area along the St. Lawrence River to allow some trains to go directly between Toronto and Montreal without stopping in Ottawa.

If you look at European high speed rail lines, many of them are not in straight lines between major cities and do have detours in order to serve second-tier cities: Milan-Rome via Bologna, Madrid-Barcelona via Zaragoza, etc.

Regarding people being miffed at the train taking 30 minutes longer because of the Ottawa connection, don’t forget that people won’t be choosing the train (or not) based on how fast it *could* be without the Ottawa stop, but rather on how fast it is compared to other modes.
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  #49  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2008, 7:31 PM
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I found a Fraser Institute report on the transportation performance of Canada’s provinces:
http://www.fraserinstitute.org/Comme...nceFigure6.pdf

Consider this:

Toronto’s metro population is 4.6 times Ottawa’s, but Toronto's population is only 1.4 times Montreal’s.

Annual air passenger traffic between Toronto and Montreal is 1.129 million, whereas between Ottawa and Toronto it’s 669,000.

Ottawa-Toronto air traffic is therefore a good 60% of Montreal-Toronto traffic, even though Montreal is a much larger city (in both actual population and relative to Toronto) than Ottawa is.

Bottom line: proponents of high speed rail in Quebec and Ontario would be foolish to not include Ottawa (in a Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal configuration) during the first stage of the project.
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  #50  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2008, 7:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SJTOKO View Post
Introducing the Bombardier Jet Train...... It's time!!!

During the 2007 Provincial Election, Dalton McGuinty actually mentioned that Bombardier would be making hydrogen fuelled trains in Thunder Bay some day in the future! He hasn't mentioned them since and every time anyone asks about it, it gets ignore, but he put it out there, and Mauro was re-elected by 46 votes!!
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  #51  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2008, 9:54 PM
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So the article says that it would take 2 hours for a TO-MTL trip. Guessing that's about 600km, the train would travle at 300km/h.

So here's the approxomate timetables for OT,TO,MTL and QC

OT-TO 500km : 1h40 TO-MTL 600km : 2h MTL-QC 300km : 1h
OT-MTL 200km : 35min TO-QC 100km: 3h
OT-QC 500km : 1h40

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  #52  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2008, 10:06 PM
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The new Super TGV in France will travel at 350 km/h, we could do better!
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  #53  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2008, 10:58 PM
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Another stellar waste of money that's only good for ribbon cutting.
Upgrade some of the current infastructure/vehicles, offer more frequent service between Win/QC and that's it.

$25 billion could build enough rapid transit in the corridor that could literally move hundreds of millions a year as opposed to the paultry amount will this result in.

Good for the enviornment?..my ass! That's like saying one limited sale & speed green car is going to make as much of a difference as all cars reducing their emissions by 50%. It does nothing to promote TOD, transit, or greengas emmision reduction.

It's great for politicans and election ribon cutting but little else. Just improve the current system and spend the remaining $24 billion on projects that will make a real difference for the enviornment and quality of life.
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  #54  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2008, 1:05 AM
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Most people would rather spend 2 hours in a train than 2 hours in an airport, 45 minutes in flight, 15 minutes taxiing and and hour getting to the core of the city.

And, funny thing, trains pollute ALLOT less than airplanes!

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  #55  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2008, 2:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spocket View Post
Jared and Mister F,

Those are all good points and they address some of my concerns.
Don't get me wrong, I don't have any problem with the idea exactly except that I can't figure out what in the world makes this thing cost $25 billion dollars ?
For that kind of cash, is it worth it ? That's really what I'm getting at here. Three, four, even five billion bucks...well, okay I suppose. I don't understand why it would have to cost even that much but okay, that's not really all that significant in the big scheme. But $25 billion ? Why would this cost that much ?
No idea how the costs break down, although based on other systems, I'm not terribly surprised at the cost.

In terms of "worth it", again, it needs to be compared to the alternatives. $25 billion is a big-ass amount of money, but imagine (I'm just throwing this number out there) if upgrading the highways and airports cost $40 billion. Would it still be "too expensive"?

Of course, the difference is that high speed rail can have its costs put forth in one complete package, since it's essentially one project. Road and airport upgrades, on the other hand, would be many smaller projects, not one massive one (at least not to the same scale as HSR), and hence you wouldn't get the "OMFG, look at all that money!!1" kind of reaction, even if the total cost of all these projects was greater.


ssiguy, I used to be of the same mind. But the difference is, if you dont spend it on HSR, the money isnt going to local transit, it would be going to airport expansion and highway expansion. Unless you are suggestion that essentially no intercity upgrades (rail, road or airport) should happen, you're always going to have costs that could otherwise be devoted to local transit.

Think of it not as "instead of building this LRT network...", but rather "instead of building this massive new airport..."


------------------

On another note, does anyone have any idea how much it would cost just to do some basic signaling upgrades, track purchases etc. that would allow Via to run trains at, say 175km/h consistently, and without delays from freight trains?
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  #56  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2008, 4:20 AM
MalcolmTucker MalcolmTucker is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AylmerOptimist View Post
So the article says that it would take 2 hours for a TO-MTL trip. Guessing that's about 600km, the train would travle at 300km/h.

So here's the approxomate timetables for OT,TO,MTL and QC

OT-TO 500km : 1h40 TO-MTL 600km : 2h MTL-QC 300km : 1h
OT-MTL 200km : 35min TO-QC 100km: 3h
OT-QC 500km : 1h40

Remember, you can't travel full speed inside cities without massive rework (think London St. Pancreas and the EuroStar link). Also have to factor in acceleration, and deceleration based on how many stops.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jared View Post

On another note, does anyone have any idea how much it would cost just to do some basic signaling upgrades, track purchases etc. that would allow Via to run trains at, say 175km/h consistently, and without delays from freight trains?
Alot of the cost for HSR is securing new ROW, and then grade seperating it. I can't imagine it would be that much cheaper to build new standard rail , besides the obvious avoidance of full grade seperation, and not needing traction power.
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  #57  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2008, 5:01 AM
MalcolmTucker MalcolmTucker is offline
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Here are some things from a Calgary-Edmonton HSR feasibility report, a little old, so the capital cost estimates are a bit low.

Technology comparison

Comparison and Breakdown of Capital Cost


Route Discription (will help to apply results to this corridor)
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  #58  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2008, 5:24 AM
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what would be great is Windsor, Hamilton, Toronto, Kingston, Montréal, Québec city and a cnnection Montréal - Ottawa and Montréal - Boston - NYC
but im sure the coast will be around 30B$

Downtown Montréal to Downtown New York 2Hours and 30 minutes

and after all that Windsor to Chicago
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  #59  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2008, 5:27 AM
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I wish there would be a HSR between Vancouver, Abbotsford and Calgary I'm just surprised this hasn't been built between Ottawa and Toronto yet. They should get this going.
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  #60  
Old Posted Nov 15, 2008, 10:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyle_olsen View Post
I am not arguing against connecting Ottawa, I am just saying that the government won't pay for two routes, which would be needed for efficient travel to both Montreal and Toronto, and that the route to Montreal will be more likely to be built. Imagine the political firestorm of delaying every passenger for you estimation at least 30 minutes (and likely more) between Montreal and Toronto, when this is a provincially led project. Especially when Montreal is more likely to become the highspeed hub (more than one highspeed line) than Toronto (with a Boston - Montreal line).

Eventually they might build a more direct route, ala the 416, but I wouldn't count it likely until the primary line is done, and even then it would take alot of political pressure to do so.
You're still not getting the fact that the proposed route does not follow the St. Lawrence river through Ontario:
from highspeedrail.ca

HSR would need dedicated ROWs and there are plenty of abandoned rail corridors that are easier to deal with than the overused lines along the seaway.
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