Homecoming reflections (TO, Mtl, Hfx) - Page 15

Andy6 · #**281** Posted **Jul 31, 2018, 4:34 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack

I am sure there are a number of factors and that employment opportunities factored into it as well to a point.

If it's like other universities, Canadian students are becoming an afterthought and the idea is to load it up with full-fare paying foreign students.

Acajack · #**282** Posted **Jul 31, 2018, 5:14 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy6

If it's like other universities, Canadian students are becoming an afterthought and the idea is to load it up with full-fare paying foreign students.

Yeah, I would not doubt that that is a factor as well.

Off the top of my head, the international Francophonie has around 200 million people. That's a pretty good pool of potential foreign students to tap into, even if there is a lot of desperate poverty in that space too.

someone123 · #**283** Posted **Jul 31, 2018, 5:24 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy6

If it's like other universities, Canadian students are becoming an afterthought and the idea is to load it up with full-fare paying foreign students.

It sure has become a rotten system, which seems now to exist mostly to enrich university administrators. Every part of the system is at least somewhat bad. The average research quality is poor, the ones doing the most work are treated the worst, students are taken advantage of, and in a lot of cases the system has to implement various horrible forms of discrimination to operate. It's like the housing market in that it seems like it should collapse but it just gets worse and worse, building up a kind of negative social potential energy.

Both systems are corrupt for the same reason; they operate for a small group of people who control them. The housing market is largely about enriching developers and owners instead of efficiently producing housing. The post-secondary education system is mostly based around zero-sum credentialing instead of actual education so it is uncompetitive and has been subverted.

mistercorporate · #**284** Posted **Jul 31, 2018, 5:32 PM**

Thank God I graduated years ago. The university system has become a cash grab mechanism targetting foreign students and a tool for mass non-targeted immigration.

Acajack · #**285** Posted **Jul 31, 2018, 6:04 PM**

I know this situation exists, but I wonder what is in it for the provincial governments, who are the true overseers of the university system in Canada? Do they allow it because it requires them to lay out less cash in order to fund universities?

(BTW, as usual the situation is slightly different in Quebec, where an agreement with France allows students from either place to study in the other place and pay the same fees as locals. So it's actually cheaper for someone from Paris to study in Montreal than it is for someone from Toronto to do so. The end result is that over a third and maybe close to 40% of the foreign students in Quebec are from France.)

le calmar · #**286** Posted **Jul 31, 2018, 6:17 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack

(BTW, as usual the situation is slightly different in Quebec, where an agreement with France allows students from either place to study in the other place and pay the same fees as locals. So it's actually cheaper for someone from Paris to study in Montreal than it is for someone from Toronto to do so. The end result is that over a third and maybe close to 40% of the foreign students in Quebec are from France.)

Is it still the case? I know it is true for Quebec students going to France (I took advantage of that myself), but I think this agreement is not valid the other way around anymore. Or at least, the Quebec government intended to end it.

Edit: https://ici.radio-canada.ca/nouvelle...c-france.shtml

someone123 · #**287** Posted **Jul 31, 2018, 6:22 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack

I know this situation exists, but I wonder what is in it for the provincial governments, who are the true overseers of the university system in Canada? Do they allow it because it requires them to lay out less cash in order to fund universities?

I don't really know but it seems plausible. It also feels like a bit of a strange shell game where a few of the supposed advantages cancel each other out. If I had to hazard a guess I would say that the provincial government direction is a bit of a mess and the system is being run based on special interests and inertia.

For example we get skilled graduate immigrants out of our foreign student programs, sure, but this comes at the expense of rejecting domestic students from increasingly competitive programs. This is OK if they "grow the pie", but a lot of our industries in Canada are uncompetitive fixed-size-pie deals. Note that we also have employment equity legislation that includes visible minorities, including immigrants, not just disadvantaged domestic groups. So if you're a poor non-visible-minority graduate who works through university you are considered privileged over a foreign student with millionaire parents who bought you a mansion to live in while you go to school.

We save money by accepting foreign students but we also get less value out of the system because foreign students are more likely to leave once they graduate. It's pretty common for Chinese graduates to find that they have better employment prospects in China than in Canada now for example. Maybe this is fine if we operate for profit foreign student programs but we have a kind of unholy marriage of public and private programs in our public postsecondary institutions. We also have a lot of people with PR who qualify for the domestic tuition rates.

Acajack · #**288** Posted **Jul 31, 2018, 6:23 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by le calmar

Is it still the case? I know it is true for Quebec students going to France (I took advantage of that myself), but I think this agreement is not valid the other way around anymore. Or at least, the Quebec government intended to end it.

You're right. It was changed a couple of years ago. French students still pay less than those from most other foreign countries, but it's about the same as what Canadians from the other provinces pay. Reductions were also extended to students from other Francophonie students like Belgian francophones. Sharing the wealth I guess after favouring France for so long.

Apparently after the change was made the number of French students here dropped, but if you walk around any university campus or areas frequented by students, there is still no shortage of them.

le calmar · #**289** Posted **Jul 31, 2018, 6:25 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack

You're right. It was changed a couple of years ago. French students still pay less than those from most other foreign countries, but it's about the same as what Canadians from the other provinces pay. Reductions were also extended to students from other Francophonie students like Belgian francophones. Sharing the wealth I guess after favouring France for so long.

Apparently after the change was made the number of French students here dropped, but if you walk around any university campus or areas frequented by students, there is still no shortage of them.

Apparently the agreement is still valid for grad and PhD students going to Quebec (who still pay the same as what Quebec students pay).

On another note, I received approximately 150 euros per month from the French (not Quebec) government to help pay my rent. The Quebec government certainly don't give French students any money when they come here.

Acajack · #**290** Posted **Jul 31, 2018, 6:29 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by le calmar

Is it still the case? I know it is true for Quebec students going to France (I took advantage of that myself),

Wouldn't tuition in France have been almost free for you then?

le calmar · #**291** Posted **Jul 31, 2018, 6:33 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack

Wouldn't tuition in France have been almost free for you then?

The tuition fees for my Masters were equivalent to what Cégep students pay in Quebec, so close enough (350$ per year if I remember correctly).

someone123 · #**292** Posted **Jul 31, 2018, 6:39 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drybrain

Halifax: I disagree here, I think it does feel larger than it is, especially in the past few years. Probably not compared to European cities, but definitely compared to comparable North American (and especially Canadian) cities. It’s been undergoing a smaller-scale version of Toronto’s graduation to a new plateau.

"Feels larger" is subjective. European cities tend to have more street life and larger areas of medium density pedestrian-oriented development. Then again, Halifax has 300,000 square foot suburban stores with variety that knocks the socks off of what you can find in most similar European cities. It also has direct flights to probably a dozen different countries, on par with typical European metropolitan areas with a million people or more. Last week the Pride parade in Halifax had over 150,000 attendees (i.e. closer in scale to Amsterdam Pride than most cities of 400,000). Halifax has a larger airport and events with hundreds of thousands of attendees because it's a regional centre for around 2 million people.

You might care more or less about these different things but they could all count toward a city feeling larger or smaller.

I think the events matter a lot to many people because rather than living in the busiest areas they tend to pick maybe a dozen weekends a year to go and do downtown stuff. Tourists also plan their visits around events if they exist.

Quote:

This summer has been great in Halifax—neighbourhoods that in years past were mostly sleepy are packed in the evenings, downtown and Spring Garden Road are thronged, many (certainly not all) of the new developments being built are huge improvements to the urban environment and creating both more residential density and more of textured and interesting visual environment. Many of the farther-flung bits of the peninsula feel more connected to the gravity of the city centre, and are building up small nodes of mixed-use development, both new and renovations of older buildings, that are creating the feel of a more contiguous urban environment across the peninsula.

The city is changing quickly, and is still a big construction site. Barrington might not seem that impressive for example but it's maybe 1/3 construction site right now. Imagine what it will be like when those new buildings are full of tenants instead of empty.

It's never going to be a giant metropolis but Halifax definitely adds to the mix of decently vibrant Canadian cities. It has a different feel from every other Canadian city because it is the closest thing to a major Atlantic city that Canada has. Canadians are all better off if there's a wider range of options to choose from.

Quote:

Totally concur about the heritage losses. The specific ones you mentioned (the pitiful state of Young Avenue, and the Spring Garden Road block torn down for a fairly generic new development) are absolute unnecessary and lamentable.

It sucks because while the city is doing well it could have done better. I don't really like the Doyle Block but imagine if it were simply shifted over and the main Spring Garden Road stretch expanded by 0.5 blocks while retaining the old buildings that were there. That would have been a much better outcome.

I like the Roy but think of how much better Barrington would have been if the Roy ended up replacing a parking lot or 2 storey building instead of a 6 storey building.

Acajack · #**293** Posted **Jul 31, 2018, 6:42 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by le calmar

The tuition fees for my Masters were equivalent to what Cégep students pay in Quebec, so close enough (350$ per year if I remember correctly).

Bordel de merde!

Capsicum · #**294** Posted **Aug 1, 2018, 2:26 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack

I know this situation exists, but I wonder what is in it for the provincial governments, who are the true overseers of the university system in Canada? Do they allow it because it requires them to lay out less cash in order to fund universities?

(BTW, as usual the situation is slightly different in Quebec, where an agreement with France allows students from either place to study in the other place and pay the same fees as locals. So it's actually cheaper for someone from Paris to study in Montreal than it is for someone from Toronto to do so. The end result is that over a third and maybe close to 40% of the foreign students in Quebec are from France.)

If the Francophonie is now a rising proportion, if not the main source of Quebec's international students, are Americans less and less likely to study in Quebec? I find it still notable how McGill still continues to be Americans' top desired Canadian school.

The rising influence of the Francophonie and the diminishing of the Anglo bubble still has not diminished young Americans' preference for McGill and ability to live the student life without interacting with the Francophones?

But again, Anglo Canada's other schools don't seem to attract Americans in large numbers. They attract Chinese, Indians etc. but few Americans. What's the reason?

Quote:

Originally Posted by someone123

Note that we also have employment equity legislation that includes visible minorities, including immigrants, not just disadvantaged domestic groups. So if you're a poor non-visible-minority graduate who works through university you are considered privileged over a foreign student with millionaire parents who bought you a mansion to live in while you go to school.

Wait, are non-citizens or non-permanent residents able to benefit from employment equity policies? I thought it applied only for Canadians not foreign students?

I'd assume that'd be how it works for most countries that have "affirmative action" for domestic minorities. For instance, if it were the US, I can't imagine that someone from Nigeria who lived stateside one or two years as an international student, or even say a Black Canadian studying abroad, is eligible for affirmative action that was meant to be for African Americans.

someone123 · #**295** Posted **Aug 1, 2018, 3:17 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Capsicum

Wait, are non-citizens or non-permanent residents able to benefit from employment equity policies? I thought it applied only for Canadians not foreign students?

This could be split off in its own thread but I don't think it depends on PR or citizenship status, although some jobs might require PR or citizenship. Some federally regulated industries (not just classic civil servants) are included too and they don't necessarily require citizenship or PR. Some private companies voluntarily follow similar rules.

Quote:

I'd assume that'd be how it works for most countries that have "affirmative action" for domestic minorities. For instance, if it were the US, I can't imagine that someone from Nigeria who lived stateside one or two years as an international student, or even say a Black Canadian studying abroad, is eligible for affirmative action that was meant to be for African Americans.

It depends but I don't think this is even close to universally true and it is a bit awkward. In a lot of places employers can't compel you to disclose information on your background. I don't know what happens in Canada or the US if you just tick off visible minority/African American or something similar on a form and your prospective employer doesn't believe you.

(Not really intending to pass judgement one way or the other on all of this, but I do think some of these interactions are unintended and a bit odd. I also don't agree that you can tell who has had more or less of a leg up in the job world merely by knowing their ethnic background!)

saffronleaf · #**296** Posted **Aug 1, 2018, 4:34 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Capsicum

Wait, are non-citizens or non-permanent residents able to benefit from employment equity policies? I thought it applied only for Canadians not foreign students?

I'd assume that'd be how it works for most countries that have "affirmative action" for domestic minorities. For instance, if it were the US, I can't imagine that someone from Nigeria who lived stateside one or two years as an international student, or even say a Black Canadian studying abroad, is eligible for affirmative action that was meant to be for African Americans.

In the US, it counts in some respects for non-citizen / non-permanent residents.

I'm a Canadian citizen but of South Asian ancestry. Worked in the US for 1 year on a student visa (lawfully) and for 2 years on a NAFTA temporary worker visa.

My previous law firm disclosed demographic stats for a variety of reasons.

To participate in NALP (this service that connects law students with law firms for jobs), they need to disclose their demographic stats. I count in that as 'diverse'.

A few of my previous law firm's clients have rules in place about who their vendors can be. As part of that, they require vendors to have diversity and share demographic data. Everyone wanted me on matters in part because my name could be submitted and I'd count toward the diversity requirements of the client.

In some of their marketing materials, I'd be on there simply because I was 'diverse'.

So at least as far as employment is concerned, I think it counts in some cases. In some respects, I can understand why.

kool maudit · #**297** Posted **Aug 1, 2018, 7:13 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack

What this has to do with this thread is that perhaps our friend kool maudit has grown a bit attached to Northern European "finish", order, shiny-ness and societal predictability. Which is likely a big part of why he finds Toronto more appealling than he thought he would.

Looking back at this thread and my trip, my reaction to the two cities was extreme. I think there were a few 'perfect storm'-type factors that diminished Montreal's ability make an impression, and aided Toronto's.

I also think that there is a real issue afoot with Montreal's ability to consistently support its main commercial arteries (perhaps the smaller middle class you mentioned?).

Beyond that, though, I think you are on to something. In all my years of living in Montreal, I had never measured it against Stockholm and Copenhagen. Those cities weren't part of my life then.

Prior to going back, I think that I just assumed that Montreal's larger size meant that the city would easily exceed either Scandinavian capital in most/all measures of urban vitality.

Despite the smaller size of its metro, though, there are a lot of factors that make a place like Stockholm 'weighty' in an urban sense. The headquarters of the big Swedish firms, the central bank and stock exchange, the palaces, the embassies, the large airport – it's the capital of a very wealthy and advanced country and they have been building it for nearly 1,000 years. It is also the country's unchallenged primate city.

It was a bit early-SSP of me to assume that Montreal would so easily outcompete a city like this by mere virtue of population. In an overall sense, Montreal is a peer to these cities and not a 'step above'.

Acajack · #**298** Posted **Aug 1, 2018, 10:55 AM**

That's why I think The Question of Separatism by Jane Jacobs is such a good read. I alluded to it earlier in the thread.

It's not really a Quebec vs. Canada political book. It's more a metropolis-building book, in spite of the title.

mistercorporate · #**299** Posted **Aug 1, 2018, 1:01 PM**

More about the French language university in Toronto: https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/new...ticle36110367/

There's a lot of info on the project on UT, not sure if I'm allowed to link to that site here. Basically, it's going to be built on Toronto's East Bayfront, among the other new developments, and it will also house another French college and media organization, making it a sort of French hub for the GTA. Most of the students will be coming from Toronto, London and Windsor apparently, along with international students from the Francophonie.

kwoldtimer · #**300** Posted **Aug 1, 2018, 1:40 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

More about the French language university in Toronto: https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/new...ticle36110367/

There's a lot of info on the project on UT, not sure if I'm allowed to link to that site here. Basically, it's going to be built on Toronto's East Bayfront, among the other new developments, and it will also house another French college and media organization, making it a sort of French hub for the GTA. Most of the students will be coming from Toronto, London and Windsor apparently, along with international students from the Francophonie.

Exciting location for them (if DoFo doesn't cancel the plan!). Interesting idea as well to co-locate other francophone institutions.