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  #41  
Old Posted Oct 3, 2009, 6:31 AM
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Michi Michi is offline
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I've pretty much accepted the fact that the Michigan Central Station will not ever be repaired. It's not practical and the American dollar, steered by American people will never allocate enough of it. Especially, as we move forward in this country without a banking model that is capitalistic in nature. Even if we did, the contiguous fabric of Detroit is lost on so many minds of powerful decision makers with the ability to commit to renovating the MCS. I just don't believe it will ever happen.

As I watch Detroit, try to understand it's history, witness how present-day efforts attempt to sustain, as well as foresee where these efforts will take it in the future, I believe two major commitments, in addition to the commitments we are already making will help bring life back to Detroit.

They are
1) A commitment to mobility. Not just any mobility, but one that begins at the river (the core) and serves as a backbone to civilization-building along its routes and corridors. It must be something other than an automobile (bus included).

2) Corporate investment. To me, this is incredibly profound and something that isn't talked about enough. All we ever do is study Detroit and what went wrong, trying to paint pictures with facts and numbers and experiences. One that has ever really been disected is region-wide jobs. Let me explain...

There's over a trillion documents and articles written about Detroit's fall from grace. We always talk about how the people left and so did the jobs and that there's no employment in Detroit anymore and so therefore Michigan suffers and the city has no one to pay its bills...this is how we always talk about it as if it's the truth...I believe it is only partially true. The people never left. They're still here. They're in Detroit...they're in the Auburn Hills section of Detroit, the Novi section of Detroit, the Macomb section of Detroit, the Howell section of Detroit, the Canton section of Detroit, the Birmingham section of Detroit. Where are the jobs? The Auburn Hills section of Detroit, the Novi section of Detroit, the Macomb section of Detroit, the Howell section of Detroit, the Canton section of Detroit, the Birmingham section of Detroit... have I made my point?

Now, all this decade-long fact finding mission full of recommendations, solutions, best practices and projections is GREAT and it explains why Detroit is such an undesirable place to live for the average person. I think we've all mastered that concept. But when you look at Detroit as a region without boundaries, NO ONE HAS EVER LEFT!!! In fact, we (for the most part) have ALWAYS GROWN! Hmmmm...We've regularly been competitive on lists for job retention and growth, and have ranked on lists of great communities (those suburbs that are actually "communities".

So, the question I pose is, WHY HAVE WE NEGLECTED TO REVEAL THIS FACT ABOUT DETROIT? Is it because when we talk about it, we aren't confining our intellect to the city limit boundaries of the city proper? I think that's unfair and doesn't address the reality of what is really at work here.

What if...what if all the office parks in the region, all of the office jobs and manufacturing jobs and business in the region (those that can relocate to other parts of the country) all moved to within the city limits of Detroit? What if they were strategically placed in pockets or nodes throughout the city, like say, downtown, along the east riverfront, Midtown, New Center, Highland Park, Livernois & 7 Mile, and 8 Mile/Woodward? What would our city look like? Ok, so that's not practical, but what if 50% of all the employment of the region committed to Detroit? 40%, 30%, 20%???

My point is, I think we would have a different looking city and region, and it would be different for the better. How do we attract employment to commit to the city? I don't think we do. Even incentives aren't the be all end all (heck even GM is moving a large # of employees out of the Ren Cen towers). Incentives don't do it, otherwise we would see an influx of employment coming to the city. I think the corporate commitment in the region is to stay out of Detroit, much like real estate steering keeps newcomers to the region out of Detroit. It's just something you subconsciously avoid, maybe because so much of the status quo exists in a suburban format.

So, if we now change the conversation from one that is almost purely capitalistic in nature (that of business and the corporate world which we now realize does not chose to be in the city even though it is still in "Detroit") and talk about a collaborative effort between this sector and the public one, we may be able to convince ourselves that we can plant the seeds of a civilization in Detroit to make it a place that the capitalist world wants to be a part of as well as the private citizen.

People live near where they work, at least as a generalized statement. Detroit has a huge problem of job sprawl and I believe a system that has always been under the influence of social divide since the 1960s. We've consciously designed the way this metropolitan system functions, and of course, through all our reading, research, study and experiences, we know it's a failed system. Who loses? Detroit proper first and foremost, but ultimately the region does. The employment is still there, it's a lie to stay jobs left Detroit. That lie is just part of the system we've created for ourselves to our liking...I guess when I say "our" I mean the socially acceptable people among the human race (that's a whole other discussion for sure).

But what if for once we thought of the central city as a part of the status quo and treated it not like the suburb that we're so comfortable with and use to, but rather a safe, well rounded, functioning city COMMUNITY that can compete with all other cities throughout the country? Because, right now all we have competing against other American cities is Detroit's suburbs...because after all, they are Detroit and Detroit is them...again, it's the Detroit system we've created. I repeat, the jobs aren't gone, the growth hasn't necessarily stopped, even though we focus on the fact Detroit looses 15,000 people each year, which by the way all people will have left Detroit in about 60 years if that doesn't change. By then, will the bottom fall out on the rest of Detroit? That being the Detroit that doesn't include the city proper boundaries? Because, I mean, someone's going to have to be accountable for the city at some point, and I don't think the state of Michigan is going to adopt the burdon of a geographical area the size of Atlanta with zero people in it, which once was the 4th largest city in the world's most prosperous nation.

I could go on forever trying to prove my point, which I probably didn't do a very good job doing, but I'm going to finish by simply restating...

1) Mobilize this region by bringing people back to the nucleus. This must be done strategically and permanently by way of a plan that will attract citizens as they make the personal decision to reside in Detroit.

2) The corporate/capitalist world has a new responsibility of locating in the city limits like every other city in the world. Sure, we'll always have suburban job existence (that's just America). But, the fact is, jobs don't exist in Detroit, we all know that. But the fact also is jobs DO exist in Detroit, they just aren't in the part that we talk about, study, experience, predict, understand, etc...

So, now what? :-) Who wants to be the first to piss off suburbanites? Who wants to be the first one to force them to think of something other than their 3-car garage on one side of the fence and a burned down neighborhood on the other? Who's going to ask, "what are we going to do about it?" because you know darn well, the ears that you ask this to don't believe they are part of any problem. They are perfectly happy where they're at.

Last edited by Michi; Oct 3, 2009 at 6:41 AM.
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  #42  
Old Posted Oct 3, 2009, 9:39 PM
subterranean subterranean is offline
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Mobility means nothing because it leaves out value destinations. Transportation is a derived demand because you do not consume it for the sake of itself, you consume it in order to access places. And with that logic comes the need for accessibility over mobility. Mobility is a part of the equation, but it means nothing without access to value destinations, which is more than mere jobs. You need access to jobs, sure, but you also need access to goods and services, such as groceries. So instead of plopping lightrail in places for the suburban weekenders to use, we need a comprehensive network that links people to jobs and other necessities. And in order to have this comprehensive network, a city needs to sustain a certain level of density in order for that network to even be viable. So ultimately we're talking about the sheer size of the city versus the amount of inhabitants. To paraphrase Time Magazine, many neighborhoods in Detroit look worse than a boxer's mouth. Relocating people and consolidating land is the only viable way in which this city can regain a footing as a livable place. I don't care what you do with the consolidated land. Make it a forest, revert it to farm land, put in wind farms, or put a 40 foot wall around it. Just get people closer together so access can be increased and we can all evolve and get this thing done. Jobs and mobility aren't going to do it on their own.

And I leave you with something to chew on:

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  #43  
Old Posted Oct 3, 2009, 10:39 PM
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Ah, I'm pretty sure access is the same thing as mobility. What do you think goods and services are? They're jobs.

And like I said in my last post, the "jobs and necessities" (the free market) has CHOSEN not to reside in Detroit. How do you make it reside in Detroit? You can give it all the incentive in the world and basically make it free, but then it wouldn't be the free market, it would be socialized.

I get your point about playing musical people and closing off parts of the city. I think that may actually happen in some small cases, but for the most part, that liability is spread too thin and would be extrememly costly. Plus, relocating people wouldn't guarantee those people to stay in Detroit anyway. So, I disagree that we're only talking about the size of the city vs the number of inhabitants. Under that logic, you would just continue to downsize the size based on an ever shrinking population without ever really doing anything to sustain or attract new people.

And, I stand by what I said before that jobs and mobility ("accessibility" if you don't like mobility) will do it alone. Those are two things that have been left out of the Detroit equation for years. I like to think of Detroit as an ice berg. The city proper is the tip that you can see sticking out of the ocean. The water surface level is 8 Mile Road and the suburban belly is the monstrocity that lies underneath. It's all there in one big piece, it's one and the same. It's just that they are treated as two different things.

So, we can continue to talk about what to do with Detroit, even though the main stream population isn't lining up at the door to move in. On the other hand, I think corporations, businesses and other forms of jobs should be making decisions to bring back the metro area to its core. Residential-wise it hasn't happened, and business-wise it hasn't happened. Business will be back before residential, but it has to chose to do so. And that's where my second point of mobility (accessibility) comes into play. Accessiblity is the public-private partnership that will provide the backbone of the commitment that commercial and residential private decisions to be back in Detroit. The model would be a design of sustainability and directly link to areas beyond...like the airport, zoo, and other nodes of activity. But without people making these decisions, we'll just have another 50 years of status quo Detroit and lots to talk about and decode.
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  #44  
Old Posted Oct 4, 2009, 7:23 AM
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Originally Posted by subterranean View Post
Mobility means nothing because it leaves out value destinations. Transportation is a derived demand because you do not consume it for the sake of itself, you consume it in order to access places. And with that logic comes the need for accessibility over mobility. Mobility is a part of the equation, but it means nothing without access to value destinations, which is more than mere jobs. You need access to jobs, sure, but you also need access to goods and services, such as groceries. So instead of plopping lightrail in places for the suburban weekenders to use, we need a comprehensive network that links people to jobs and other necessities. And in order to have this comprehensive network, a city needs to sustain a certain level of density in order for that network to even be viable. So ultimately we're talking about the sheer size of the city versus the amount of inhabitants. To paraphrase Time Magazine, many neighborhoods in Detroit look worse than a boxer's mouth. Relocating people and consolidating land is the only viable way in which this city can regain a footing as a livable place. I don't care what you do with the consolidated land. Make it a forest, revert it to farm land, put in wind farms, or put a 40 foot wall around it. Just get people closer together so access can be increased and we can all evolve and get this thing done. Jobs and mobility aren't going to do it on their own.


I just had to say, Oh man, I feel I'm back in *that particular* transportation class. Of course all your points are absolutely true.

Shame I only use public transit at the moment to get out to my car lol.
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  #45  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2009, 7:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Hayward View Post
I just had to say, Oh man, I feel I'm back in *that particular* transportation class. Of course all your points are absolutely true.

Shame I only use public transit at the moment to get out to my car lol.
Ha. I had a feeling you might find this to your liking.

Where are you and where is your car? I'm thinking about buying a Buick, actually. They suit my personality.
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  #46  
Old Posted Oct 9, 2009, 3:19 AM
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The problem with these ideas is that suburbanites do not have a problem with the current setup of the metro area. In fact, they like it! If they didn't, they would have left the region.

My parents, who live in Oakland County, LOVE their lifestyle. Yes, they are worried about the economy, but they wouldn't change a thing about where they live (Birmingham area).

And no, they aren't yokels, bigots, or anti-urban. They have lived in apartments in big cities. But they love their current lifestyle.
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  #47  
Old Posted Oct 9, 2009, 4:25 AM
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Ha. I had a feeling you might find this to your liking.

Where are you and where is your car? I'm thinking about buying a Buick, actually. They suit my personality.
I live in downtown Chicago about a block from the John Hancock Tower but I keep my car up at Howard Station. I usually only drive it when I head back to Michigan or need to make a trip out to the burbs. I have '96 Chevy Pickup and my friends probably drive it more than I do to move stuff.
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  #48  
Old Posted Nov 25, 2009, 10:38 PM
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gm or ford....

What happens if you dont drive a ford or gm there? Do you get shot? lol I really hope the best for Detroit. I have never seen so much empty space in the middle of a city in my life!
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  #49  
Old Posted Nov 25, 2009, 11:34 PM
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^ Nothing. Detroit is very different from say Flint. Lots of people drive foreign cars in Detroit, and many foreign automakers maintain a presence in the area.

Now Flint and Saginaw it's mostly GM. Mall parking lots are full of them and a civic or corolla would look out of place
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  #50  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2009, 12:05 AM
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Wow impressive, never knew Detroit has such awsome architecture.
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  #51  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2009, 5:48 AM
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What happens if you dont drive a ford or gm there? Do you get shot? lol I really hope the best for Detroit. I have never seen so much empty space in the middle of a city in my life!
What are you from 1970? Toyota, Hyundai, and Nissan all have tech centers in the metro and until recently VW had their NA headquarters in the metro. You'd be surprised how many foreign cars you'll see around, especially in northern Oakland County. It's certainly not California or Florida, though.
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  #52  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2009, 6:58 PM
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What are you from 1970? Toyota, Hyundai, and Nissan all have tech centers in the metro and until recently VW had their NA headquarters in the metro. You'd be surprised how many foreign cars you'll see around, especially in northern Oakland County. It's certainly not California or Florida, though.
haha. I was just stating what I saw in every picture. I tried to find something that was not a ford or gm and it was a hard task. Anyways, yes, Detroit does have som amazing buildings....wow. I think it will be a really beautiful city once all of the downtown revitalization is complete.
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  #53  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2009, 7:14 PM
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What are you from 1970? Toyota, Hyundai, and Nissan all have tech centers in the metro and until recently VW had their NA headquarters in the metro. You'd be surprised how many foreign cars you'll see around, especially in northern Oakland County. It's certainly not California or Florida, though.
I don't know dude, there are certainly places where your car might get keyed if it isn't American although with all the outsourcing, it's almost a given all cars are imports in some way
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  #54  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2009, 12:08 AM
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I don't know dude, there are certainly places where your car might get keyed if it isn't American although with all the outsourcing, it's almost a given all cars are imports in some way
It's not that bad anymore, I guess back in the '80's it was harsh as you would be supporting a competitor but with the recent mergers and interest the big 3 have in other car companies not a big deal it's just cheaper and easier to buy and get a Detroit car fixed.

The thing is other cities have, it seems, they have areas for all types of lifestyles, bike lanes, mass transit, high rises, single family homes and green grass suburbs.

Archer had some good ideas and got things rolling but the city council and the suburbs just can't agree to even disagree so it's been a stalemate for decades, and places like Howell, Canton, Holly, are not even close enough to really be considered in the metro area it's old farm land, people want a rural life style not condos and traffic.
For anyone that wants live in a real city they leave, no offense to the CBD and Midtown/University area I lived there for a few years, but it if wasn't for Wayne state there'd be no young people walking around.

Sorry Detroit I love 'ya but I had to leave 'ya.
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  #55  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2009, 4:03 AM
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Now Flint and Saginaw it's mostly GM. Mall parking lots are full of them and a civic or corolla would look out of place

Can't speak for Saginaw since I rarely go there, but that is definitely NOT the case in Flint anymore. There are a fair amount of Toyota, Kia, Honda, Hyundai (insert any foreign car brand) cars driving around. Obviously GM is still the dominant brand, followed by Ford and Chrysler.
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  #56  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2009, 6:01 AM
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That's not what I saw at the genesee valley center back in august. Though I no longer live in Michigan so I'll let people trust your word over mine.
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  #57  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2009, 8:42 AM
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To be sure, because this was actually studied and measured, not many years ago, but Flint was the metro with the highest domestic-brand ownership by far. I'm sure it's changing, but it was so far ahead of other metros in domestic-brand ownership it really wouldn't change the ranking. Maybe, I'll be able to find the study, somewhere...

BTW, the keying thing wasn't even prevelant during the 80's. It most certainly wouldn't be more than you'd find anywhere else in the country, right now (i.e. it's not a pattern, that is to say that it's doesn't happen enough nor by some group for it to be called a pattern). I don't even know why that was brought up. It's probably something that couldn't even be classified as a pattern, back then.
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  #58  
Old Posted Dec 4, 2009, 1:17 AM
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I see Hondas, Kias, Hyundais, and Nissans everwhere I go. While Toyota still has a bit of a stigma in some parts, it's still not as rare as you'd expect. Granted, I don't live in Warren or Pontiac, maybe opinions are a bit different in those cities.

Granted, you would expect the home market of the Big 3 to be primarily Big 3, especially with the easy availability of employee discounts. And even then, I think most people in Michigan aren't the types who will buy a foreign car just because they think its better.
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  #59  
Old Posted Dec 4, 2009, 12:54 PM
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I see Hondas, Kias, Hyundais, and Nissans everwhere I go. While Toyota still has a bit of a stigma in some parts, it's still not as rare as you'd expect. Granted, I don't live in Warren or Pontiac, maybe opinions are a bit different in those cities.

Granted, you would expect the home market of the Big 3 to be primarily Big 3, especially with the easy availability of employee discounts. And even then, I think most people in Michigan aren't the types who will buy a foreign car just because they think its better.

I just bought a new(er) car and I was wanting a Subaru. Well, between the cost and the things I've heard from friends who own them, I ended up going with a Ford Fusion. And I swore that I would never buy an American car. Consumer reports told me it was a good buy!
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  #60  
Old Posted Dec 4, 2009, 5:15 PM
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The problem with these ideas is that suburbanites do not have a problem with the current setup of the metro area. In fact, they like it! If they didn't, they would have left the region.

My parents, who live in Oakland County, LOVE their lifestyle. Yes, they are worried about the economy, but they wouldn't change a thing about where they live (Birmingham area).

And no, they aren't yokels, bigots, or anti-urban. They have lived in apartments in big cities. But they love their current lifestyle.
The key to Detroit's growth in the future isn't bringing people from the burbs back to the city, it's attracting businesses and young professionals to the core city. This is already starting to happen in the more well-maintained neighborhoods like Woodbridge and North Corktown, where recent college graduates are buying homes.

The development of public transportation could be the necessary catalyst for the city's recovery. If public transportation (both within the city and to/from the suburbs) becomes a more viable option through the addition of light rail and commuter trains, corporate businesses will be more attracted to downtown. Many of the beautiful buildings in the CBD are being limited in occupancy by available parking. If that was no longer a concern (the old streetcar system was the reason most of those buildings don't have dedicated parking structures) those buildings would become more competitive with the office space available in the suburbs.
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