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  #4941  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2014, 2:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Pistola916 View Post
^
The Towers was an overly ambitious project but having that many soft deposits, why didn't they gone with building one tower?
Because many involved were not willing to accept defeat...and defeat meant anything but the full project...once the economy started fumbling, CALPERS pulled back and that was, basically, the death knell.
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  #4942  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2014, 7:19 AM
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Originally Posted by creamcityleo79 View Post
Because many involved were not willing to accept defeat...and defeat meant anything but the full project...once the economy started fumbling, CALPERS pulled back and that was, basically, the death knell.
Im glad they didnt built those 90s looking boxy towers
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  #4943  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2014, 8:19 PM
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Originally Posted by v.o.r.t.e.x View Post
Im glad they didnt built those 90s looking boxy towers
"90s looking boxy towers > a hole in the ground. My feeling when the project was still and play and now is that nothing great gets built without ambition. That usually comes in the face of people telling you you shouldn't do it. So, I find nothing wrong with the project, except it would have been better if he got one tower built and waited out the economy for the second.

I hope that in the future someone has the ambition to build something higher than 25 stories. For whatever reason, everyone loses their minds when something higher than that is proposed. This is why Sacramento can't have nice things. Too many folks saying we "can't" do it.
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  #4944  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2014, 4:05 AM
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Originally Posted by NME22 View Post
"90s looking boxy towers > a hole in the ground. My feeling when the project was still and play and now is that nothing great gets built without ambition. That usually comes in the face of people telling you you shouldn't do it. So, I find nothing wrong with the project, except it would have been better if he got one tower built and waited out the economy for the second.

I hope that in the future someone has the ambition to build something higher than 25 stories. For whatever reason, everyone loses their minds when something higher than that is proposed. This is why Sacramento can't have nice things. Too many folks saying we "can't" do it.

Yes we do have the naysayers or the 'cant do crowd'. But we also have a lot of people who want a vibrant city who may differ on some aspects on how we get there. Some of the most vibrant modern cities on the planet though aren't necessarily defined by the height of their skylines alone but by their transportation, academics, architecture, waterfronts, history, cuisine, and even sports and sporting venues. We have one of the busiest rail stations in the nation; we finally have a beautiful airport that we can be proud of that is both functional and recognized nationally; our region is finally embracing both our Gold Rush history and our agricultural surroundings have helped turn our "Farm to Fork" campaign into a source of pride in how we look at ourselves imo. There will be taller buildings in our future most likely, but there's nothing wrong with 25 story residential towers downtown. Heck, any residential adds to the vibrancy on the streets and that's what will continue the domino effect of getting more housing built.
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  #4945  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2014, 4:13 AM
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Originally Posted by v.o.r.t.e.x View Post
Im glad they didnt built those 90s looking boxy towers
Had those towers been built, Westfield would never have sold the mall to JMA and we wouldn't be getting a new arena at the Downtown Plaza location. It could have worked in the rail yards but not as well as DTP. More empty parcels have the chance to be developed with the arena being constructed at 600k street plus it leaves more room for the intermodal facility.
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  #4946  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2014, 11:38 AM
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Interesting point, Urban.


A few things I've been thinking about...

Soft (Refundable) deposits are not the same as Non-Refundable deposits. I'm not sure Saca had over 50% COMMITMENT from potential condo buyers.

I don't think that skepticism on the part of a council member or two (I don't remember any) had significant effect on the bank's and CalPERS's decision to withhold financing on the Towers.

Also, one should remember that just because a project gets off the ground, doesn't mean it will be a success. The L Street Lofts property was foreclosed on, and it had to be converted to rental units. I'm not sure if those units are even 100% occupied at this point. The L Street Lofts had about 1/10 the condo units as the Towers On Crapitol Mall did, by the way.

Additionally, I remember reading about a number of condo projects that were left unfinished due to the economic downturn. I'm not sure a half-built development is any more a success than a hole in the ground. Besides, the City agreed to subsidize the hotel portion of the development. It would have been horrible if the city ended up losing those millions of dollars. Consequently, it may not have the gravitas it has currently to subsidize the new ESC. I'm glad (for the City's sake) the Towers didn't get far enough to unlock the city subsidy. (Speculation on my part, but something to think about.)

I imagine those who were depending on the equity in their "current" homes to help pay for their condos are counting their blessings that their soft and non-refundable deposits were returned after the project was canceled. Had the project been just 6 months ahead and actually completed (as some are suggesting) and the residents were obligated to eat those deposits, that could have really hurt a lot of people financially. (Again, speculation on my part.)

When things don't work out, we tend to blame evil forces (NIMBYs and Mayor Fargo) instead of considering reality. "If Sacramento just had a "can do" attitude, we would be a world class city." I'm sorry, but Sacramento is (or was) not the kind of market to support 850 high-end condos and a 5-star hotel. There is nothing wrong with pushing the envelope and trying to grow bigger, but you need a solid foundation from which to make that push. Those smaller towers (Bridgeway, etc.) on the "super block" were built 30+ years ago and represent tallest housing in Sacramento. That's not saying much. Additionally, I think they were built as rental units (one may have been converted to condos a few years back, however). Maybe this current proposal is a good springboard for taller high rise housing. It appears to be a phased development with a high proportion of rental housing. We'll see.
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  #4947  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2014, 4:31 PM
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Excellent news!

City Planning Commission gives McKinley Village a green light

http://www.bizjournals.com/sacrament...tml?ana=e_vert
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  #4948  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2014, 4:33 PM
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On a side note, did anyone else see Rob Turner's (Sactown editor and former Skyscraperpage Forumer, SactownRob) "vision" article about "plussing" (Disney term) Old Sacramento? LOVED IT!!!

Turner: With arena to rise, Old Sacramento has chance to shine like never before

http://www.sacbee.com/2014/03/30/627...rise-old.html#

Last edited by creamcityleo79; Mar 31, 2014 at 4:35 PM. Reason: added link to article
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  #4949  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2014, 6:44 PM
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Originally Posted by creamcityleo79 View Post
On a side note, did anyone else see Rob Turner's (Sactown editor and former Skyscraperpage Forumer, SactownRob) "vision" article about "plussing" (Disney term) Old Sacramento? LOVED IT!!!

Turner: With arena to rise, Old Sacramento has chance to shine like never before

http://www.sacbee.com/2014/03/30/627...rise-old.html#
With all due respect, I find most of Rob Turner's "cut and paste" ideas, uninspired rip-offs. His ideas about what to do with Old Sacramento are no different and is IMO completely in the wrong direction. He rightly see the district in it's current state as sort of poor-man's Disneyland, however, his solution is not to re-integrate the district into the fabric of the central city, rather it is to make it more Disneyesque, more touristy and more disconnected. Frankly it's a silly and horrible idea. Unfortunately, too many in Sacramento lack the understanding of what makes good urban places and will listen to this guy. I think we should go in the opposite direction. We need to make Old Sacramento more appealing and accessible to the residents of the central city rather than making more appealing to people from Roseville and Yuba City.

We (City/Council district and Old Sacramento BID) need to make some basic infrastructure improvements first! Start with a sound wall and screen alongside the freeway; create more attractive and safer walkways and bikeways connecting OS with the Capitol Mall and the Downtown Plaza; replace the badly deteriorated and unsafe wooden riverfront boardwalk with a permanent concrete one; allow restaurants to build wood decks out from the sidewalks so they can have comfortable sidewalk dining (ala the MARRS Building in Midtown); and finally, but not least, we need to add street trees -irregularly spaced, planted in wells directly into the sides of the streets between the cars (as was done in Dwtn Lodi). Not into the wooden sidewalks which would run into the basements.

We are the City of Trees and there's no reason Old Sac should be exempt from the benefits of trees just because it wouldn't be "authentic" in some people's eyes. Street trees would be the single greatest improvement to Old Sacramento. Trees would provide more shade, add beauty, reduce noise and dust, slow traffic, and make Old Sacramento feel both more intimate and at the same time more expansive because it's boundaries would be less visible.

As for the types of businesses and entertainment. Unlike Disneyland, which is owned and operated by a single entity, Old Sacramento is made up of many independent businesses. The market should determine the businesses. That's not something the public can dictate. But I would loosen the signage regulations to allow different sizes and even neon. We just need to worry about the things we can do and let the market work out the rest.

Last edited by ozone; Mar 31, 2014 at 8:51 PM.
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  #4950  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2014, 7:41 PM
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Not sure trees are possible in Old Sac, as the street is raised about 15 feet off the ground.

Agreed that the Disneylandification of Old Sac is a horrible idea that needs to go in a different direction. More housing in actual Old Sac would help.

Not a mystery why Old Sac seems buried. It starts with I and ends with 5.
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  #4951  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2014, 7:50 PM
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I would like to see Old Sac turned into a nightlife/entertainment district, with the focus being on businesses that nearby residents would frequent and not catered to out-of-town tourists like Old Sac is currently. Using Downtown/River as a backdrop would be a great setting for cafe's/restaurants with outdoor seating. Bars and nightclubs would ensure that there's a late night crowd as well. Something along the model of like Old Town Scottsdale or, my favorite, the French Quarter/Bourbon Street in New Orleans. I think most residents are tired of Old Sac in its current state. The only time I'm ever there is if I'm passing through to a River Cats game.
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  #4952  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2014, 8:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Ozo View Post
Not sure trees are possible in Old Sac, as the street is raised about 15 feet off the ground.

Agreed that the Disneylandification of Old Sac is a horrible idea that needs to go in a different direction. More housing in actual Old Sac would help.
Trees are totally possible! After all we dig down way deeper than 15 ft for buildings. OK yes, we couldn't plant trees in the conventional way, but where there is a will, there's a way. We would have to create tree wells specific for conditions -maybe pored-in-place concrete wells or possibly use large pre-made utility culverts up-ended and the trees planted inside them?

I agree that more housing is needed and maybe hotel rooms as well. One way to make this happen is to no longer require the Firehouse parking lot at L/Front be a reproduction (of late 19th C.) buildings. Because it was originally a group of rather nondescript one-story buildings it's not going to be very profitable for a developer. But if we allowed a non-historical building on the site it would get developed. It would still be required to 'fit in.'

We really need to move beyond the out-of-date original concept for Old Sacramento because it was never properly implemented and with the freeway, traffic, parking meters and nearby modern office towers it's now impossible to maintain the illusion.

Last edited by ozone; Mar 31, 2014 at 8:49 PM.
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  #4953  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2014, 9:29 PM
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Ok...First of all, we are going to have to agree to disagree about Rob. I think he is an amazing visionary who puts these ideas out there for Sacramento on a grand scale when very few others are. 2) He did not call for the "Disneylandification" of Old Sac. He proposed a few ideas that would make it better. What's wrong with people in period clothing walking around (for general info or historic education)? The piped in smells? Ok...that's not all that necessary. But, the lighting and the music...ABSOLUTELY that would be amazing in that area! What an (even more) amazing place Old Sac would be if it were a cohesive district tied together by period-specific music and historic significance!!! I don't get what's wrong with his ideas. He's not wanting parades/shows or Disney characters walking around...he's proposing things that "plus" Old Sac and add to it's charm.
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  #4954  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2014, 10:48 PM
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Rob is a preservationist, I just don't think he realizes what a preservationist is (hint: it's not all about keeping things exactly the way they are. It's about finding new uses for old buildings.)

Old Sacramento has been positioned as a nightlife/entertainment district for decades, it just has ebbs and flows alternating between lots of new nightlife events going on, and occasional rashes of shootings and violence which slows down the nightlife and scares away customers not interested in shooting each other. It's difficult to make Old Sacramento a nightlife destination that focuses mostly on nearby residents, because there aren't many nearby residents. Midtown's population is going up, and given some time we'll have more folks nearby in West Sacramento, but people tend to want to be entertained in their own neighborhood, which means more residential in Old Sacramento and the central business district (roughly H to N, from the river to 21st), where it is now sorely lacking (fewer people per capita than Land Park or East Sacramento, if you don't include the main jail) while most of the impetus to put new housing is outside that perimeter, because the land is cheaper (in part because it's not zoned for unlimited height.)

One thing about music, though...ragtime jazz is not period-appropriate for a district with a late Gold Rush/mid 19th century theme. Ragtime is from the 1890s and early 20th century. If ragtime jazz was such a sure-fire crowd pleaser, the Sacramento Music Festival wouldn't be trying so hard to rebrand itself. And I can't imagine young people wanting a contemporary nightlife/nightclub experience being all that happy to hear "When The Saints Come Marching In" played on a million banjos. But there isn't much music you wouldn't have heard in the West End over a century or so--big band jazz and Western swing, bebop and Latin jazz, Japanese samisen and Mexican coridos, Portuguese, Italian and German folk songs, rockabilly and rock & roll, disco, funk, basement techno and garage punk.

Considering that there are arcades and porches covering most of the sidewalks in Old Sacramento, and the sidewalks underneath are hollow (and in many cases, used as commercial space in basement-level restaurants and nightclubs) I don't see the tree idea getting much traction. Those hollow sidewalks are also a tourist attraction in their own right!
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  #4955  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2014, 11:06 PM
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I agree it should be a place to go to for locals and tourists.
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  #4956  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2014, 11:44 PM
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Considering that there are arcades and porches covering most of the sidewalks in Old Sacramento, and the sidewalks underneath are hollow (and in many cases, used as commercial space in basement-level restaurants and nightclubs) I don't see the tree idea getting much traction. Those hollow sidewalks are also a tourist attraction in their own right!
Do you even bother reading other people's post before responding? FYI the covered sidewalks are poor substitute for street trees. They do not provide half of the benefits. But you can't seem to understand that. Also if you had bothered reading my post you would understand that I'm not talking about planting trees in the wood sidewalks. You can always come up with a hundred reasons why something can't be done but come up short on solutions.

BTW what good has the Old City Assoc. really done for this city? Now you guys are trying to save the suburban-style housing projects in West Broadway because they're "historic." Really? Forgive me if I take your opinion with a grain of salt. Sorry to be so harsh but I've about had it with your Mr Know-it-all attitude.
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  #4957  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2014, 11:56 PM
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Sounds like Rob wants a Gold Rush Amusement Park. Which actually sounds like a great idea for the area. Just not in Old Sac.

A city can't manufacture culture. They can only help to provide the impetus behind it. Old sac already has musicians on the corner, sparingly. If there is to be more, then there has to be more foot traffic and profit to be made by the artist. You can not place city paid street performers out there. Same with actors in period piece costumes. If the city would like to do period re-enactments once a week for an hour, that is fine. But it can't be a constant thing without it feeling contrived and forced.

The only way this gets off the ground is with more housing in old sac and around it. More foot traffic. Loosening of some restrictions, such as hours of operation and noise restrictions. The citizens and supply and demand will take care of the rest.
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  #4958  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2014, 12:53 AM
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Do you even bother reading other people's post before responding? FYI the covered sidewalks are poor substitute for street trees. They do not provide half of the benefits. But you can't seem to understand that. Also if you had bothered reading my post you would understand that I'm not talking about planting trees in the wood sidewalks. You can always come up with a hundred reasons why something can't be done but come up short on solutions.

BTW what good has the Old City Assoc. really done for this city? Now you guys are trying to save the suburban-style housing projects in West Broadway because they're "historic." Really? Forgive me if I take your opinion with a grain of salt. Sorry to be so harsh but I've about had it with your Mr Know-it-all attitude.
We can have a civil debate without getting rude. Respect for other forumers is appreciated.
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  #4959  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2014, 1:29 AM
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Sounds like Rob wants a Gold Rush Amusement Park. Which actually sounds like a great idea for the area. Just not in Old Sac.

A city can't manufacture culture. They can only help to provide the impetus behind it. Old sac already has musicians on the corner, sparingly. If there is to be more, then there has to be more foot traffic and profit to be made by the artist. You can not place city paid street performers out there. Same with actors in period piece costumes. If the city would like to do period re-enactments once a week for an hour, that is fine. But it can't be a constant thing without it feeling contrived and forced.

The only way this gets off the ground is with more housing in old sac and around it. More foot traffic. Loosening of some restrictions, such as hours of operation and noise restrictions. The citizens and supply and demand will take care of the rest.
Indeed. Let street buskers operate independently, it seems silly to suggest that they be required to stick to a particular genre, or have to jump through all sorts of hoops just to play music on the street. Or set up a very simple system like that used on the 3rd Street promenade in Santa Monica--they pay a small fee ($20-30) and read a little booklet with the basic rules for street musicians (where you can and can't play, etc.) and here's your permit.

In terms of loosening restrictions, some new rules introduced in the zoning code last year make it easier to put residential units into historic buildings (including ignoring maximum density limits as long as it's within the old building envelope) mean it's theoretically easier to put housing into Old Sacramento and other old, vacant or underutilized buildings nearby (legislation that SOCA advocated for, along with reduced or eliminated parking minimums for projects in old buildings). Residents create foot traffic and become the core customers for neighborhood businesses--visitors add to that number, and tourists add even more. Of course, not everyone wants to live in that amusement-park atmosphere, but you don't need an enormous population in that six-block area. Restrictions on hours have more to do with the local business community than city regulation--heck, a couple years ago I went to a Planning Commission meeting to advocate in favor of having a proposed downtown 7-11 remain open 24 hours, while representatives of the Convention & Visitors Bureau and the local hotel association spoke in opposition to allowing it, because having a late-night business next to the Convention Center and a downtown hotel would give the "wrong impression." Their actions, and their discomfort with late-night businesses, residential and 24 hour uses, are a major reason why downtown Sacramento has so few late night uses--such as the Perko's on 3rd and J which has to close down between 2 and 5 AM, unlike pretty much every other Perko's.

There's also plenty of room for organized public programming--from reenactors and interpretive events to public-funded music events and concerts. Why not? It's part of the appeal and people like it. A lot of those folks are volunteers, like the volunteers who operate the Railroad Museum's passenger trains, while others are paid staff, like the tour guides who run the Underground Sidewalks tours. But there is no inherent contradiction between interpretive/historic functions and more contemporary entertainment, or street buskers playing music that isn't 100% authentic Gold Rush era music (which dixieland jazz, as I mentioned, absolutely is not.)

Last edited by wburg; Apr 1, 2014 at 4:18 AM.
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  #4960  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2014, 3:26 AM
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Originally Posted by snfenoc View Post
Interesting point, Urban.


A few things I've been thinking about...

Soft (Refundable) deposits are not the same as Non-Refundable deposits. I'm not sure Saca had over 50% COMMITMENT from potential condo buyers.

I don't think that skepticism on the part of a council member or two (I don't remember any) had significant effect on the bank's and CalPERS's decision to withhold financing on the Towers.

Also, one should remember that just because a project gets off the ground, doesn't mean it will be a success. The L Street Lofts property was foreclosed on, and it had to be converted to rental units. I'm not sure if those units are even 100% occupied at this point. The L Street Lofts had about 1/10 the condo units as the Towers On Crapitol Mall did, by the way.

Additionally, I remember reading about a number of condo projects that were left unfinished due to the economic downturn. I'm not sure a half-built development is any more a success than a hole in the ground. Besides, the City agreed to subsidize the hotel portion of the development. It would have been horrible if the city ended up losing those millions of dollars. Consequently, it may not have the gravitas it has currently to subsidize the new ESC. I'm glad (for the City's sake) the Towers didn't get far enough to unlock the city subsidy. (Speculation on my part, but something to think about.)

I imagine those who were depending on the equity in their "current" homes to help pay for their condos are counting their blessings that their soft and non-refundable deposits were returned after the project was canceled. Had the project been just 6 months ahead and actually completed (as some are suggesting) and the residents were obligated to eat those deposits, that could have really hurt a lot of people financially. (Again, speculation on my part.)

When things don't work out, we tend to blame evil forces (NIMBYs and Mayor Fargo) instead of considering reality. "If Sacramento just had a "can do" attitude, we would be a world class city." I'm sorry, but Sacramento is (or was) not the kind of market to support 850 high-end condos and a 5-star hotel. There is nothing wrong with pushing the envelope and trying to grow bigger, but you need a solid foundation from which to make that push. Those smaller towers (Bridgeway, etc.) on the "super block" were built 30+ years ago and represent tallest housing in Sacramento. That's not saying much. Additionally, I think they were built as rental units (one may have been converted to condos a few years back, however). Maybe this current proposal is a good springboard for taller high rise housing. It appears to be a phased development with a high proportion of rental housing. We'll see.

Well said
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