AUSTIN | Transportation Updates

[M1EK]

electricon, the problem is that Cap Metro's 'plan' ran streetcars in shared traffic, which would be awful except that they never had any serious intent to actually do anything - they were pushed to make the plan but clearly were never going to follow through with any implementation.

The city has had to take the reins because Cap Metro is consumed with the useless commuter rail line, and in the process has introduced reserved guideway - which is absolutely essential, since without it, streetcars are even worse than buses.

[electricron]

I'm going to half support you on the streetcar issues.

In and about downtown Austin and it's immediate neighborhoods, streetcars could be the answer to move commuters around. But, streetcars to the airport, or all the way to Leander, isn't.

Austin would be much better off with commuter rail, or regional rail to move commuters into downtown. And I disagree that commuter rail is useless. There is no one solution that answers all mass transit problems. You have to use what's best for each problem.

Cities with good mass transit use every mode possible. Even NYC doesn't use subways exclusively. Austin doesn't have the population densities to support metro rail (subways or other entirely grade seperated trains using a third rail). Austin's densities only will support light rail, either electric powered or diesel powered, and commuter rail. Austin doesn't have many existing or abandoned rail corridors to run commuter rail on. But that doesn't mean they shouldn't build any. They should build them when and where the opportunity exists, as commuter rail projects are much cheaper to build. Most of Austin's remaining choices left are streetcars and light rail trains running down city streets, which are more expensive to build. But, it would be a mistake to build the more expensive light rail or streetcars down city streets near an existing rail corridor.
So, both solutions should be used. In fact, the more corridors Austin builds the cheaper commuter rail on, more money there is left to build the more expensive light rail and streetcar corridors on.

[M1EK]

Commuter rail that doesn't hit the major attractors is absolutely useless in a city where you're trying to attract choice commuters. Even a transfer from "good rail" to "good rail" turns off a hefty percentage of commuters, even in Manhattan where driving is so expensive and difficult. In Austin, it doesn't have a prayer. And the BEST case scenario now is that we transfer from "mediocre commuter rail" to "mediocre streetcar" after a few years of hoping that people who won't ride the express bus today won't mind riding a shuttle bus twice a day.

The commuter rail line now squats atop part of the corridor that other cities (and we almost) would have built light rail on and succeeded like it did everywhere else. Commuter rail as a line-haul service, on the other hand, hasn't succeeded anywhere where rail hadn't owned a large chunk of the mode split beforehand.

Thanks, Lyndon.

[nixcity]

Assuming we get this first LR line to Mueller, would it be possible to shoot another LR line from the 12th and Congress area over to Lamar or Guadalupe up to Crestview where the CR line runs and then somehow run parallel to said line to at least Cedar Park?

[paulsjv]

Well if the LR gets built I'm really hoping that some how it gets expanded to the Arboretum and the Domain.

[M1EK]

No, this streetcar/ultralight rail line will never go to Cedar Park. There's not enough room in the ROW for the existing crappy commuter rail service and LRT, even if the Feds would let that happen (they probably wouldn't) - and you'd need double-track for decent LRT anyways.

And it'll probably never go up to Crestview either. You can thank your neighbors for voting against the 2000 plan.

[nixcity]

okay, then assuming we get the initial line in place, could it be extended to Pflugerville/Round Rock?

[alexjon]

You guys will LOVE LRT

Unless you live between two major transfer centers. Then you might have to stand in the mornings. Light Rail gets crowded.

[electricron]

Originally Posted by nixcity

okay, then assuming we get the initial line in place, could it be extended to Pflugerville/Round Rock?

Yes, the regional rail DMU train could be extended to Pflugerville and Round Rock using the abandoned MKT railroad right of way. At 10 to 15 million per mile, that's including laying all new track, it'll cost at most $245 million to build the 16.33 miles of track to old town Pflugerville, and a total cost of 330 million to build the 22 miles of track to US 79 in east Round Rock. And DCTA's plan includes $10 to $20 million to build a maintenance facilty for the DMU trains Cap Metro has already built.

22 miles of brand new track is very close to the same milage DCTA is laying brand new track to Denton from Carrollton. DCTA plans the total cost around $310 million for 21 miles of brand new track, new trains, and a maintenance facility. CapMetro costs should be less than DCTA's. That total is far cheaper than building the proposed $800 million streetcar line just to the new Mueller development.

Personally, I think this should be CapMetro's next train project. Using the maintenance facilities they already have built to maintain the Stadler DMUs, and ownership of the right of way is already in public hands.

And single track with no freight trains can support trains in both directions with 20 minute intervals with properly placed passing tracks and/or stations. A three car Stadler DMU train can sit 300 passengers, and carry 600 passengers. And Stadler DMU cars can also built longer easily, have an additonal 50 sitting passengers, or an additional total of 100 passengers per car. Three cars trains mean an additional 150 sitting passengers, and/or an additional 300 total passengers per train.

As for the trains going nowhere, that's now. Train stations are much like building ballparks. If you build them, people and TODs will come. Note, the new ballpark in Round Rock will be approximately one mile away from the US 79 and MKT right of way. Maybe too far to walk, but not too long to take a direct shuttle bus. And you'll save the expense of paying to park.

Building a bridge over the Colorado River connecting the existing Leander or my suggested Pflugerville line to the airport would be going somewhere that exists today, connecting Austin's major north suburbs and downtown Austin to the airport.

[electricron]

Originally Posted by M1EK

No, this streetcar/ultralight rail line will never go to Cedar Park. There's not enough room in the ROW for the existing crappy commuter rail service and LRT, even if the Feds would let that happen (they probably wouldn't) - and you'd need double-track for decent LRT anyways.

And it'll probably never go up to Crestview either. You can thank your neighbors for voting against the 2000 plan.

And I thought the Leander Line DMU train was traveling through Cedar Park. The Lakeline Station not being in Cedar Park is news to me.
In fact, the Lakeline Station wiil be approximately 1 mile away from Cedar Park's new sport's arena and mall. Maybe too far to walk, but not too far to bike or take a shuttle bus to.
With a shuttle bus, you'll actually walk less than parking in the parking lot to get to these locales.

But I do agree, don't expect a streetcar to go that far. It'll take way too much time to travel that far stopping every second or third block on the way.

[M1EK]

electricon, the train will never go anywhere worth going - because it can't be extended to the Capitol or UT or to the parts of downtown people actually work. (the last is a bit of a stretch - it can go to roughly 4th/Brazos but no further).

The folks who asked the question were talking about whether the LRT line could be sent up to Cedar Park, not the useless DMU crapfest.

[nixcity]

^Yes, and I was also referring to extending the possible LR line from airport to Mueller (if approved) up to Round Rock/Pflugerville.

[electricron]

Originally Posted by nixcity

^Yes, and I was also referring to extending the possible LR line from airport to Mueller (if approved) up to Round Rock/Pflugerville.

I think many are confused about the differences between streetcars and light rail. Streetcars, what CapMetro is suggesting to get to the Airport from Downtown, usually stop at least every quarter mile, or every three to four blocks. Pflugerville to Downtown Austin is like 15 to 16 miles as a crow flys.
That's 60 to 64 stops along the way. How fast do you really expect any train to travel 15 miles with 4 10 second stops every mile. 40 seconds of 60 seconds for stops means 20 seconds at speed, including starting and stoping to/from a dead stop. Assuming the streetcar was traveling at maximum speed of 45 mph for that entire 20 seconds, it would average 15 mph over the entire 15 miles to Pflugerville. It'll take a full hour to go 15 miles. A streetcar going to Leander would take two hours to travel 30 miles.

No one is going to want to ride a train that stops four times a mile over that far a distance. Streetcars are best for shorter distances, where the lline is 5 miles or so. It'll take 20 minutes to travel 5 miles on a streetcar with 4 stops a mile. Where streetcars work best in Austin is Downtown, State Capital, and University of Texas areas, where passengers expect to get on and off every few blocks, and where there's a huge office building every few blocks.

Except for downtown streets, most light rail trains stop every mile or two, and therefore average much higher speeds. Regional Rail like CapMetro's Leander Line stops every 3 to 4 miles, and can average higher speeds than light rail. The further the rail line is, the larger and cheaper the train you'll want.

Light rail train cars are about twice the size as streetcars, with station stops every mile or two. Because they stop less often, they have higher average speeds. DART's light rail trains reach a top speed of 65 mph between stations placed a mile or two apart. When DART light rail trains reach downtown Dallas, they become large streetcars in operation, with stations three to four blocks apart. That's the advantage of using light rail trains, they can do either job.

Regional/Commuter trains have station placed 3, 4, 5, up to 10 miles apart. They can reach speeds up to 79 mph between stations. Since they stop much less, they have higher average speeds, some as high as 55 mph. When traveling 30 miles from Leander to downtown Austin, getting there in less than an hour during rush hour is acceptable to most commuters. A light rail train would take an hour or more to reach downtown, a streetcar up to two hours to reach downtown.

That's why Austin needs a mix of trains. Light rail trains can act as all the examples I've written above, depending upon how far apart the stations are apart. But you can't make a streetcar into a light rail train, nor make a Regional/Commuter train into a streetcar train. Each type of train is idea for a different market.
Most streetcars can sit less than 50 passengers. Most light rail cars have seats from 65 to 100 passengers. Most Regional/Commuter rail cars can sit 120-250 passengers, depending upon whether they are single or double level cars.

The market ridership predictions for each individual corridor should determine which type train to use. Using streetcars to reach Round Rock from downtown Austin is the wrong choice. Using a comuter train to move passengers a mile is the wrong choice. DFW area is using streetcars, light rail, and commuter rail today on different rail and street corridors. By the end of 2010, DFW area will also have Regional Rail added to the mix, by DCTA, and soon aftewrwards, by Ft. Worth's T.
Why, because the DFW area knows one train doesn't fit every corridor.

[alexjon]

Streetcars ARE light rail, however. They're simply a different application. It's entirely possible to make it such that peak hour streetcars have a bypass in such a way that allows them to speed through a neighborhood if necessary.

Of course, capital costs and all that-- but transit is an investment not an expense.

[M1EK]

Originally Posted by electricron

I think many are confused about the differences between streetcars and light rail.

As are you.

Capital Metro proposed shared-lane streetcar and it went nowhere. The CAMPO TWG, which might actually get somewhere, has proposed either streetcar vehicles or LRT vehicles running in reserved guideway.

Capital Metro is NOT INVOLVED in the current discussions. The city has, to a degree, adopted a more sensible position that if Capital Metro refuses to provide rail service to the Austinites who pay essentially all of their bills, we'll do it ourselves, and establish more control over the money we send them in the process.

[alexjon]

Originally Posted by M1EK

As are you.

Capital Metro proposed shared-lane streetcar and it went nowhere. The CAMPO TWG, which might actually get somewhere, has proposed either streetcar vehicles or LRT vehicles running in reserved guideway.

Capital Metro is NOT INVOLVED in the current discussions. The city has, to a degree, adopted a more sensible position that if Capital Metro refuses to provide rail service to the Austinites who pay essentially all of their bills, we'll do it ourselves, and establish more control over the money we send them in the process.

M1EK, what's your experience with streetcars, if I might ask?

[SecretAgentMan]

Originally Posted by M1EK

Capital Metro is NOT INVOLVED in the current discussions.

Not true. While the City is in the operator seat by virtue of extending ROMA's Downtown Plan contract to develop the concept, Cap Metro is very much involved in providing technical input.

It's not that Cap Metro doesn't want to provide the best transit services feasible, they are just very gun-shy because of the criticism that is heaped on them.

Don't forget, at least one of the City Council members pushing this plan is also a Cap Metro board member. Staff of both organizations and most of their consultants have very good working relationships in my experience.

[M1EK]

Originally Posted by SecretAgentMan

Not true. While the City is in the operator seat by virtue of extending ROMA's Downtown Plan contract to develop the concept, Cap Metro is very much involved in providing technical input.

It's not that Cap Metro doesn't want to provide the best transit services feasible, they are just very gun-shy because of the criticism that is heaped on them.

That's a complete load of crap - Cap Metro's post-Rae leadership was and still is very anti-urban-rail; and they wouldn't have shat out the useless shared-lane streetcar line except that the public demanded they do SOMETHING for central Austin and wasn't willing to tolerate shuttle buses, so CM did the bare minimum to get people off their back.

The city's influence as board members has been, so far, to tell Capital Metro to do things differently, as in: "don't buy those useless Rapid Buses" and "if you won't build rail for central Austin, we will; and by the way, we'll be thinking about putting some additional restrictions on your capital spending in the process".

[M1EK]

Originally Posted by alexjon

M1EK, what's your experience with streetcars, if I might ask?

Ridden a few while a tourist; but mainly, ridden a bus on the same route and paying attention to the number of times it had to go around a double-parked car, or was stuck in traffic. One example here.

[alexjon]

Originally Posted by M1EK

Ridden a few while a tourist; but mainly, ridden a bus on the same route and paying attention to the number of times it had to go around a double-parked car, or was stuck in traffic. One example here.

Then I'll say you have no practical experience, then. I find it surprising that you would compare the transit reality of austin with your transit fantasy of portland. I also find it hilarious that a suburbanite is telling urbanites how local transit should work. I think it would be like me going around telling New Yorkers how they should augment their subways.

Thinking more and more about it, I realize that no, a streetcar would NOT work in Austin: it's full of people like you, who think that car drivers are inherently stupid, traffic engineers can't get it right and rail transit should magically whoosh people to and from their inherently unwalkable "walkable" neighborhoods.

This is also why I think LRT wouldn't work in Austin-- considering a full or majority build-out can only muster about the same ridership as a severely diminished build-out in other cities. But keep taking your fairy dust, M1EK. You will have magical LRT and all that sprawl in Austin you pretend doesn't exist will magically turn into walkable dense neighborhoods!