High Speed Rail in Canada

[flipv]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal is the best potential HSR corridor in the country. Better than Toronto-London, Montreal-Quebec City and Calgary-Edmonton.

Of course, I understand that certain governments may prioritize other corridors for their own reasons.

Quebec and Ontario need to dust off that HSR study they started years ago, finish it, fund half of the cost ($10-15bn) and ask the difference to be paid from the Trudeau government. There won't be a government this willing to fund something so blatantly 'Laurentian' for a while afterwards...

[TorontoDrew]

Originally Posted by flipv

Quebec and Ontario need to dust off that HSR study they started years ago, finish it, fund half of the cost ($10-15bn) and ask the difference to be paid from the Trudeau government. There won't be a government this willing to fund something so blatantly 'Laurentian' for a while afterwards...

We also need to work with the U.S, by that I mean follow what ever they're doing so we can have cross border service.

[mistercorporate]

Originally Posted by flipv

Quebec and Ontario need to dust off that HSR study they started years ago, finish it, fund half of the cost ($10-15bn) and ask the difference to be paid from the Trudeau government. There won't be a government this willing to fund something so blatantly 'Laurentian' for a while afterwards...

While Montreal may always get a HSR line to NYC in the future, a NY HSR line connecting to Buffalo is already at a relatively advanced stage of planning and could easily be connected to via Hamilton and Niagara for a couple billion vs a $15-20 billion line to Montreal. I'm all for a Montreal to TO line but the ROI doesn't justify it right now above our highest priority 'quick win' projects. It would be wise to include it in our list of infrastructure requests to Ottawa but not prioritized above local subways, frequent suburban connections and regional HSR.

[ssiguy]

I think Tor/Lon makes very good sense to start.

The 401 from Toronto to London is becoming a horror show and will only get worse. Not only is the traffic very heavy but is crammed with transport trucks. The traffic into Ottawa is near barren compared to the SWO 401 and has a fraction of the transport traffic.

London is the 4th busiest VIA rail station in the country which doesn't include the traffic coming in from Wind/Det and Sarnia.

Mon/Tor and Mon/QC are obvious routes but Ottawa less so. The route from Toronto to Montreal should be a non-stop to make the trip as fast and reliable as possible. I think a spur line from Kingston to Ottawa and the Montreal would work with a stop in Kingston for that route but the primary QC/Mon/Tor/Lon/Win must come first.

I've always thought Hamilton would be a better bet but I can see the logic of KW as well due to the tech sector and especially the Pearson connection.

[Kibb]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

I think Tor/Lon makes very good sense to start.

The 401 from Toronto to London is becoming a horror show and will only get worse. Not only is the traffic very heavy but is crammed with transport trucks. The traffic into Ottawa is near barren compared to the SWO 401 and has a fraction of the transport traffic.

London is the 4th busiest VIA rail station in the country which doesn't include the traffic coming in from Wind/Det and Sarnia.

Mon/Tor and Mon/QC are obvious routes but Ottawa less so. The route from Toronto to Montreal should be a non-stop to make the trip as fast and reliable as possible. I think a spur line from Kingston to Ottawa and the Montreal would work with a stop in Kingston for that route but the primary QC/Mon/Tor/Lon/Win must come first.

I've always thought Hamilton would be a better bet but I can see the logic of KW as well due to the tech sector and especially the Pearson connection.

I don't see how cutting out Ottawa, so you can run the line just 70km to the south of Ottawa (1.4+ million), makes sense.

[Aylmer]

Especially since the Ottawa-Toronto and Ottawa-Montreal trains are often full.

As for Montreal-NYC, I think it's necessary to at least upgrade the line, if not HSR (which NY is planning to build up to Albany anyways). At the moment, it takes 11 hours, bringing the schedule speed to a leisurely 50km/h. 50km/h! it was faster in the 1920's! They could cut a full hour by building an secured customs platform in Montreal, but there need to be some minor but important upgrades to the track to allow for 150-200km/h from Albany to Montreal. With just that, you could cut the travel time from 11h to 3.5-4h, bringing it within spitting distance of the total time required to fly and get downtown. With HSR, You could could cut it down to 2.5 hours.

For access from a major Canadian metropolis to THE major megopolis of the US, I think we should definitely foster better rail connectivity. Or at least better connectivity than in the 1920's!

[bikegypsy]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

I think Tor/Lon makes very good sense to start.

The 401 from Toronto to London is becoming a horror show and will only get worse. Not only is the traffic very heavy but is crammed with transport trucks. The traffic into Ottawa is near barren compared to the SWO 401 and has a fraction of the transport traffic.

London is the 4th busiest VIA rail station in the country which doesn't include the traffic coming in from Wind/Det and Sarnia.

Mon/Tor and Mon/QC are obvious routes but Ottawa less so. The route from Toronto to Montreal should be a non-stop to make the trip as fast and reliable as possible. I think a spur line from Kingston to Ottawa and the Montreal would work with a stop in Kingston for that route but the primary QC/Mon/Tor/Lon/Win must come first.

I've always thought Hamilton would be a better bet but I can see the logic of KW as well due to the tech sector and especially the Pearson connection.

Hahahaha!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

Especially since the Ottawa-Toronto and Ottawa-Montreal trains are often full.

And anyone who"s ever been in an Air Canada Rapidair departure lounge knows how busy the hourly Ottawa-Toronto-Ottawa flights are.

[Taeolas]

So how close is London to Toronto in comparison to other North American HSR projects?

The impression I have is that a lot of the American projects might technically be further along, but they've lost momentum due to political reasons.

London to Toronto feels like it has full backing across all levels now, and it's basically a matter of completing the reports before the shovels can hit the ground.

[MolsonExport]

Windsor-Toronto is a great contender for the first line (I want to see it go all the way to QC with a bit of a jog north to Ottawa, ).

Depending on the route, you have Windsor (metro 320,000), London (metro 505,000), Kitchener-Waterloo (metro 510,000), Guelph (metro 140,000), Hamilton (metro 720,000), and of course, Toronto (metro 6,000,000), and a bunch of smaller places nearby/en-route (e.g., Brantford, Woodstock, Chatham, Leamington)

[Horus]

Windsor seems more likely if the US proceeds with the proposed Detroit - Chicago route and Midwest network

[Taeolas]

I'm 90% certain that Ontario's plans are to go Windsor to Toronto. As in the Environmental Assessments and route planning and such all assume it will go to Windsor eventually.

When it comes to actual construction, they're just going to London first; but the (unannounced) phase 2 would be to kick it the rest of the way to Windsor and the only thing they'll need to do at that point will be to build the track and run the trains; everything else will have already been done.

[Beedok]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Windsor-Toronto is a great contender for the first line (I want to see it go all the way to QC with a bit of a jog north to Ottawa, ).

Depending on the route, you have Windsor (metro 320,000), London (metro 505,000), Kitchener-Waterloo (metro 510,000), Guelph (metro 140,000), Hamilton (metro 720,000), and of course, Toronto (metro 6,000,000), and a bunch of smaller places nearby/en-route (e.g., Brantford, Woodstock, Chatham, Leamington)

You can have Kitchener, or you can have Hamilton, but you can't have both. Even then the Hamilton one would be going to Aldershot in all probability if you're heading to Toronto from London.

[Razor]

+1 from me for the first phase being a Windsor to Toronto leg..It would have the most impact for that proposed QC to Windsor corridor or Windsor to QC if they start it at Windsor.

Also, yes to a connection just North of Ottawa, but not too far..You can drive to Montreal in just under 2.0 hours now, so it has to be real appealing and feasible for luring in future HSR passengers. A station can't be too much out of the way, otherwise why not just stick to the current VIA.

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

Especially since the Ottawa-Toronto and Ottawa-Montreal trains are often full.

As for Montreal-NYC, I think it's necessary to at least upgrade the line, if not HSR (which NY is planning to build up to Albany anyways). At the moment, it takes 11 hours, bringing the schedule speed to a leisurely 50km/h. 50km/h! it was faster in the 1920's! They could cut a full hour by building an secured customs platform in Montreal, but there need to be some minor but important upgrades to the track to allow for 150-200km/h from Albany to Montreal. With just that, you could cut the travel time from 11h to 3.5-4h, bringing it within spitting distance of the total time required to fly and get downtown. With HSR, You could could cut it down to 2.5 hours.

For access from a major Canadian metropolis to THE major megopolis of the US, I think we should definitely foster better rail connectivity. Or at least better connectivity than in the 1920's!

A secured customs facility in Montreal is not really feasible on a regional line, since there are at least 1 or 2 intermediate stations between Montreal and the border. There couldn't be any stops between Montreal and the border if there was pre-clearance, since they would get on unsecured. Those on the south shore would be forced to travel back to downtown Montreal, which is a long out of the way trip for a fairly decent population unless there was a speed advantage on the other side.

That said, if upgraded to HSR, such would be feasible as there would likely be only 1 or 2 stops between Albany and Montreal (perhaps Plattsburgh and Glens Falls, if the demand warrants).

[eternallyme]

As for other pre-clearance options, I can see one option working in the Windsor-Detroit area, but it would likely require clearance on the US side.

* Michigan Central Station would be placed back into use, and would be the new terminus for the HSR line, where connections can be made to service in the Midwest (including Chicago)

* The Windsor station would need to be relocated to near the corner of Wyandotte and Caron, just west of downtown. It is closer to most of the key destinations in Windsor anyway. There isn't enough room there for a large enough facility to support pre-clearance.

* A new tunnel would need to extend from the end of that line (at University Avenue) to one level below Michigan Central Station, which would be entirely segregated from freight tracks. That way, those getting off (or on) the line from Toronto would go straight into (or out of) customs from the train.

* Once clear of customs, they would be able to connect to go to Chicago on the Wolverine or other Midwest destinations at that station (Amtrak would have to relocate back there).

* The cost for the renovations, maintenance and tunnel should be 50-50.

I don't see any reasonable pre-clearance setup on the Niagara connection, since neither Niagara Falls station would likely be a terminus.

[swimmer_spe]

Are we talking new track? Or, are we talking upgrading existing track to HSR? What speeds are we talking too?

[hipster duck]

HSR is worth it in some places, but the planning, engineering and construction of any HSR line, at any speed, will be a major challenge.

I think the "lowest hanging fruit" would be the Toronto - Pearson - KW - London line at a max speed around 250 km/h using existing ROW (e.g. the UPX corridor in Toronto) in urban areas.

Even there, I foresee major obstacles. These include:

- sharing space with the CN mainline between Bramalea and Georgetown. In some places - like downtown Brampton - I think that the only option would be to elevate the HSR line on a concrete viaduct, which will bring downtown Brampton NIMBYs out like moths to a flame.


- expropriation and trenching of the HSR line just west of downtown Guelph. This is how the line looks now. I imagine they'll have to dig up the entire street and build a cut and cover subway for the HSR line for a few hundred meters. It won't be cheap.

- Then there's the fact that at HSR speeds, every crossing has to be grade-separated and the line has to be electrified in its entirety.

Anyway, I'm not saying it shouldn't be done, but I don't think we'll be riding HSR trains for at least 10 years and it will generate a lot more controversy than people are willing to admit.

[scryer]

Personally I would like to see: Windsor - Toronto - Ottawa - Montreal - New York

Realistically, I don't think it would be possible.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

HSR is worth it in some places, but the planning, engineering and construction of any HSR line, at any speed, will be a major challenge.

I think the "lowest hanging fruit" would be the Toronto - Pearson - KW - London line at a max speed around 250 km/h using existing ROW (e.g. the UPX corridor in Toronto) in urban areas.

Even there, I foresee major obstacles. These include:

- sharing space with the CN mainline between Bramalea and Georgetown. In some places - like downtown Brampton - I think that the only option would be to elevate the HSR line on a concrete viaduct, which will bring downtown Brampton NIMBYs out like moths to a flame.


- expropriation and trenching of the HSR line just west of downtown Guelph. This is how the line looks now. I imagine they'll have to dig up the entire street and build a cut and cover subway for the HSR line for a few hundred meters. It won't be cheap.

- Then there's the fact that at HSR speeds, every crossing has to be grade-separated and the line has to be electrified in its entirety.

Anyway, I'm not saying it shouldn't be done, but I don't think we'll be riding HSR trains for at least 10 years and it will generate a lot more controversy than people are willing to admit.

In the case of Guelph, I believe I read somewhere that the idea would be to build a new bypass to the south of the city.