Salt Lake Transit News Thread

[RFPCME]

Originally Posted by Future Mayor

As we talk about conservation and renewable resources we also have to consider how some things that are billed as "conservation" I read in planning magazine several months ago and have heard it several other places that buying a hybrid is actually more detrimental to the environment.

If you are buying a hybrid to save money on gas, it is estimated that it could take nearly 10 years to reap the benefits of the extra fuel economy vs the price of gas. (not from planning magazine)

The actual carbon footprint for a hybrid is actually more harmful to the environment, due to the eventual disposal of the battery system, than driving a substantially less fuel efficient car, such as a full size SUV(suburban). The emissions for the suburban will create less harm to the environment than the emissions and battery disposal of a hybrid.

Just wanted to pass that little information on. I think it's funny how some people that drive hybrids (not all) get on this big environmental high horse and have the attitude that they are so much better than the rest of us non hybrid owners, when actually Soccer Mom from Draper is actually causing less harm driving around her full size Yukon.

Future Mayor: I don't know where Planning Magazine got their information from on hybrid cars from, but it isn't entirely accurate. The batteries used in hybrids are truely state-of-the-art. Yes, they have especially noxious materials in them, but these batteries were designed from the get-go to be recyclable. So looking at the batteries from a conventional battery standpoint, which always wear out, isn't accurate. In fact, Toyota keeps extending the warranty on the complete electrical system of their hybrids (which, in fact, Toyota has licensed to all other car manufacturers because they did not want to fight a monopoly law suit). As more data are accumulated, the electrical system (including the batteries) is far more durable than initially advertised.

Plus these batteries are continually recharged, at low voltages which extends battery life, so battery life is literally not now known. And hybrids are PZEV vehicles (practically zero emissions vehichles). The PZEV aspect has always been the primary attraction to me.

The Planning Magazine article information is absolutely true about electric cars. The batteries in electric cars are designed for high amperage over short periods of time, which leads to battery death. But that is NOT true for hybrids.

I also know that if someone wants to justify the additional expense of a hybrid on the basis of extra gas mileage, even at today's prices, it will take about 8 years to recoup the difference in price. Gas mileage to me is important. But not as important as the hybrid emissions issue and the hybrid driving experience. Hybrids are not pokey. It's just that the acceleration is constant, not like the hesitation and jump you get with a conventional gas-engine. In fact, the V-6 hybrid Accord and Camry are hot-rods. They fly and handle well (because of more evenly distributed weight). They are a blast to drive. I really like it when I can do something that is environmentally responsible and is still a lot of fun. Doesn't get much better than that.

[Future Mayor]

I will find the article and post some information about the sources.

[delts145]

RFPCME, hasn't there actually been a few significant advances in battery technology in the past couple of years for electric cars?

[wrendog]

The inaugural flight FROM Paris will land in SLC at around 2 today. The return flight is scheduled at 5. Pretty cool!

[RC14]

Originally Posted by Future Mayor

I will find the article and post some information about the sources.

I have heard that just the energy used to build a Toyota Prius is more then the energy used to build and drive a Hummer H2.
I'm sorry, I don't remember the source and can't vouch for the acuracy but I will look for it.

[Future Mayor]

Originally Posted by RC14

I have heard that just the energy used to build a Toyota Prius is more then the energy used to build and drive a Hummer H2.
I'm sorry, I don't remember the source and can't vouch for the acuracy but I will look for it.

I haven't been able to find the Planning article yet, of course. I did some research on the internet yesterday and come up with a couple of good sources, snopes.com which does a good job of dispelling urban legends agreed with exactly what you had to say RC14. http://message.snopes.com/showthread.php?t=8560

I was mistaken in my original statement saying that the disposal of the battery was environmentally damaging, apparently it is the manufacturing of the battery.

There was also a study done by CNW Research, (who knows how reputable they are but here it is), is says pretty much the same thing, this is were the snope.com moderator must have got most of his/her information. The link below has the article reposted by Impact Lab, (whoever that is).
http://www.impactlab.com/2007/03/14/...mental-damage/


There will continue to be conflicting reports that support both sides of the argument.

[delts145]

Originally Posted by wrendog

The inaugural flight FROM Paris will land in SLC at around 2 today. The return flight is scheduled at 5. Pretty cool!

Bon voyage - Delta begins nonstop flights from Salt Lake to Paris

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700231276,00.html


(Geoffrey McAllister, Deseret News)

Delta and state economic development officials could not have hoped for more from the only nonstop service by a U.S. carrier between the western U.S. and Paris.

... The route promises economic rewards for Utah's economy. Jason Perry, executive director of the Governor's Office of Economic Development, hinted that an announcement relating to a Utah company could be forthcoming by Saturday...

...Jeff Edwards, president of the Economic Development Corporation of Utah, returned Monday to Salt Lake from Europe, where he met with several companies that are setting up operations or are interested in expanding to Utah.
Edwards said he paid a visit to Sephora, a Paris-based retail beauty products chain that is building a 300,000-square-foot distribution center near the Salt Lake City airport. The center will create several hundred jobs, he said.
"One of the factors in coming to Salt Lake was that this direct service was going to be available."

.

[Future Mayor]

Can't wait to hear the announcement regarding a Utah Company.

Here's some additional somewhat related news, only in the fact that it too deals with Paris.


Salt Lake looks to Paris for possible traffic solution

Mayor Ralph Becker wants to make Salt Lake City more bike-able. So, what if you could just hop off FrontRunner or TRAX, rent a bike and ride it into downtown?

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=3457502


I am impressed with the initiative Mayor Becker has been taking to advance SLC as a first class city, while our size may be small we are really striving to add amenities of substantially larger cities. SLC may just become a walkable/transit friendly city after all. Here to you Mayor Becker

[Future Mayor]

Ok so here are my ideas on regional rail systems, for instance Salt Lake City needs to collaborate with Boise, Denver and Las Vegas to develop a high speed rail system between those cities, (by high speed I mean similar to European and Japanese high speed trains). Boise would then collaborate with Portland and Denver with Albuquerque, etc. Once passengers are at these major cities they use more local transportation to get to smaller cities. Some one from Seattle needing to be in Ogden takes the high speed rail down to SLC and Front Runner up to Ogden.

The red lines are lines that need to be developed in the West to provide an additional option rather than air.

The orange lines simply show other lines running in just a general direction with no specific points. I now realize the line running NE from Boise would be impossible so just ignore that one.



The interstate highway system was a revolutionary and needed idea when it was proposed and implemented. High speed rail needs to be the interstate system of this century.

[delts145]

I do wonder though of rail's practicality with the very high mileage hybrid/and electric cars now being put on the fast-track. General Motors has just made some very important announcements regarding their upcoming strategy. These new generation auto's are now going to go into major production within the next year to year and a half. Also, I could invest very reasonably in a very clean, converted CNG vehicle and pay .63 cents per gallon for fuel, and be infinitely cleaner than the current typical engine. Salt Lake City to L.A. already has a fantastic networks of CNG stations. I'm just wondering if near-future bus and auto engines are going to be far more practical than the costs of high speed rail, (at least here in the Western U.S.) Any thoughts?

[Future Mayor]

Originally Posted by delts145

I do wonder though of rail's practicality with the very high mileage hybrid/and electric cars now being put on the fast-track. General Motors has just made some very important announcements regarding their upcoming strategy. These new generation auto's are now going to go into major production within the next year to year and a half. Also, I could invest very reasonably in a very clean, converted CNG vehicle and pay .63 cents per gallon for fuel, and be infinitely cleaner than the current typical engine. Salt Lake City to L.A. already has a fantastic networks of CNG stations. I'm just wondering if near-future bus and auto engines are going to be far more practical than the costs of high speed rail, (at least here in the Western U.S.) Any thoughts?

I see it as a time factor combined with the cost of gas, not just the cost of gas. The high speed rails in Europe and Asia run at 124mph and faster, according to Wikipedia. SLC to Vegas on I-15 is 421 miles that would make the trip by rail just over 3 hrs. It is only 361 miles as the crow flies which would make the trip just under 3 hours. LA would be about a 5 1/2 hr train ride plus a few minutes to stop in Vegas. If I were headed to Vegas or LA for a weekend I would love a 3 or 5.5 hr train ride that was less money than a flight.

Not to mention Europe an Asia now use high speed rail for freight as well. One train engine puffing out exhaust to take freight from LA to SLC versus who know how many trucks running up I-15. Sure could reduce the amount of pollution in the air or at least limit the increase of semi truck pollution in the air. While Bio-diesel is a great fuel, with the newer truck emissions standards that have been put in place on new trucks, these trucks are unable to run on bio-diesel. While they will be burning less traditional fuel, they will be burning dirtier, than less efficient running on bio.

[arkhitektor]

Sadly, the US has no decent rail network, and if one were to be built, it would be in the east, not the sparsely populated western states.

[urbanboy]

I like your vision FutureMayor, but I am going to disagree with you when you say the freeway system was a needed system at that time. I think rail would have been a better alternative. The only reason it was pitched as a needed idea, was because Robert Moses stood to gain from the decision to implement it. The argument used was that it was needed for National Defense and Security. However, if there was some National Disaster the freeway would not work because of the congestion that would be created from panic.

[wrendog]

Is there any room for cars in your world, urbanboy? Not just cars, but beneficial things like freeways for car owners?

[i-215]

Originally Posted by urbanboy

I like your vision FutureMayor, but I am going to disagree with you when you say the freeway system was a needed system at that time. I think rail would have been a better alternative. The only reason it was pitched as a needed idea, was because Robert Moses stood to gain from the decision to implement it. The argument used was that it was needed for National Defense and Security. However, if there was some National Disaster the freeway would not work because of the congestion that would be created from panic.

Wow! You really are left of the dial! That's OK. If we all thought alike, we'd have no new ideas in this world.

Personally I think the Interstate System is the best thing to happen to this country. I don't find it coincidental that America's boom (1950-Present) fit in line with expanding infrastructure.

For America to continue growing we need to invest a lot of money into rail systems ... as well as add expand the current Interstate System.

The reason I say is because North America will always use cars. A good amount of commuting may shift to mass transit, but people will always use park and ride lots. I don't imagine Gasoline will be the primary fuel in 50 years, so I wouldn't plan on traffic dropping off. Even if it's simply a solar-charged electric car that only goes 40 miles ... Americans will always drive.

It's a right of passage that goes back to the "horse and buggy" days.

[i-215]

Some need expansion to the Interstate System:

(these routes will reduce the number of miles folks need to travel, conserving fuel)




Along the Wasatch Front, here's a freeway map we'll need to handle the new growth (in conjunction with similarly ambitious mass transit plans)





Finally, I'm surprised nobody is looking into this:

Heber City Bypass (Freeway)

[wrendog]

The Heber City bypass has been talked about for years.

[i-215]

Oh really? Good, because it's a no-brainer. Is there any info about it on the web?

[delts145]

Wren, you would be the resident expert on Heber, so correct me if I'm wrong. I'm thinking that their would be an incredible amount of resistence to this route through that area of the Valley.

[wrendog]

That would be the only place for it to go. That is the least amount of homes. I remember them talking about this bypass as a kid. But yes, there is always a resistance against this. Main street Heber will die with any type of bypass.

I don't think there are any official links or any plans, but it has been talked about.