High Speed Rail Forum!

[haljackey]

Major announcement expected in London for a line that will stretch from Windsor-Toronto.

I've been duped before. That 300 km/h London-Toronto route was promised before the last provincial election to be built in 10 years. No shovels in the ground yet, and the Liberals backtracked saying they only wanted to 'study' it.

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/...rail-line.html

http://toronto.ctvnews.ca/ontario-to...dsor-1.3420205

http://london.ctvnews.ca/wynne-to-ma...ndon-1.3420068

[ldoto]

We will see what they say ??? That will change the whole southwest Ontario!!!!👍🏼👍🏼

[jammer139]

Its pre election silly season. The Liberals pulled the same tactic last election in an attempt to get votes in SW Ontario. Expect more of this sort of stuff as the months pass.

[Stevo26]

Originally Posted by jammer139

Its pre election silly season. The Liberals pulled the same tactic last election in an attempt to get votes in SW Ontario. Expect more of this sort of stuff as the months pass.

Yep. That's exactly how I'm looking at this. The latest report says that as many as 10 million people might be using HSR, by 2041.

2041 is 24 years from now. What they're really saying is, "We're going to go through the motions of studying this yet again, but it won't get built until 2041... or later... or probably never." I'll be long dead by then.

I think the real stumbling block is this. Ontario is addicted to gasoline tax revenues. It also relies upon the auto industry for tax revenues and the generation of economic activity.

A high-speed rail line would result in significant reductions in gasoline tax revenues. It would also mean fewer cars being built and reductions in auto-related tax revenues as well as economic activity.

But not building a high-speed rail line is not an option, either. Ontario's population is expected to grow to nearly 20 - 30 million over the next 25 - 30 years.

The existing highway networks, i.e., 401, 403 and 407 are already clogged. There is no more room to build additional highways.

Most of the population growth is going to happen in the Golden Horseshoe, which encompasses the GTA, and in the heart of southwestern Ontario itself, namely the Golden Triangle area (KW-Cambridge) and in London.

All of those cities are located close enough to each other and the Golden Horseshoe to make high-speed rail both viable and necessary. In fact, the constellation of cities in this region greatly resembles the clustering of small, medium and large cities seen in central Europe, where high-speed rail works very well.

All that Ontario is doing right now is kicking the can down the road in an attempt to delay the inevitable. And the Liberals are hoping that people in SW Ontario who want high-speed rail will fall for this tactic once again.

[GreatTallNorth2]

This is good news. Even if it's been proposed a million times, it keeps people talking about HSR in Ontario. When there is an election, it will be a major issue and the PCs and NDPs will have to take a stand on HSR. If you are running for Premier in Ontario you will have to say 1) I don't want HSR in Ontario 2) I want HSR in Ontario but don't like this plan or 3) I want HSR in Ontario and here's my plan. If the Liberals win the next election, they will have to deliver and build it. This would be a game changer for London for sure. It's also interesting that they have added Chatham to this. Great news for them too.

[warpus]

Originally Posted by Stevo26

I think the real stumbling block is this. Ontario is addicted to gasoline tax revenues. It also relies upon the auto industry for tax revenues and the generation of economic activity.

The problem is that Toronto is growing rather rapidly and the 401 corridor is going to be experiencing more and more traffic jams as a result. Not too recently it was still the world's widest highway, but it is not good enough as a way to move people through Toronto and elsewhere. We need to get cars off the roads, especially given Toronto's projected growth rate, and high speed rail would help alleviate that. Toronto isn't really sustainable moving forward without some major infrastructure investments, and this is one of them.

I remain skeptical about this, given all the previous plans, but it does seem that it's a requirement rather than a "would be nice to have" type of luxury at this stage.

[K85]

Ehhhhhhhhhh as a life long liberal / ndp guy, fuck the liberals... lies after lies after lies. When you finally start hiring people to dig the holes and put in lines, then I'll buy into what you're selling

[Dupcheck]

The High Speed Rail would also naturally cool the GTA housing bubble, and increase the value of the homes in London.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kitche...port-1.4123183

[HillStreetBlues]

Originally Posted by GreatTallNorth2

This is good news. Even if it's been proposed a million times, it keeps people talking about HSR in Ontario. When there is an election, it will be a major issue and the PCs and NDPs will have to take a stand on HSR. If you are running for Premier in Ontario you will have to say 1) I don't want HSR in Ontario 2) I want HSR in Ontario but don't like this plan or 3) I want HSR in Ontario and here's my plan. If the Liberals win the next election, they will have to deliver and build it. This would be a game changer for London for sure. It's also interesting that they have added Chatham to this. Great news for them too.

At best, they have to perform an EA. They don't have to deliver anything. As for the other candidates, I would imagine they'll come out in favour of HSR insofar as it becomes an election issue (I don't think it will, compared to pharmacare and hydro).

Still, if you care about infrastructure, you almost have to vote Liberal, in spite of everything else. They offer the best chance at making the investments in infrastructure that we need.

[Spoofy]

.

[jammer139]

Don't agree at all that the only political choice is the Liberals.

The simple reality is HSR will only become a reality if there is economic numbers to justify it. Government alone cannot built and operate this megaproject. The Private sector must be involved. The other parties can also accomplish this as easily as the Liberals.

In the end HSR is not an election issue in the coming years as there is far more important things that need to be addressed such as trade, energy and healthcare.

Originally Posted by Spoofy

I understand the negativity around here after this announcement, but can we all please take a second to look on the bright side? At least the Liberals are taking their time with this mega-project and exhausting all of the options before spending our hard earned tax payer money.

The original plan had a cost of ~$15billion for the Toronto-London phase. The new plan costs ~$4billion for that same phase. The first plan was unrealistic and I myself am very happy that they didn't just go ahead and waste our money, especially considering that the second plan is only 10-15 minutes longer for that same distance!!

Of course I hope that the Liberals aren't just using these announcements to make us all believe that they will do it, and instead, they really DO do it. Sadly, as was stated by another commenter, our only real political choice for getting Ontario the infrastructure investment that it needs is the Liberals. If we want to have any hope of getting the transportation systems that all of us in Ontario deserves then we need to continue putting pressure on the Liberals to deliver on their promises.

[north 42]

Originally Posted by Stevo26

Yep. That's exactly how I'm looking at this. The latest report says that as many as 10 million people might be using HSR, by 2041.

2041 is 24 years from now. What they're really saying is, "We're going to go through the motions of studying this yet again, but it won't get built until 2041... or later... or probably never." I'll be long dead by then.

I think the real stumbling block is this. Ontario is addicted to gasoline tax revenues. It also relies upon the auto industry for tax revenues and the generation of economic activity.

A high-speed rail line would result in significant reductions in gasoline tax revenues. It would also mean fewer cars being built and reductions in auto-related tax revenues as well as economic activity.

But not building a high-speed rail line is not an option, either. Ontario's population is expected to grow to nearly 20 - 30 million over the next 25 - 30 years.

The existing highway networks, i.e., 401, 403 and 407 are already clogged. There is no more room to build additional highways.

Most of the population growth is going to happen in the Golden Horseshoe, which encompasses the GTA, and in the heart of southwestern Ontario itself, namely the Golden Triangle area (KW-Cambridge) and in London.

All of those cities are located close enough to each other and the Golden Horseshoe to make high-speed rail both viable and necessary. In fact, the constellation of cities in this region greatly resembles the clustering of small, medium and large cities seen in central Europe, where high-speed rail works very well.

All that Ontario is doing right now is kicking the can down the road in an attempt to delay the inevitable. And the Liberals are hoping that people in SW Ontario who want high-speed rail will fall for this tactic once again.

Windsor and area is also growing quickly right now, and has had one of the lowest unemployment rates in Southwestern Ontario for a while now, 4.9% currently, so I wouldn't count Windsor out of the potential high growth areas in the Southwest.
region.
And don't forget the 4.3M people right across the river from Windsor that will be filling many of the seats on the trains. This will essentially be connecting Toronto and Detroit with Southwestern Ontario in between! Detroit cannot be taken out of the equation simply because it lies across the border.

[haljackey]

Maybe one day we'll see a line go all the way from Chicago to Quebec City.

That would take a huge strain off airports and highways, although you'd need the lines to have stops at airports or a reliable connection from the station to airport.

[MolsonExport]

If it doesn't get built, I propose that the politicians getting photo ops for this never-ending, chronic HSR announcement be roasted very slowly over the dying embers of a bonfire.

[Truenorth00]

London will not have great prospects without this line. Yet, this line will not be a votable for issue anyone in the next 20 years. It's not going to make or break anybody's vote. And it's why I'm skeptical of it actually getting built.

[jammer139]

Let's be visionary and try to look into the future 2050 and beyond.

The need for high speed rail I believe will make a lot of sense. It needs to be electric no diesel. It needs to run from Windsor thru to Quebec City and touch the major urban centers via their intramodel hubs. These would be the airports with Subway, LRT, BRT links into the downtown cores. In the case of Toronto the station for the bullet train needs to be at Pearson with a proper subway link. The right of way across the north of Toronto is already there with the 407 corridor and another natural hub at the new subway extension out to the Vaughan terminus along Jane. Here in London the station needs to be at London Airport again with intramodal hub linkage into the downtown.

This same design across the entire route to simplify the right of ways and massive expropriation costs. HSR cannot have any level crossings so under/over passes for everything is 100% required. Bridges over rivers and creeks will run up the costs even more.

The track must be twined with many stretches even having 3 tracks. The HSR system can be used to carry more then just passengers. Freight of all kinds should also be moved where it makes sense. Fedex and UPS's of the world would be potential big customers.

[kaiserLDN]

When I see legit work being done and some sort of shovels in the ground to start the process I will believe it... Until then I don't.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by kaiserLDN

When I see legit work being done and some sort of shovels in the ground to start the process I will believe it... Until then I don't.

word.

[warpus]

Originally Posted by kaiserLDN

When I see legit work being done and some sort of shovels in the ground to start the process I will believe it... Until then I don't.

Same here.

They said that it will take at least 4 years of assessment and planning before construction can begin. So we likely won't be seeing any real confirmation of these high speed rail plans until well after 2020

[K85]

Took a VIA recently from London to Toronto and back. I must admit that I do like train travel, but fuck me, the cost of almost $200 is too much. These crazy lying asshats won't build anything in the next 15 years (heard it here first!), and if they do, I HIGHLY doubt it'll be cheaper than VIA. What I would do for a faster train though.... Think the max we hit was 128km/h according to the gps. If we skipped all the small stations and only hit those proposed, it'd be worth a trip at least once.