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  #1161  
Old Posted May 23, 2018, 1:46 AM
Sheba Sheba is offline
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Originally Posted by Spr0ckets View Post
Looking at that plan, it's a little weird how the smallest tower ended up with the largest (consolidated) podium retail space.

But then again, I suppose not too surprising given that SaveOn (now PriceSmart) was an integral anchor tenant of the original Station Square.
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Originally Posted by officedweller View Post
WRT PriceSmart, it makes sense that the large footprint retail unit is on the site with only one tower, as there's less intrusion (by elevator cores, lobbies, etc.) into the contiguous space.
It's only Site 2 / 3 that has two towers on one podium - the rest of the site is one tower per podium. I'm not surprised they'd want the grocery store fronting Kingsway instead of being further into the site as I'm sure they want to limit the number of cars in a 'pedestrian friendly' area.

I'm more surprised by the fact that they still only have two of the four restaurants in their 'restaurant row', and that the remaining podiums have so many small retail spots compared to what's open now. Their latest pdf is here.
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  #1162  
Old Posted May 23, 2018, 3:29 AM
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Ah, thanks.

WRT PriceSmart, could also be due to the phasing, or maybe because the Site 4 backed onto Station Street they could afford to put at-grade loading and a blank wall there (whereas the Sites 5 and 6 would need shallow perimeter retail (like various Safeways) to liven up the streetfronts.
It's location isn't very visible from the Mackay/Kingsway corner, is it?

I could see consolidation of the Site 5 and 6 storefronts to make larger units - assuming Anthem retained the spaces (not strata).
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  #1163  
Old Posted May 23, 2018, 6:12 AM
Spr0ckets Spr0ckets is offline
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Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
It's only Site 2 / 3 that has two towers on one podium - the rest of the site is one tower per podium. I'm not surprised they'd want the grocery store fronting Kingsway instead of being further into the site as I'm sure they want to limit the number of cars in a 'pedestrian friendly' area.

I'm more surprised by the fact that they still only have two of the four restaurants in their 'restaurant row', and that the remaining podiums have so many small retail spots compared to what's open now. Their latest pdf is here.
It's probably easier to lease out smaller retail units than larger consolidated spots ala the restaurants or even an anchor tenant space.

Consider how much trouble Metropolis has had finding a tenant or a taker for the old Zellers/Target space in the mall, for example.

Even closer to Silvercity on the second floor there's the old restaurant spot (admittedly smaller) that's been vacant for how many years now?

Does anyone know if there's going to be any retail or office spaces on the second and third floors of the podiums of sites 5 and 6 or is it going to be residential/amenities?

Last edited by Spr0ckets; May 23, 2018 at 7:11 PM.
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  #1164  
Old Posted May 23, 2018, 7:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Spr0ckets View Post
It's probably easier to lease out smaller retail units than larger consolidated spots ala the restaurants or even an anchor tenant space.

Consider how much trouble Metropolis has had finding a tenant or a taker for the old Zellers/Target space in the mall, for example.

Even closer to Silvercity on the second floor there's the old restaurant spot (admittedly smaller) that's been vacant for how many years now?

Do anyone know if there's going to be any retail or office spaces on the second and third floors of the podiums of sites 5 and 6 or is it going to be residential/amenities?
I don't expect to see another PriceSmart sized retail space - but those spaces in sites 5 and 6 are *small*. Even having the smaller ones join so there's half as many would still have them smaller than the restaurant spaces.

I'm with you that trying to lease out overly large spaces is tough nowadays (I still think the Target space should be cut in half and even that might be tough to fill). The 'large' PriceSmart here is smaller than that.

As far as I know the plan is still to have retail on the ground floor and then two levels of office space in the podiums. If you massively zoom in on the pdf you can see 'office lobby' marked on the sites.
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  #1165  
Old Posted May 23, 2018, 7:10 PM
Spr0ckets Spr0ckets is offline
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Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
I don't expect to see another PriceSmart sized retail space - but those spaces in sites 5 and 6 are *small*. Even having the smaller ones join so there's half as many would still have them smaller than the restaurant spaces.

I'm with you that trying to lease out overly large spaces is tough nowadays (I still think the Target space should be cut in half and even that might be tough to fill). The 'large' PriceSmart here is smaller than that.

As far as I know the plan is still to have retail on the ground floor and then two levels of office space in the podiums. If you massively zoom in on the pdf you can see 'office lobby' marked on the sites.

Don't forget that the Target space is TWO floors.
Cutting it in half wouldn't be enough.

They typically lease it out for seasonal stuff like Halloween costume kiosk sales and stuff and even then it barely takes up one third of one floor.

I think if they had their way, they'd just knock the whole thing down and place Metro office tower #4 there.
Unfortunately for them, there's T & T in the basement below it along with quite a bit of mall and office parkade below, and adjacent to it which would make such an undertaking quite complicated (and overly expensive) to put it mildly.

Still, Shape are going to put a tower on top of the Walmart and London Drugs at Lougheed mall sometime in a future phase of the Lougheed city project, so it's not entirely undoable.

I could see them enticing T & T with a ground level anchor space (with street level access on Central Blvd.) in a future development as part of the podium for such a tower as an redevelopment of that part of the mall.
But I believe T&T's current footprint is actually larger than the single level footprint of the old Target space. So that would be a problem.
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  #1166  
Old Posted May 23, 2018, 8:06 PM
officedweller officedweller is online now
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Yeah, redevelopment of the Target site is probably complicated by the T&T being on the basement level.
They can't do a wholesale rebuild with an office tower, etc, unless they evict T&T.
T&T has been in that space for a long time - i.e. if I recall correctly, prior to Ivanhoe Cambridge buying "Metrotown Centre" and consolidating the malls.
So there may not be a demolition clause in their lease, and without an alternate space to offer to T&T, they may be stuck until the expiration of T&T's lease.

That shouldn't prevent Ivanhoe Cambridge from renovating and subdividing the upper levels of Target, however, as other shopping centres have done - but maybe that clashes with their long term plans (?)

i.e. pure speculation, but Target is across the access road from MetroTower III (even though that was a money loser), so it's a logical spot for another office tower so long as the bus loop remains in operation (without going to the Kingsway side of the mall).
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  #1167  
Old Posted May 23, 2018, 8:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Spr0ckets View Post
Don't forget that the Target space is TWO floors.
Cutting it in half wouldn't be enough.

They typically lease it out for seasonal stuff like Halloween costume kiosk sales and stuff and even then it barely takes up one third of one floor.
When I wrote cut it in half I meant exactly that - make it two single floor stores, and yeah even then it would be tough to fill.

When Spirit Halloween has rented out the lower level they actually have the whole floor and only have a small portion open to customers (with excess storage space behind that).

Speaking of which, any time they've rented out a portion it's always been the lower level. Is there something going on that they can't rent out the upper level?


Quote:
Originally Posted by officedweller View Post
Yeah, redevelopment of the Target site is probably complicated by the T&T being on the basement level.
They can't do a wholesale rebuild with an office tower, etc, unless they evict T&T.
T&T has been in that space for a long time - i.e. if I recall correctly, prior to Ivanhoe Cambridge buying "Metrotown Centre" and consolidating the malls.
You'd think they'd want to do *something* with the Target space while they wait out T&T as well as what's happening with the Sears site at the other end of the hallway. Leaving it sitting empty while occasionally renting out the lower level doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense.
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  #1168  
Old Posted May 23, 2018, 9:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Spr0ckets View Post
I think if they had their way, they'd just knock the whole thing down and place Metro office tower #4 there.
Unfortunately for them, there's T & T in the basement below it along with quite a bit of mall and office parkade below, and adjacent to it which would make such an undertaking quite complicated (and overly expensive) to put it mildly.

Still, Shape are going to put a tower on top of the Walmart and London Drugs at Lougheed mall sometime in a future phase of the Lougheed city project, so it's not entirely undoable.

I could see them enticing T & T with a ground level anchor space (with street level access on Central Blvd.) in a future development as part of the podium for such a tower as an redevelopment of that part of the mall.
But I believe T&T's current footprint is actually larger than the single level footprint of the old Target space. So that would be a problem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by officedweller View Post
Yeah, redevelopment of the Target site is probably complicated by the T&T being on the basement level.
They can't do a wholesale rebuild with an office tower, etc, unless they evict T&T.
T&T has been in that space for a long time - i.e. if I recall correctly, prior to Ivanhoe Cambridge buying "Metrotown Centre" and consolidating the malls.
So there may not be a demolition clause in their lease, and without an alternate space to offer to T&T, they may be stuck until the expiration of T&T's lease.

That shouldn't prevent Ivanhoe Cambridge from renovating and subdividing the upper levels of Target, however, as other shopping centres have done - but maybe that clashes with their long term plans (?)

i.e. pure speculation, but Target is across the access road from MetroTower III (even though that was a money loser), so it's a logical spot for another office tower so long as the bus loop remains in operation (without going to the Kingsway side of the mall).
Part 2

I question if the mall wants to build another office tower anytime soon, esp at this location. It'll be a really hard location to redevelop without completely starting from scratch, and even then it won't be easy. Plus the podiums in Station Square and along Beresford all have office space in them. Is it even worth adding any more?

I'd be interested in if they'll do anything with the parkade at that end (between the Target space and the Bonsor towers). That seems like a prime spot to redevelop.
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  #1169  
Old Posted May 23, 2018, 9:04 PM
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level 1 or the lower level has a street entrance so it's probably more appealing to temporary shops than the upper level. Plus the lower level is on the same level as Forever 21, Uniqlo, H&M etc. more foot traffic on that level in general.
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  #1170  
Old Posted May 23, 2018, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by SpongeG View Post
level 1 or the lower level has a street entrance so it's probably more appealing to temporary shops than the upper level. Plus the lower level is on the same level as Forever 21, Uniqlo, H&M etc. more foot traffic on that level in general.
The lower level of Target didn't have a street entrance - the upper level does. Meanwhile the mall rents out the lower level and keeps the upper level closed.


My bad - the street entrance is on the lower level. Still the street entrances have been blocked off when that floor has been rented out.

Last edited by Sheba; May 23, 2018 at 10:34 PM.
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  #1171  
Old Posted May 24, 2018, 5:00 AM
Spr0ckets Spr0ckets is offline
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Originally Posted by officedweller View Post
Yeah, redevelopment of the Target site is probably complicated by the T&T being on the basement level.
They can't do a wholesale rebuild with an office tower, etc, unless they evict T&T.
T&T has been in that space for a long time - i.e. if I recall correctly, prior to Ivanhoe Cambridge buying "Metrotown Centre" and consolidating the malls.
So there may not be a demolition clause in their lease, and without an alternate space to offer to T&T, they may be stuck until the expiration of T&T's lease.

That shouldn't prevent Ivanhoe Cambridge from renovating and subdividing the upper levels of Target, however, as other shopping centres have done - but maybe that clashes with their long term plans (?)

i.e. pure speculation, but Target is across the access road from MetroTower III (even though that was a money loser), so it's a logical spot for another office tower so long as the bus loop remains in operation (without going to the Kingsway side of the mall).

Yeah, that's what I was hinting at.

There had been talk of them building a MetroTower IV but the original proposed (or desired) location had been where the current Bus Loop is right now, and they proposed relocating the Bus Loop to the south side of Central Blvd. and Beresford.

Of course the city shut that idea down pretty quick given the plans they have themselves for pedestrian street plaza on Beresford avenue.

So the talk then shifted to the only feasible location available to them at that side of the mall which would be the old Target location (now a certifiable money-loser in terms of retail tenancy).

They have plans for building a mixed-used residential-retail-office tower, but that would most likely be located in the northern (Kingsway) parking lot in front of the Superstore and Silvercity.

Long-term I really don't see them leaving that Target space as a seasonal Halloween partial use sort of situation and continuing to lose money on it like that so eventually something's gonna have to give.
And you're probably on to something with the expiry of the T&T lease.
Second only to the Superstore, it's probably the mall's most highly trafficked retail location (no surprise there), so any talk of relocating them in lieu of a redevelopment for an office tower at the site is probably a non-starter.
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  #1172  
Old Posted May 24, 2018, 5:13 AM
Spr0ckets Spr0ckets is offline
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Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
Part 2

I question if the mall wants to build another office tower anytime soon, esp at this location. It'll be a really hard location to redevelop without completely starting from scratch, and even then it won't be easy. Plus the podiums in Station Square and along Beresford all have office space in them. Is it even worth adding any more?
It depends on what sort of office space it will be in those podiums.
It's a safe bet that any new office tower built from scratch will have triple A (AAA) office space to lease out, which is the only sort that especially big companies and businesses like the Rogers and the like, will seek to lease.

But there must be a market for it since pretty much all the new developments in the area are including some component of office space to lease out.
Don't forget that even the Concord Sear development includes an ENTIRE tower (Tower#7) that will be totally office space and usage (and most likely triple A class).
Even Sun Towers' (on Beresford) entire podium is going to be office space, so I guess the market indicates that businesses are interested in the location.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
I'd be interested in if they'll do anything with the parkade at that end (between the Target space and the Bonsor towers). That seems like a prime spot to redevelop.
That's true.
The only question then would be what to do with all the parking (as in, where to place it or replace it).
Any new tower or development will need parking of its own.
And that parking already services the mall users and is typically full up especially on weekends and most evenings.

And there's only so far underground you can go with levels of parking.

Add to the fact that the mall is already going to lose a ton of parking space when the Concord Sears project gets off the ground and they develop those northern parking lots, then you're looking at a big problem for people driving in to shop at the mall looking for parking.
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  #1173  
Old Posted May 24, 2018, 7:17 PM
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I'm not convinced Concord will follow thru with building an office tower. I hope to be proven wrong but I imagine they will delay, delay, delay, build out all the residential first. They try to change the zoning and have the office space switched to residential, if that fails they will try for mixed use, and/or sell off the leftover commercial density to some one else.
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  #1174  
Old Posted May 24, 2018, 7:24 PM
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With a site as big as Target, they could build a shorter large floorplate tower to appeal to tech companies.
If they demo the parkade and Target, the combined area could provide a lot of underground parking (i.e. 5 levels?)
Brentwood goes down for 6 levels of parking (but over a wider area).

Yeah, I was wondering - if the T&T lease expires soon (within 5 years) then maybe wait it out rather than incurring the expense of redeveloping with only retail for such a short period?

From Wiki - 25 years ago....

Quote:
In 1993, the first T & T was opened in Burnaby's Metropolis at Metrotown, a shopping centre in the Metrotown area in Metro Vancouver.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T_%26_T_Supermarket
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  #1175  
Old Posted May 24, 2018, 7:42 PM
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That was just after Woodwards closed. The old Woodwards took up all 3 levels, it was a nice store.
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  #1176  
Old Posted May 24, 2018, 8:24 PM
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Originally Posted by jlousa View Post
I'm not convinced Concord will follow thru with building an office tower. I hope to be proven wrong but I imagine they will delay, delay, delay, build out all the residential first. They try to change the zoning and have the office space switched to residential, if that fails they will try for mixed use, and/or sell off the leftover commercial density to some one else.
I'm not convinced that Concord will start building anytime soon. It's only showing as second reading on the master plan (and then each phase would have to go through planning) and the latest news on it is from last year. Plus has anything happened on the lawsuit(s) yet?

From an old news blurb:

Quote:
In 2013, Sears Canada issued a news release describing its intentions to turn the site into a massive mixed-use development that would include residential and office high-rise towers with retail on the ground floor, including a new store for Sears.

Two years later, according to court documents, Concord Kingsway and Sears closed a $100 million deal for to enter into a joint venture to develop the site.

...

Meanwhile, a different lawsuit over the matter that started two years ago is still unfolding in B.C. Supreme Court.
Now it's 2018 and there's a tentative master plan - that's it.
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  #1177  
Old Posted May 24, 2018, 8:31 PM
Spr0ckets Spr0ckets is offline
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Originally Posted by jlousa View Post
I'm not convinced Concord will follow thru with building an office tower. I hope to be proven wrong but I imagine they will delay, delay, delay, build out all the residential first. They try to change the zoning and have the office space switched to residential, if that fails they will try for mixed use, and/or sell off the leftover commercial density to some one else.
If I had to guess, I'd say that that's probably the reason that that tower portion is phased as the last phase of the project.

There's a long time between now (or whenever the project kicks off with phase 1) and when they get to the start of that phase, so anything could happen in the intervening period.
The real estate market could change, the overall economy could change as well, and along with all of it, they could always re-apply for a rezoning to make it mixed use and have more residential and perhaps even something like a hotel component.

Even assuming they're able to get phase 1 off the ground by say, late next year or early 2020, then you'd probably still looking at anywhere between 12-15 years at a minimum, before you get to that final phase.

That's quite a long time.

So you well could be right.
They have a lot of flexibility with all that time.
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  #1178  
Old Posted May 24, 2018, 8:39 PM
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Originally Posted by jlousa View Post
I'm not convinced Concord will follow thru with building an office tower. I hope to be proven wrong but I imagine they will delay, delay, delay, build out all the residential first. They try to change the zoning and have the office space switched to residential, if that fails they will try for mixed use, and/or sell off the leftover commercial density to some one else.
That's what they did at the Cambie Bridgehead, after transferring and changing the purely office zoning from the Costco/Spectrum site
(which was supposed to be an office node) to mixed use zoning at the Cambie Bridgehead sites.
(Other than selling the Pivotal Building site to PCI)

That also left the GM Place/Rogers Arena office tower stranded on its own.
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