Sacramento - New Arena Plan

[foxmtbr]

^ So we need to prove them wrong and get this passed!

[Schmoe]

I was talking to a buddy of mine about this. He's against the tax increase and use of public funds for the arena. One thing he griped about is that he doesn't want to pay that much extra when he buys a new car (silly, IMO). When I mentioned this argument to someone else, he said he was under the impression that when you buy big-ticket items like cars that you don't pay sales tax, but rather something he called a "use tax." Then he admitted he wasn't sure about that and we speculated a "use tax" and "sales tax" might just be two names for the same thing.

Anyway, I'm posing the question for those of you who seem to know more about this stuff. Is there a such thing as a "use tax," and if so, is it different/separate from a "sales tax?"

[joninsac]

I think the use tax is a tax placed on items bought out of state, on the internet for example, for which sales tax was not charged at the time of purchase. I think we're supposed to pay it at income tax time. Could be thinking of something else, though.

[brandon12]

Use tax means when the government bends you over and "uses" you.

[joninsac]

I guess all taxes should be called use taxes then!

[Web]

All this tax will do is on big ticket items.....people will go to Roseville to buy the exact same car one could buy on Fulton avenue and save a few $$$$.

This could be the death of shaky Fulton Ave New cars......


and maybe go to Best Buy in Roseville and buy a Fridge instrad of Natomas or Arden Fair or Folsom........

a few bucks saved adds up.......

people will sometimes go out of the way and waste more gas and $$$ to save a $$ here and there......

Thats my opinion.......

I say there are more important votes come election time......

[creamcityleo79]

Originally Posted by Web

All this tax will do is on big ticket items.....people will go to Roseville to buy the exact same car one could buy on Fulton avenue and save a few $$$$.

This could be the death of shaky Fulton Ave New cars......


and maybe go to Best Buy in Roseville and buy a Fridge instrad of Natomas or Arden Fair or Folsom........

a few bucks saved adds up.......

people will sometimes go out of the way and waste more gas and $$$ to save a $$ here and there......

Thats my opinion.......

I say there are more important votes come election time......

1.2 million people(the CURRENT population of Sac County) paying an avg of $50/year for this tax is at LEAST $60 million a year!...that's $900 million over a 15 year period and $1.8 billion over a 30 year period. I can't remember if it's a 15-year tax or a 30-year tax!?!?...either way, it's going to work!

[foxmtbr]

^ It's 15 years

Originally Posted by Web

All this tax will do is on big ticket items.....people will go to Roseville to buy the exact same car one could buy on Fulton avenue and save a few $$$$.

This could be the death of shaky Fulton Ave New cars......


and maybe go to Best Buy in Roseville and buy a Fridge instrad of Natomas or Arden Fair or Folsom........

a few bucks saved adds up.......

people will sometimes go out of the way and waste more gas and $$$ to save a $$ here and there......

Thats my opinion.......

I say there are more important votes come election time......

If the fulton auto dealers and folsom automall are smart, they'll shave a bit off of their prices to cover the tax, and keep their customers, while still making ridiculous amounts of money. I don't think it'll impact those stores that much.

[brandon12]

^In reality, many car purchases are actually impulse purchases. You're driving down the road and your wife says "let's just look" Two hours later, you're driving home in a new car. At least that's what happened to me. I really think the quarter percent sales tax will be on people's mind for a few months, but in the end, the difference in price on a $20K car is what, $50? What is that, a tank of gas? It's unlikely someone is gonna drive to the Roseville automall to save $50 on a $20K car.

Instead, what's more likely to happen is that people from Yolo, Sutter, Yuba, Placer, El Dorado, Solano and San Juaquin counties will come to Sacramento county and spend money on drinks, dinner, entertainment, sports and hotels. I 100% guarantee it that Sac county will see more sales tax revenue COMING IN to the city than going out. Add to that the increase in property tax revenue generated by a ramp up in the development of the railyard disctrict, and the county of Sac walks away a winner BIG TIME. Anyone who disagrees with this is either ignorant or lying to themselves.

[foxmtbr]

^ Exactly. No one cares in the long run if their car is $50 more. And I know what you mean about about the impulse buying, we almost ended up with a Lexus last year, just on some random day while driving down Fulton.

I also agree that the city will end up with tons of money, and this is what people don't realize. People haven't seen Thomas Enterprises' plan for the railyards, and all the development that will occur. People think that they are just plopping an arena there, with nothing but dirt around it. If people could understand that aspect, we'd have ourselves a lot more yaysayers.

[snfenoc]

Originally Posted by joninsac

Nah, not really. You'd just be recognizing both sides of the issue. You yourself have already recognized that keeping the Kings and building an arena outweighs the negative aspects.

I said keeping the Kings and building an arena outweigh the opposing "excuses". My philosophy of government is much, much more than an excuse. Those who don't share my philosophy should probably vote "Yes", because all other reasons to vote "No" seem miniscule when compared to losing the Kings and missing out an A+ venue near downtown.

[brandon12]

^snfenoc: while I respect (and share) much of your philosophy re: government, here's the deal: you can either live in a vacuum in which conservative fiscal theories sound nice and compelling but don't actually work or achieve their goals in a liberal society like Sacramento, or you can live in the real world, where reasonable fiscal conservatives have to pick and choose which taxes are MOST likely to generate a return for the public. I believe (and I think you do too) that this measure is exactly one of those taxes.

[creamcityleo79]

Originally Posted by brandon12

^snfenoc: while I respect (and share) much of your philosophy re: government, here's the deal: you can either live in a vacuum in which conservative fiscal theories sound nice and compelling but don't actually work or achieve their goals in a liberal society like Sacramento, or you can live in the real world, where reasonable fiscal conservatives have to pick and choose which taxes are MOST likely to generate a return for the public. I believe (and I think you do too) that this measure is exactly one of those taxes.

I'm liking you more with every post brandon!!!...and I even suspect that you may be a Republican!...which is SO not me. But, you're smart...and you're reasonable!!!!

[snfenoc]

Brandon, deep down in that section of your heart, which transcends vanities like shiny new arenas, sports teams, living in a 53-story tower, and eating at the nicest restaurants, you know I am right.

I assure you, I don't live in a conservative vacuum (Well, Davis is a vacuum, but it sure as hell ain’t conservative). Believe me, I am fully aware of what is going on in the “real world”. I simply choose not to accept it as OK.

Brandon, I have a two-part question for you: Why am I being dismissed for wanting to defeat socialism, and why are you are being lauded for compromising with it? Heck, you are not even compromising in the right direction; you are actually increasing socialism. You realize that, don't you? I guess you are willing to dance with the devil to get a shiny new arena, but I am not. No, I would rather do without the fun stuff and shoot for the ideal.

The frequently used "real world" argument is definitely a good one; it does not take much thought, effort or resolve - definitely an American invention. In addition, the "real world" argument gives one a casual excuse to compromise his or her values. Brandon, you know this is wrong (you even admitted to sharing most of my views about government), but the carrot dangled in front of you is just too tempting, isn’t it? So you grab it, justifying your decision with reassurances like, "It's just an insignificant tax. At least it is going to something I want," and "Sometimes you have to compromise your values to get what you want." You then label yourself as a “reasonable fiscal conservative”, implying people like me are unreasonable. How convenient. Well, I am perfectly happy being unreasonable in your book (especially in neuhicky's book – an absolute confirmation I am correct ).

As I said earlier, I don't live in a vacuum. In fact, I'm living off my last paycheck, while trying to find a new job, looking for a new place to live, and studying for the Dental Admission Test (it's about as hard as the MCAT). Oh, and I will also start taking a general psychology class (insert joke about my mental state here) in late August. This is not a sob story; I'll be fine. The point: I'm certainly in touch with the realities of life thank you very much. I am not off in Never Never Land.

I must also disagree with the notion my beliefs are impossible. All it takes is one vote to change things. That is what America is about. “That’s just the way it is, some things will never change.” Don’t you believe it.

I realize my ramblings on this issue tick many of the forumers off. Too bad. I won’t remain silent in the name of getting along or winning a popularity contest. Instead, I choose to put my ideas out there, because this arena thing is not insignificant. It’s about adding to the existing mountain of socialism (is it not amazing how well incrementalism works?), which infects this city, this county, this state, and this country, or standing up and saying "No!" As expected even the so-called conservatives (RINO’s) in this forum are high off the dreams of shiny new arenas, pretty towers, walkable streets, urbanism, and city pride (What goes before a fall?). Well, someone has to offer an opposing view. It might as well be me.





“Gosh, snfenoc! You are such an extremist”
Yeah, I am. That’s OK, because extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.

[brandon12]

^You're a smart kid Snfenoc. You'll do well in school. And then, the real world beckons.



(Relax- it's a joke!)

[SacTownAndy]

^ I know this is a totally minor point, but when you buy a car from a dealership, don't you pay sales tax based on the county you live in rather than where you're buying it? Or am I thinking of something else?

[brandon12]

^I'm pretty sure you pay the tax to the county in which the dealership is physically located.

[innov8]

[creamcityleo79]

Originally Posted by snfenoc

Brandon, deep down in that section of your heart, which transcends vanities like shiny new arenas, sports teams, living in a 53-story tower, and eating at the nicest restaurants, you know I am right.

I assure you, I don't live in a conservative vacuum (Well, Davis is a vacuum, but it sure as hell ain’t conservative). Believe me, I am fully aware of what is going on in the “real world”. I simply choose not to accept it as OK.

Brandon, I have a two-part question for you: Why am I being dismissed for wanting to defeat socialism, and why are you are being lauded for compromising with it? Heck, you are not even compromising in the right direction; you are actually increasing socialism. You realize that, don't you? I guess you are willing to dance with the devil to get a shiny new arena, but I am not. No, I would rather do without the fun stuff and shoot for the ideal.

The frequently used "real world" argument is definitely a good one; it does not take much thought, effort or resolve - definitely an American invention. In addition, the "real world" argument gives one a casual excuse to compromise his or her values. Brandon, you know this is wrong (you even admitted to sharing most of my views about government), but the carrot dangled in front of you is just too tempting, isn’t it? So you grab it, justifying your decision with reassurances like, "It's just an insignificant tax. At least it is going to something I want," and "Sometimes you have to compromise your values to get what you want." You then label yourself as a “reasonable fiscal conservative”, implying people like me are unreasonable. How convenient. Well, I am perfectly happy being unreasonable in your book (especially in neuhicky's book – an absolute confirmation I am correct ).

As I said earlier, I don't live in a vacuum. In fact, I'm living off my last paycheck, while trying to find a new job, looking for a new place to live, and studying for the Dental Admission Test (it's about as hard as the MCAT). Oh, and I will also start taking a general psychology class (insert joke about my mental state here) in late August. This is not a sob story; I'll be fine. The point: I'm certainly in touch with the realities of life thank you very much. I am not off in Never Never Land.

I must also disagree with the notion my beliefs are impossible. All it takes is one vote to change things. That is what America is about. “That’s just the way it is, some things will never change.” Don’t you believe it.

I realize my ramblings on this issue tick many of the forumers off. Too bad. I won’t remain silent in the name of getting along or winning a popularity contest. Instead, I choose to put my ideas out there, because this arena thing is not insignificant. It’s about adding to the existing mountain of socialism (is it not amazing how well incrementalism works?), which infects this city, this county, this state, and this country, or standing up and saying "No!" As expected even the so-called conservatives (RINO’s) in this forum are high off the dreams of shiny new arenas, pretty towers, walkable streets, urbanism, and city pride (What goes before a fall?). Well, someone has to offer an opposing view. It might as well be me.





“Gosh, snfenoc! You are such an extremist”
Yeah, I am. That’s OK, because extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.

Compromise is one of the greatest virtues of humanity!...and Socialists aren't bad and don't need to be defeated(unless you're looking to go to war with me!). Isn't it better to make everyone happy than to make one group happy and have an extremist country like Iran or North Korea? I hardly want that. This is a country of many different types of people and we CAN'T ALWAYS GET WHAT WE WANT!!! How many years has that song been playing on the radio and people STILL DON'T GET IT?

[Sactorleans]

Originally Posted by SacTownAndy

^ I know this is a totally minor point, but when you buy a car from a dealership, don't you pay sales tax based on the county you live in rather than where you're buying it? Or am I thinking of something else?

Yes, I believe you do. I think they even did this to me at Sears too. I was buying a whole set of kitchen appliances at a Sears out in Roseville, and they charged me the Sac County rate based on the delivery address.