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  #121  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2019, 8:01 PM
craigs craigs is offline
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What facts and logic are people using to back the claim Latinos are "conservative" enough to meaningfully tilt Los Angeles, overall, to the right of New York or Chicago?

One would expect to see "conservatives" vote for the unabashedly conservative Republican Party. Yet the data show majorities of Latino voters, according to Pew Research, voted instead for the more liberal Democratic candidates, 69-29, in the 2018 midterm elections. Indeed, Pew shows Latino support for the more liberal party's candidates held true even in swing states and red states: the majority of the Latino electorate voted for the Democratic candidates for Senate and governor in Florida, for Senate and governor in Texas, for Senate and governor in Arizona, for Senate and governor in Nevada.

But that's the national context. Some will point out that, while nominally more liberal than their Republican challengers, the Democrats winning over Latino majorities in states like Florida and Texas are more centrist than liberal, which may well be true. But what about Los Angeles specifically? The California Democratic Party isn't full of the compromised, scaredy-cat, Republican-Lite Dems you see in many other parts of America. Los Angeles Latinos are overwhelmingly voting for liberal Democrats, and this isn't new. It's not some recent experiment. This has been going on for 25 years.

So, given all that, how can we assert that Latinos in Los Angeles are conservative enough to tilt Los Angeles to the right of Chicago or New York?
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  #122  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2019, 9:29 PM
Handro Handro is offline
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
New York is socially egalitarian, and fiscally libertarian. I think this is broadly true of people who live here, regardless of political affiliation. For 20 of the past 25 years, the mayor's office has been occupied by either a Republican, or Republican turned independent. But a New York mayor of any political party is careful not to seem xenophobic, and also careful not to appear fiscally irresponsible.

I can't really speak on this relative to L.A. or Chicago. But New York isn't as one-sided liberal as Fox News would have you believe.
I remember reading the point once that since civic leaders to be the most pragmatic, as decisions they make much more quickly and drastically impact the daily lives of their constituents, that the concept of political party shouldn't really hold as much weight. For insnace, despite the (D) next to his name and some pro-immigrant, pro-environment leanings, anyone who wants to claim Rahm Emmanuel was a liberal democrat is either dumb or playing dumb.
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  #123  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2019, 11:29 PM
jtown,man jtown,man is offline
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I have always respected cities and states that have a leader of a different party than the majority of citizens. NYC with Rudy, California for a while until recently, and West Virginia with Joe Manchin as their senator. In our highly divisive times, it's nice to see that voters aren't zombies hitting R or D all the time.
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  #124  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2019, 7:52 PM
Yankeegreat94 Yankeegreat94 is offline
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Originally Posted by pj3000 View Post
There is a certain subset of Italian Americans in a lot of old, northern cities that seems to be rather oddly right wing-y and racist.

You could likely say this about Irish Americans (the racist part, at least) as well, but maybe the Italian American subset is just more outspoken about it?
Yes, Throggs Neck, etc.

Italian-American GOP stronghold NYC areas

Throggs Neck, Bensonhurst, Douglaston, Staten Island are all Giuliani-Trump Blue Lives Matter country.

All solidly white middle class right wing, they vote for moderate Democrats.

After 9/11/2001, they became more jingoistic.
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  #125  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2019, 7:58 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
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Originally Posted by jtown,man View Post
I have always respected cities and states that have a leader of a different party than the majority of citizens. NYC with Rudy, California for a while until recently, and West Virginia with Joe Manchin as their senator. In our highly divisive times, it's nice to see that voters aren't zombies hitting R or D all the time.
Rudy, when he was mayor, was quite liberal. People forget. He was originally Dem, and switched parties because he could never survive the Dem primary. Bloomberg too, though his mayoralty was quite different. Their mayoral-era party identifications were more a sign of NYC's closed primaries.

Rudy shacked up with his gay bestie following his divorce, he dressed in drag as a joke, endorsed ultraliberal Mario Cuomo, supported strengthening rent control, raised taxes, pushed for universal healthcare, was a huge supporter of sanctuary cities, gun control, abortion on demand, etc. Policywise, he could accurately be described as pretty far left in 2019 terms (which is why his current incarnation is so bizarre).

I remember Rudy trashing President Clinton for not being pro-choice enough. Nowadays, Giuliani is a Trump sycophant and the Clintons are considered "far Left" by 30-40% of the country. Truly bizarre.
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  #126  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2019, 8:07 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
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Here's a quote on illegal immigration. Is it Giuliani or AOC?

"Some of the hardest-working and most productive people in this city are undocumented aliens. If you come here and you work hard and you happen to be in an undocumented status, you're one of the people who we want in this city. You're somebody that we want to protect, and we want you to get out from under what is often a life of being like a fugitive, which is really unfair."
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  #127  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2019, 9:24 PM
Gantz Gantz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
New York is socially egalitarian, and fiscally libertarian. I think this is broadly true of people who live here, regardless of political affiliation. For 20 of the past 25 years, the mayor's office has been occupied by either a Republican, or Republican turned independent. But a New York mayor of any political party is careful not to seem xenophobic, and also careful not to appear fiscally irresponsible.

I can't really speak on this relative to L.A. or Chicago. But New York isn't as one-sided liberal as Fox News would have you believe.
That may have been true until De Blasio's administration though. I don't think New York is fiscally libertarian anymore, as De Blasio greatly expanded the size of the city budget and regulations in all sorts of areas. The pendulum has swung a lot to the left in our city. I think it still remains socially egalitarian just like you said. As far as social policies, NYC hasn't changed much at all.
The flip side is, this course of action is not really sustainable economically and the market forces will force the pendulum to swing back to more fiscally responsible decisions, regardless of who is going to be the future mayor.
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  #128  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2019, 9:43 PM
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Originally Posted by pj3000 View Post
There is a certain subset of Italian Americans in a lot of old, northern cities that seems to be rather oddly right wing-y and racist.

You could likely say this about Irish Americans (the racist part, at least) as well, but maybe the Italian American subset is just more outspoken about it?
A lot of Italians Americans are "Italian" in name only at this point. They just have the surname but I found they are no more or less right-wing/ racist than any other assimilated group. The areas where they dominate and lean right may reflect the blue collar/ working class nature rather than ethnicity.
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  #129  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2019, 12:18 AM
Yankeegreat94 Yankeegreat94 is offline
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Rudy, when he was mayor, was quite liberal. People forget. He was originally Dem, and switched parties because he could never survive the Dem primary. Bloomberg too, though his mayoralty was quite different. Their mayoral-era party identifications were more a sign of NYC's closed primaries.

Rudy shacked up with his gay bestie following his divorce, he dressed in drag as a joke, endorsed ultraliberal Mario Cuomo, supported strengthening rent control, raised taxes, pushed for universal healthcare, was a huge supporter of sanctuary cities, gun control, abortion on demand, etc. Policywise, he could accurately be described as pretty far left in 2019 terms (which is why his current incarnation is so bizarre).

I remember Rudy trashing President Clinton for not being pro-choice enough. Nowadays, Giuliani is a Trump sycophant and the Clintons are considered "far Left" by 30-40% of the country. Truly bizarre.
Yes, there was a lot of moderate Democrats in New York City like Peter Vallone and Andrew Stein. They supported Giuliani; they did not like the Dinkins mayoralty.
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  #130  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2019, 12:35 AM
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Originally Posted by JManc View Post
A lot of Italians Americans are "Italian" in name only at this point. They just have the surname but I found they are no more or less right-wing/ racist than any other assimilated group. The areas where they dominate and lean right may reflect the blue collar/ working class nature rather than ethnicity.
I agree. They're American. They get the label because it's cool - Hollywood! But like you said, they're Italian in name only.

You can't label, as some would conveniently like to do so on this site, as racist, right wing, left wing, blah blah blah.

Red Flags Go Up, when you hear such generalizations being thrown around -- why do they have to do that to make a point?
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  #131  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2019, 1:17 AM
Yankeegreat94 Yankeegreat94 is offline
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Here's a quote on illegal immigration. Is it Giuliani or AOC?

"Some of the hardest-working and most productive people in this city are undocumented aliens. If you come here and you work hard and you happen to be in an undocumented status, you're one of the people who we want in this city. You're somebody that we want to protect, and we want you to get out from under what is often a life of being like a fugitive, which is really unfair."
Giuliani moved rightward to gain relevancy in the national Republican brand of Bush, DeLay and Limbaugh.

He ran a horrible 2008 campaign, focusing on appealing to NY transplants in Florida to win the nomination instead of campaigning in Iowa, S.C. and NH.

If Giuliani was the 2008 Republican nominee, he would have have ran a tough campaign against Obama; he would not be the first black man he ran against for an office; David Dinkins and Rudy Giuliani had a frosty relationship and ran against each other in 1989 and 1993, and almost again in 1997.

New York City in the 80s and 90s were racially divided; the NYPD did unfairly abuse black people (Louima, Dorismond) under Giuliani's watch; Obama would have brought these things up anyway.

However, some of the people who liked some of the Giuliani's law and order message were outerborough white ethnics like the Italian-Irish in Bensonhurst, Howard Beach, Staten Island, Throggs Neck, Douglaston, etc.

Some of them live in the NJ suburbs (Verona, etc.), some of them live in LI (Seaford, etc.) They like Rep. Pete King and other law and order Republicans; some of them like moderate Democrats like Bill and Hillary Clinton (they voted for her Senate races in 2000 and 2006, and some probably liked her in 2008, but when she joined Obama's cabinet in 2009 and ran for president in 2016, they soured).

A lot of them voted for Trump.

They like Christie, Trump, Giuliani, the NYPD, NYFD, PBA, etc.

They listen to talk radio icons like Mike Francesa, Boomer Esiason, Michael Kay, Stephen A. Smith (sports), Rush Limbaugh.

This part of the Northeast is heavily Democratic, but they are conservative pockets of the city of NYC and the suburbs.

A lot of them don't like Colin Kaepernick.
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  #132  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2019, 1:32 AM
jtown,man jtown,man is offline
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Originally Posted by Sun Belt View Post
I agree. They're American. They get the label because it's cool - Hollywood! But like you said, they're Italian in name only.

You can't label, as some would conveniently like to do so on this site, as racist, right wing, left wing, blah blah blah.

Red Flags Go Up, when you hear such generalizations being thrown around -- why do they have to do that to make a point?
Because of identity politics.

Saying "Italian Americans vote overwhelmingly Republican" might be fact-based(I don't know if this is true).
Saying "Italian Americans are overwhelmingly racist" is just someone saying something. It is based on them supporting Republicans, Trump, or someone knowing a racist Italian.

I know really two racists. One is my uncle, white. The other is a black dude I worked with. He hated white people and was extremely uncomfortable to be around(he ended up getting kicked out of the Navy for his attitude against his coworkers).

I am not gonna label all white people racist because of my uncle or all black people racist became of some anti-social dude I worked with at one point.

Grouping people and labeling them something negative that can't be quantified in any real way is really dangerous...
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  #133  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2019, 1:32 AM
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^Boomer Esiason, Rush Limbaugh, Colin Kaepernick and Mr. "HowEvah" Stephen A. Smith all in the same post with Obama, both Clintons, Trump, Christie, Giuliani, Bush, DeLay and others.

Wow.
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  #134  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2019, 3:27 AM
Yankeegreat94 Yankeegreat94 is offline
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I'm just saying that a lot of suburban Italians and Irish in the Northeast love Esiason and Francesa, Limbaugh and other rightwing radio hosts.

It's part of the culture.
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  #135  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2019, 1:49 PM
IrishIllini IrishIllini is offline
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https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com...ocrats-cities/

NYC looks redder than either Chicago or LA.
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  #136  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2019, 1:54 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
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Originally Posted by IrishIllini View Post
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com...ocrats-cities/

NYC looks redder than either Chicago or LA.
That map shows 2016 Presidential results, not whether a geography is Dem or Rep. And maps don't show anything about relative support, obviously, because they don't reflect population.

As I'm sure you're well aware, Dotard's base isn't traditional Republicans, and NYC is the only one of the three with sizable non-Republican ethnic areas aligned to Dotard (Ultraorthodox, Russian and Italian). There are huge swaths of Brooklyn that went Dotard, doesn't mean these are traditional Republican-friendly areas, just like there are huge swaths of suburbia that went Clinton, doesn't mean these are traditional Dem-friendly areas.
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  #137  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2019, 2:00 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
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Originally Posted by Yankeegreat94 View Post
I'm just saying that a lot of suburban Italians and Irish in the Northeast love Esiason and Francesa, Limbaugh and other rightwing radio hosts.

It's part of the culture.
This is true, but this population doesn't live in NYC proper, for the most part. Typical NE Corridor Italians moved to suburbia over the last 60 years. Very few fourth-fifth generation Italians are in, say, Brooklyn. They're in Central Jersey, South Shore of LI, NE PA, or even NC or FL.

Brooklyn still has a large Italian population, but it's from more recent immigrant waves, in the 1960's-1970's, and still retains culture and language. The Italians in Bensonhurst, Dyker Heights and the like have only been in the U.S. for a couple of generations.
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  #138  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2019, 3:02 PM
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I can speak for Chicago and LA, and say without a doubt LA is more conservative. The liberalism here is very contrived.
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  #139  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2019, 3:13 PM
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I can speak for Chicago and LA, and say without a doubt LA is more conservative. The liberalism here is very contrived.
How so?

I've never lived in Chicago or NYC, but I've visited both, so I can't really "judge" the other two, but I don't get that the "liberalism" in LA is contrived. Historically, LA was not kind to unions; LA post Mexican-cession really grew because of American capitalist ventures, whether it was oil, film making, or real estate (mostly real estate).

But being a resident of the LA area basically my whole life, I don't get that the liberalism is contrived. I feel like in the LA area, people do anything they want, and aren't so quick to assimilate (or don't even assimilate at all) into mainstream US culture, and no one seems to mind. That's a liberalism in itself. You don't see billboards like this in many other American cities: https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0527...2!8i6656?hl=en

I don't even recall seeing ads in Korean in NYC's Koreatown but maybe I wasn't paying attention. And it seemed everyone spoke English there. But maybe it was because I was in (touristy) Manhattan. At the restaurant we go to in LA's Koreatown, often they'll have to find a server that speaks English to take our order.
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  #140  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2019, 3:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Brooklyn still has a large Italian population, but it's from more recent immigrant waves, in the 1960's-1970's, and still retains culture and language. The Italians in Bensonhurst, Dyker Heights and the like have only been in the U.S. for a couple of generations.
And they like Trump too, no? Because Trump's "America First" anti-immigration rhetoric never meant white Europeans.
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