New poll shows Conservative could achieve a majority in next election.

[madmigs]

Originally Posted by whatnext

I was watching the Globe & Mail "leading thinkers" clip of Paul Martin on aboriginal relations,http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle1927332/
and it just drove home to me what a colossal mistake Canadians made in defeating Martin's Liberals in favour of Harper. Consider that Martin did the following:

-Took Canada's fiscal situation from basket case to best case.
-Invested in infrastructure (which should gain points with SSpers). The $300 million committed by him got the Canada Line rolling, and this was before we were awarded the Oympics.
-Set the stage for prudent reductions in the income tax - as opposed to Harper's ill-considered GST cut.
-Set up the Kelowna Accord which would improve the living conditions of Canada's First Nations.
-Oversaw structural reform of the failing Canada Pension Plan.
-Stopped the Feds pointless and expensive fight against same-sex marriage.

History will indeed judge us poorly in replacing Martin with Harper.

Not to disagree with you there whatnext, but there were also a few pitfalls that essentially did them in. Primarily it was the Quebec ad-scam that did them in and a number of other things that happened under Chretien's watch. Most of the people I know, vote parties out, not vote parties in, excepting those that vote for their party no matter what.

[whalley13]

Originally Posted by whatnext
I was watching the Globe & Mail "leading thinkers" clip of Paul Martin on aboriginal relations,http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle1927332/
and it just drove home to me what a colossal mistake Canadians made in defeating Martin's Liberals in favour of Harper. Consider that Martin did the following:

-Took Canada's fiscal situation from basket case to best case.
-Invested in infrastructure (which should gain points with SSpers). The $300 million committed by him got the Canada Line rolling, and this was before we were awarded the Oympics.
-Set the stage for prudent reductions in the income tax - as opposed to Harper's ill-considered GST cut.
-Set up the Kelowna Accord which would improve the living conditions of Canada's First Nations.
-Oversaw structural reform of the failing Canada Pension Plan.
-Stopped the Feds pointless and expensive fight against same-sex marriage.

History will indeed judge us poorly in replacing Martin with Harper.

What crap.
Harper has done a good job with the economy, but alot of its out of the hands of gov't in that global trends, like the u.s. recession, help or hurt canada.
=harper gov't has put lots of stimulus money into infrastructure, new surrey library for example
=have u ever been on a reserve???? they are third world now and they were third world back then. no gov't has held reserves accountable.
-my vote is not determined by same sex marriages, a non issue to most canadians

Martin got voted out coz the liberals are full of power hungry hacks and they held a grudge from the hatchet job martin did on cretien

[whalley13]

in my opinion, canada has a low crime rate because we are an inclusive society...everyone has a chance to make a buck

the u.s., is a society of the very rich and very poor....the rich feel comfortable locking up the poor, hence big criminals populations in jail.

Canada vs. us is comparing apples to oranges.....3 strikes is way diff from canada where you can be convicted of 50 offences and still be out on the street

[whalley13]

Pretty ignorant of people on this forum to hack politicians who have given long careers of public service.....it is ok to say one disagrees with the politics of gordon campbell stockwell day etc...but acknowledge they have performed a thankless job for long stretches and have served their constituents well.

I think these guys are retiring as an election is coming and their time is done. The conservatives prolly want to bring some fresh faces and the three were prolly looking to retire anyways. Not a big deal.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by whalley13

Harper has done a good job with the economy, but alot of its out of the hands of gov't in that global trends, like the u.s. recession, help or hurt canada.
=harper gov't has put lots of stimulus money into infrastructure, new surrey library for example
=have u ever been on a reserve???? they are third world now and they were third world back then. no gov't has held reserves accountable.
-my vote is not determined by same sex marriages, a non issue to most canadians

Martin got voted out coz the liberals are full of power hungry hacks and they held a grudge from the hatchet job martin did on cretien

Harper has rung up the largest deficits in Canadian history, not good economic management in my books. Essentially he's undone all of the hard work done in the previous 15 years. He's been dining out on Martin's efforts for his whole term. My vote isn't determined by same sex marriages either, but it is just another example of how Martin was in every way superior to Harper, not bleeding off millions to fight something which was inevitable.

And before you go off about the economic crisis, remember it was the Liberals that out in place whatever regulations that kept Canada's banking system on sounder footing that the rest of the G8. And teh sound balance sheet which allowed the Tories to blow through billions under the "Economic Action Plan ( which they're now spending $26 million of our money on to remind us of, even though its over)

If Stephen Harper doesn't count as a power hungry hack, nobody does. By all accounts from Ottawa, he is a mean spirited, vindictive little man, who had never really had a real job outside government and lobbying.

[SpikePhanta]

^^^
I agree that Chretien and Martin left a great Canada for the cons, i give a + to the liberals and some bonus points to the conservatives for keeping it well in place.

[madmigs]

Originally Posted by whalley13

in my opinion, canada has a low crime rate because we are an inclusive society...everyone has a chance to make a buck

the u.s., is a society of the very rich and very poor....the rich feel comfortable locking up the poor, hence big criminals populations in jail.

Canada vs. us is comparing apples to oranges.....3 strikes is way diff from canada where you can be convicted of 50 offences and still be out on the street

Canada is a society of very rich and poor, the rich/poor divide, like the US, is now above what it was before the great depression. And yet we still keep cutting taxes for the wealthiest multinationals and wealthiest individuals, not to mention we are still subsidizing oil/nat gas production, where the companies already make billions of profit on the back of regular folk. The very rich here in Canada are really not all that different from the US, sure some are altruistic and use that money for good causes and then you have others that use that wealth for power and political gain.

As for the 50 offenses thing, well if we just keep on throwing them in the slammer for a few months or whatever and dumping them right back where they started from with no support to follow a different route, they will do the same things over and over again. If we don't help them find/show a different way, how are they to know the way? To them, what they are doing is what they think is the best way to support themselves, they don't care if its criminal or not. This is a huge warning sign that we, as a society, have failed with respects to rehabilitation and that we need to put more effort into it.

And as for the Kelowna accord, Harper unilaterally cancelled it.

Originally Posted by whalley13

but acknowledge they have performed a thankless job for long stretches and have served their constituents well.

Thankless job? I guess the over $150,000+ thanks aren't good enough? Oh but wait there is more, they get a pretty hefty pension after just six years of service.

[whalley13]

Originally Posted by whalley13 View Post
Whalley 13:in my opinion, canada has a low crime rate because we are an inclusive society...everyone has a chance to make a buck

Whallley 13: the u.s., is a society of the very rich and very poor....the rich feel comfortable locking up the poor, hence big criminals populations in jail.

Whalley 13: Canada vs. us is comparing apples to oranges.....3 strikes is way diff from canada where you can be convicted of 50 offences and still be out on the street

Canada is a society of very rich and poor, the rich/poor divide, like the US, is now above what it was before the great depression. And yet we still keep cutting taxes for the wealthiest multinationals and wealthiest individuals, not to mention we are still subsidizing oil/nat gas production, where the companies already make billions of profit on the back of regular folk. The very rich here in Canada are really not all that different from the US, sure some are altruistic and use that money for good causes and then you have others that use that wealth for power and political gain.

Whalley 13: Do you know all rich people and all poor people in Canada that you can make judgements like this???if so good for you , you are great. I have no problem with companies make a buck. I am a regular joe my rrsps, pension is invested in those companies, so if they do well i do well. If people are employed by companies, which they do when they make money, these people spend in my community. Oil is supply and demand, only a few years ago where it was down to $30. Demand by people, those regular people u refer to, has pushed it up to $100...its called a free market. Rich people try to gain power and so do poor people, look at the leaches in the downtown eastside like Wendy Peterson.

Whalley 13: And remember IGNATIEFF, the American, wanted Harper to have even bigger deficits!!! Now it is soooo easy to criticise the Conservatives

As for the 50 offenses thing, well if we just keep on throwing them in the slammer for a few months or whatever and dumping them right back where they started from with no support to follow a different route, they will do the same things over and over again. If we don't help them find/show a different way, how are they to know the way? To them, what they are doing is what they think is the best way to support themselves, they don't care if its criminal or not. This is a huge warning sign that we, as a society, have failed with respects to rehabilitation and that we need to put more effort into it.

Whalley 13: Some of these people can be helped, and prisons provide opportunities for those who are motivated. I have been there, and I have seen people turn their lives around. The problem is most people in jail are there coz they are lazy, or stupid. Its true. Criminals have to want to turn their lives around, but most don't, from my experience, so they take the easy way out. Hence they break into your house.

Whalley 13: We do support criminals, its called welfare. If you got such a big heart, i know lots of crooks that you can hire to work for your business....or maybe you can give them a room in your house so they can watch your kids and get babysitting experience.

And as for the Kelowna accord, Harper unilaterally cancelled it.

Whalley 13: I don't know enought about the kelowna accord to comment, but i assume it was the liberals shovelling money to unnacountable band chiefs. At least Harper and Co. are trying to turn things around. Or are you ok with band chiefs make 900K while their people rot???

Quote:
Originally Posted by whalley13 View Post
but acknowledge they have performed a thankless job for long stretches and have served their constituents well.

Thankless job? I guess the over $150,000+ thanks aren't good enough? Oh but wait there is more, they get a pretty hefty pension after just six years of service.

Whalley 13: Most politicians come from successful backgrounds, hence we elect them!!! I don't think harper entered politics to get rich.

Save the liberal drivel for another losing electionPPPP

[SpikePhanta]

I'm sorry but can you structure your post properly?

Makes it much easier to understand thanks!

[whalley13]

Originally Posted by whalley13

Originally Posted by whalley13 View Post
Whalley 13:in my opinion, canada has a low crime rate because we are an inclusive society...everyone has a chance to make a buck

Whallley 13: the u.s., is a society of the very rich and very poor....the rich feel comfortable locking up the poor, hence big criminals populations in jail.

Whalley 13: Canada vs. us is comparing apples to oranges.....3 strikes is way diff from canada where you can be convicted of 50 offences and still be out on the street

Canada is a society of very rich and poor, the rich/poor divide, like the US, is now above what it was before the great depression. And yet we still keep cutting taxes for the wealthiest multinationals and wealthiest individuals, not to mention we are still subsidizing oil/nat gas production, where the companies already make billions of profit on the back of regular folk. The very rich here in Canada are really not all that different from the US, sure some are altruistic and use that money for good causes and then you have others that use that wealth for power and political gain.

Whalley 13: Do you know all rich people and all poor people in Canada that you can make judgements like this???if so good for you , you are great. I have no problem with companies make a buck. I am a regular joe my rrsps, pension is invested in those companies, so if they do well i do well. If people are employed by companies, which they do when they make money, these people spend in my community. Oil is supply and demand, only a few years ago where it was down to $30. Demand by people, those regular people u refer to, has pushed it up to $100...its called a free market. Rich people try to gain power and so do poor people, look at the leaches in the downtown eastside like Wendy Peterson.

Whalley 13: And remember IGNATIEFF, the American, wanted Harper to have even bigger deficits!!! Now it is soooo easy to criticise the Conservatives

As for the 50 offenses thing, well if we just keep on throwing them in the slammer for a few months or whatever and dumping them right back where they started from with no support to follow a different route, they will do the same things over and over again. If we don't help them find/show a different way, how are they to know the way? To them, what they are doing is what they think is the best way to support themselves, they don't care if its criminal or not. This is a huge warning sign that we, as a society, have failed with respects to rehabilitation and that we need to put more effort into it.

Whalley 13: Some of these people can be helped, and prisons provide opportunities for those who are motivated. I have been there, and I have seen people turn their lives around. The problem is most people in jail are there coz they are lazy, or stupid. Its true. Criminals have to want to turn their lives around, but most don't, from my experience, so they take the easy way out. Hence they break into your house.

Whalley 13: We do support criminals, its called welfare. If you got such a big heart, i know lots of crooks that you can hire to work for your business....or maybe you can give them a room in your house so they can watch your kids and get babysitting experience.

And as for the Kelowna accord, Harper unilaterally cancelled it.

Whalley 13: I don't know enought about the kelowna accord to comment, but i assume it was the liberals shovelling money to unnacountable band chiefs. At least Harper and Co. are trying to turn things around. Or are you ok with band chiefs make 900K while their people rot???

Quote:
Originally Posted by whalley13 View Post
but acknowledge they have performed a thankless job for long stretches and have served their constituents well.

Thankless job? I guess the over $150,000+ thanks aren't good enough? Oh but wait there is more, they get a pretty hefty pension after just six years of service.

Whalley 13: Most politicians come from successful backgrounds, hence we elect them!!! I don't think harper entered politics to get rich.

Save the liberal drivel for another losing electionPPPP

Do you know all rich people and all poor people in Canada that you can make judgements like this???if so good for you , you are great. I have no problem with companies make a buck. I am a regular joe my rrsps, pension is invested in those companies, so if they do well i do well. If people are employed by companies, which they do when they make money, these people spend in my community. Oil is supply and demand, only a few years ago where it was down to $30. Demand by people, those regular people u refer to, has pushed it up to $100...its called a free market. Rich people try to gain power and so do poor people, look at the leaches in the downtown eastside like Wendy Peterson.

And remember IGNATIEFF, the American, wanted Harper to have even bigger deficits!!! Now it is soooo easy to criticise the Conservatives

Some of these people can be helped, and prisons provide opportunities for those who are motivated. I have been there, and I have seen people turn their lives around. The problem is most people in jail are there coz they are lazy, or stupid. Its true. Criminals have to want to turn their lives around, but most don't, from my experience, so they take the easy way out. Hence they break into your house.

We do support criminals, its called welfare. If you got such a big heart, i know lots of crooks that you can hire to work for your business....or maybe you can give them a room in your house so they can watch your kids and get babysitting experience.

I don't know enough about the kelowna accord to comment, but i assume it was the liberals shoveling money to unacountable band chiefs. At least Harper and Co. are trying to turn things around. Or are you ok with band chiefs make 900K while their people rot???

Most politicians come from successful backgrounds, hence we elect them!!! I don't think harper entered politics to get rich.

Save the liberal drivel for another losing electionPPPP

[madmigs]

Originally Posted by whalley13

Originally Posted by whalley13 View Post
Whalley 13:in my opinion, canada has a low crime rate because we are an inclusive society...everyone has a chance to make a buck

Whallley 13: the u.s., is a society of the very rich and very poor....the rich feel comfortable locking up the poor, hence big criminals populations in jail.

Whalley 13: Canada vs. us is comparing apples to oranges.....3 strikes is way diff from canada where you can be convicted of 50 offences and still be out on the street

Canada is a society of very rich and poor, the rich/poor divide, like the US, is now above what it was before the great depression. And yet we still keep cutting taxes for the wealthiest multinationals and wealthiest individuals, not to mention we are still subsidizing oil/nat gas production, where the companies already make billions of profit on the back of regular folk. The very rich here in Canada are really not all that different from the US, sure some are altruistic and use that money for good causes and then you have others that use that wealth for power and political gain.

Whalley 13: Do you know all rich people and all poor people in Canada that you can make judgements like this???if so good for you , you are great. I have no problem with companies make a buck. I am a regular joe my rrsps, pension is invested in those companies, so if they do well i do well. If people are employed by companies, which they do when they make money, these people spend in my community. Oil is supply and demand, only a few years ago where it was down to $30. Demand by people, those regular people u refer to, has pushed it up to $100...its called a free market. Rich people try to gain power and so do poor people, look at the leaches in the downtown eastside like Wendy Peterson.

It was a generalization based on what is happening in the US, a very similar society in a lot of respects and from what i've read up on about Canada. And don't get me wrong, I do think small local businesses deserve tax cuts, people that employ local people, and spend most of their profits locally, instead of the huge multinationals that ship their funds, or their call centres or their manufacturing, etc overseas just to make an extra buck for them. Trickle down economics don't work, if they did, the rich/poor gap wouldn't keep on increasing and increasing so fast when the rich get tax breaks.

Oil is anything but a free market and its been almost 10 years since 9/11 when oil was last at $30/barrel. OPEC does what would essentially be illegal in most western nations under anti-trust or price collusion. Yes, they regularly meet to decide on what price level they would like to see and purposefully adjust the supply accordingly. That is not a free market. And since Libya fell into civil war, the price increase is not due to a sudden increase in demand or huge decrease in supply(the lost supply from Libya was made up by OPEC), its from speculators making tons of money and fear.

These companies make billions, why are we giving them subsidies from our hard earned money? That's not a free market, that's a gov't influenced market. We both don't like that some First Nation chiefs take our hard-earned money that we pay as taxes to earn huge sums of money while their people rot, how is this any different? If fellow Canadians are in trouble and need help because their oil company shares are making enough for them, I have no issue with my tax dollars going towards that, but I
don't want my tax dollars to support companies that are making billions, and upper management making tens of millions/year.

Originally Posted by whalley13

As for the 50 offenses thing, well if we just keep on throwing them in the slammer for a few months or whatever and dumping them right back where they started from with no support to follow a different route, they will do the same things over and over again. If we don't help them find/show a different way, how are they to know the way? To them, what they are doing is what they think is the best way to support themselves, they don't care if its criminal or not. This is a huge warning sign that we, as a society, have failed with respects to rehabilitation and that we need to put more effort into it.

Whalley 13: Some of these people can be helped, and prisons provide opportunities for those who are motivated. I have been there, and I have seen people turn their lives around. The problem is most people in jail are there coz they are lazy, or stupid. Its true. Criminals have to want to turn their lives around, but most don't, from my experience, so they take the easy way out. Hence they break into your house.

Whalley 13: We do support criminals, its called welfare. If you got such a big heart, i know lots of crooks that you can hire to work for your business....or maybe you can give them a room in your house so they can watch your kids and get babysitting experience.

To follow along with what you said to me - so you know all of the criminals in jail to make those assumptions? You complain about me making assumptions, only to do it yourself.

I have relatives and friends that work with a lot of people coming out of the prison system, supporting them, helping them get education, housing, jobs, and showing them that they can be sucessful at things other than what they were doing. Helping those that you so casually dismiss as not wanting to help themselves and that are too lazy or stupid. Yes our prison system does help some but it leaves many without the help they need to even see that there is a different path to follow and to want to change to follow that different path. Like I said before, they turned to crime as that was what they had figured out was the best way for them to get by, how can we expect them to want to follow a different route, when they don't even know there is a different route they can take and that it is actually attainable. Sure to us they appear stupid, but hey we regular folk appear stupid to geniuses.

It takes time to change. It's not something that you can just flip a switch and suddenly criminals or even rehabilitated criminals are better. Its like an addiction, it gets easier over time to avoid falling back to your old ways. You don't tempt a robber by leaving them in a house full of valuable items and expect them to not take something, just like you don't tempt an alcoholic by leaving them alone with a bottle of vodka. Hence they need support, and I'm not talking about simply giving them money and say here you go.

Originally Posted by whalley13

And as for the Kelowna accord, Harper unilaterally cancelled it.

Whalley 13: I don't know enought about the kelowna accord to comment, but i assume it was the liberals shovelling money to unnacountable band chiefs. At least Harper and Co. are trying to turn things around. Or are you ok with band chiefs make 900K while their people rot???

The Kelowna accord was worked on for years between the First Nations, the federal gov't, and provincial gov'ts to improve conditions and accountability, the very things you are demanding. I am NOT ok with the band chiefs making that much while their people rot and agree that there needs to be more transparency/accountability for not only monies given to First Nations, but for all public monies. I want that and had high hopes for Harper's initial platform that he got elected on transparency/accountability, only to have him go the opposite way. At that point, he lost my support completely. Oh and BTW those things that Harper is trying now are pieces of the Kelowna accord.

But to frame your question differently, are you ok with the super-rich getting richer from tax breaks while so many are in poverty? What about all the mental facilities that were closed to cut taxes for the rich dumping those people onto the streets/families/etc only to end up using up expensive police/fire/ambulance/hospital time? What happens when because of the tax breaks that to balance the budget that they have to cut services that affect you or your family. Or even need to lay you off because they can't afford to pay for all the police officers or renege on your pension? Some states had to do that in the US to balance their budgets.

[Nutterbug]

Originally Posted by madmigs

Like I said before, they turned to crime as that was what they had figured out was the best way for them to get by, how can we expect them to want to follow a different route, when they don't even know there is a different route they can take and that it is actually attainable. Sure to us they appear stupid, but hey we regular folk appear stupid to geniuses.

They should know better and be aware of these "different routes" by the time they're in their 20's, 30's, 40's, 50's..., and I'm pretty sure they are reminded of them during their time in prison. If they are to be treated like adults, they better bloody well be willing to accept the responsibilities and consequences of one.

Originally Posted by madmigs

It takes time to change. It's not something that you can just flip a switch and suddenly criminals or even rehabilitated criminals are better. Its like an addiction, it gets easier over time to avoid falling back to your old ways. You don't tempt a robber by leaving them in a house full of valuable items and expect them to not take something, just like you don't tempt an alcoholic by leaving them alone with a bottle of vodka. Hence they need support, and I'm not talking about simply giving them money and say here you go.

If they're too sociopathic to resist these urges, maybe they should be put away for a bloody long time. Stealing out of need is one thing. Stealing out of greed or lack of conscience is something else.

[whalley13]

[QUOTE=madmigs;5201323]It was a generalization based on what is happening in the US, a very similar society in a lot of respects and from what i've read up on about Canada. And don't get me wrong, I do think small local businesses deserve tax cuts, people that employ local people, and spend most of their profits locally, instead of the huge multinationals that ship their funds, or their call centres or their manufacturing, etc overseas just to make an extra buck for them. Trickle down economics don't work, if they did, the rich/poor gap wouldn't keep on increasing and increasing so fast when the rich get tax breaks.

Oil is anything but a free market and its been almost 10 years since 9/11 when oil was last at $30/barrel. OPEC does what would essentially be illegal in most western nations under anti-trust or price collusion. Yes, they regularly meet to decide on what price level they would like to see and purposefully adjust the supply accordingly. That is not a free market. And since Libya fell into civil war, the price increase is not due to a sudden increase in demand or huge decrease in supply(the lost supply from Libya was made up by OPEC), its from speculators making tons of money and fear.

These companies make billions, why are we giving them subsidies from our hard earned money? That's not a free market, that's a gov't influenced market. We both don't like that some First Nation chiefs take our hard-earned money that we pay as taxes to earn huge sums of money while their people rot, how is this any different? If fellow Canadians are in trouble and need help because their oil company shares are making enough for them, I have no issue with my tax dollars going towards that, but I
don't want my tax dollars to support companies that are making billions, and upper management making tens of millions/year.


To follow along with what you said to me - so you know all of the criminals in jail to make those assumptions? You complain about me making assumptions, only to do it yourself.

I have relatives and friends that work with a lot of people coming out of the prison system, supporting them, helping them get education, housing, jobs, and showing them that they can be sucessful at things other than what they were doing. Helping those that you so casually dismiss as not wanting to help themselves and that are too lazy or stupid. Yes our prison system does help some but it leaves many without the help they need to even see that there is a different path to follow and to want to change to follow that different path. Like I said before, they turned to crime as that was what they had figured out was the best way for them to get by, how can we expect them to want to follow a different route, when they don't even know there is a different route they can take and that it is actually attainable. Sure to us they appear stupid, but hey we regular folk appear stupid to geniuses.

It takes time to change. It's not something that you can just flip a switch and suddenly criminals or even rehabilitated criminals are better. Its like an addiction, it gets easier over time to avoid falling back to your old ways. You don't tempt a robber by leaving them in a house full of valuable items and expect them to not take something, just like you don't tempt an alcoholic by leaving them alone with a bottle of vodka. Hence they need support, and I'm not talking about simply giving them money and say here you go.


The Kelowna accord was worked on for years between the First Nations, the federal gov't, and provincial gov'ts to improve conditions and accountability, the very things you are demanding. I am NOT ok with the band chiefs making that much while their people rot and agree that there needs to be more transparency/accountability for not only monies given to First Nations, but for all public monies. I want that and had high hopes for Harper's initial platform that he got elected on transparency/accountability, only to have him go the opposite way. At that point, he lost my support completely. Oh and BTW those things that Harper is trying now are pieces of the Kelowna accord.

But to frame your question differently, are you ok with the super-rich getting richer from tax breaks while so many are in poverty? What about all the mental facilities that were closed to cut taxes for the rich dumping those people onto the streets/families/etc only to end up using up expensive police/fire/ambulance/hospital time? What happens when because of the tax breaks that to balance the budget that they have to cut services that affect you or your family. Or even need to lay you off because they can't afford to pay for all the police officers or renege on your pension? Some states had to do that in the US to balance their budgets.[/QUOTE}



I am not sure if you live in Canada, but it is alot different than America. We don't have ghetto's like the U.S. does, we don't have abandoned cities like the U.S., we don't have the violence especially gun violence that the U.S. has. Why???coz , in my opinion, we have a kinder and more inclusive society. The only thing close we have is Natives, and in my opinion, is that is their own fault. If you go on a reserve, from the 5-10 that I have visited, half live like kings, thanks to the federal gov't, and the other half live like Guatamala. They get tons of money, opportunities but through greed do not distribute it properly. Do you get access to free education? No but natives do. Do you get access to not having paying taxes? No but natives do. Do you get a new house every 10 years, which are generally trashed and run into the ground? No but Natives do.

Big business is still a big employer. Ask anyone, would you rather work for a small business, say an independent mill, or would you rather work for Canfor? most people will say Canfor becoz Canfor pays better has better benefits and better pay. Union membership is stronger in big companies than it is in small businesses. Why is China growing its domestic market??? Because you need big businesses that pay better to have a good stable economy. Bill Gates is super rich, but my average joe cousin is very happy to work there as a programmer, coz Microsoft pays well. As long as he is more productive and innovative, than his China counterpart, who does not exist, he will have a job which is not a bad thing coz thats how innovation happens.

there is more to the world than OPEC....ie hello...Canada!! If gas gets too expensive, consumption goes down, and prices go down this is what happened in last couple of years. There is currently instability in the oil markets, hence price has gone up. This past week, Japan had a crisis, and prices have come down. C'est la vie. You as a consumer, always have the option to use less or find an alternative.

I have dealt with prolly thousands of criminals, in British Columbia. I am confident it is a large enough sample size, to make judgements on the rest of their ill ilk. Look at you, basing your opinions on what your relatives say, who are prolly leaches on the poor in the DTES like Wendy PETERSON and her peers. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA......like I say move these criminals who need an advantage into your home and give them that chance you think they need...ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS

Most criminals i know, are literally stupid. Sorry there is no way around this. Tell your friends and relatives to do a better job of giving these convicts new lifes, coz somehow despite your friends help they end up back in jail lol!!

"But to frame your question differently, are you ok with the super-rich getting richer from tax breaks while so many are in poverty?"

That was not my question, don't put words in my mouth, you manipulator of the truth. Society works best on incentives, if big companies make money and have an incentive to hire, they will hire. It was only a few years ago where the labour market was on fire and these big companies you hate couldn't hire kids in Alberta to work at timmy"s for $15/hr...it is called supply and demand. Poverty???? go to a third world country to see poverty, we have it pretty good in Canada.

"What about all the mental facilities that were closed to cut taxes for the rich dumping those people onto the streets/families/etc only to end up using up expensive police/fire/ambulance/hospital time? "

I would like to point out it was those lefty ndp'ers, close cousins to those fed liberals you pant and pine for, who closed riverview and kicked the poor onto the streets. The evil liberals have taken steps like, social housing, to address your concerns as it is a waste of resources to deal with crazies through the police/firedept.

"What happens when because of the tax breaks that to balance the budget that they have to cut services that affect you or your family."

They increase taxes to raise revenues, hence the hst. I don't think its as simple as you try to make it out to be. Sometimes gov't raise taxes, ie the carbon tax, bridge tolling for ex, sometimes they cut taxes. I am a middle class guy and my taxes have come down alot in the past 10 years, due to the good times in the economy we had.


"Or even need to lay you off because they can't afford to pay for all the police officers or renege on your pension? Some states had to do that in the US to balance their budgets."

Again supply and demand, gov't pensions are outrageous, often 30% bigger payouts than their private sector counterparts. Why should I pay for that as a taxpayer???? Something has to happen when there are 5 times as many federal pension collectors vs. federal workers paying in. Sorry, basic economics. And again you are comparing apples to oranges, if you try to compare the tax structure of america to Canada, and you are comparing two very different economies....just look at the U.s. dollar vs. Canada dollar, Cabrone.

I think some basic education in economics would benefit you. I think going out into the real world would benefit you as well.

[slide_rule]

*sighs*

the next time i hear some guy yell "supply and demand" and self-righteously defend the prevailing system as the embodiment of a fair and idealized capitalist system... well, sadly there are a lot of these people out there.

whalley, if you look closely at our tax system, you'll find that there are a lot of similarities between canada and the united states. sometimes our political leaders and their largest campaign contributors have similar academic/intellectual/financial motives. at other times, our heavy reliance on the american market forces us to adopt similar policies in order to compete for capital.

i'll give you one case in point: tax avoidance. in the past 30-odd years, canadian governments have increasingly relied on taxing labor and consumption, whereas before it was easier to tax corporations and wealth. this has shifted the tax burden onto the workers and the poor, and has allowed the corporations and the wealthy to gain and keep even more wealth and consequently made it easier for them to lobby the government via campaign contributions.

in the preceding paragraph, i could have described either canada or the united states.

it's easy to levy sales taxes. it's easy to tax workers. however the wealthy and corporations can avoid taxes by moving their capital elsewhere. thus you see canadian corporations having loss-making subsidiaries in low tax jurisdictions like barbados and the cayman islands. corporations that would ordinarily pay high canadian taxes instead pay little to nothing in these tax havens, AND this would effectively replace the canadian tax burden. tax treaties make this behavior perfectly legal.

all this has been documented by many economists/academics/etc. doesn't really matter though, as the media would rather omit or find some other scapegoat, and sadly many people don't think for themselves.

[whalley13]

I agree about money flight off shore, but the whole world does it....it is a very hard thing to stop, as soon as one loophole is closed another is found so its a losing battle....I don't have a problem with consumption taxes as rich people consume more than poor people, ie renters vs a guy who buys a million dollar house....sigh you have a gave simple minded criticisim without giving a workable....sigh ....sigh....sigh.....

[whalley13]

I think cuba is still a pinko commie country...you should move there and drive one of their collector cars....sigh....sigh....sigh

[madmigs]

whalley - what is up with all the personal attacks on me, my friends, and my relatives? If you are trying to get me mad so I start calling you names or insulting you, it won't work.

Pant and pine for the liberals? I don't know how many times I have to say this, I don't care for any of our current politicians, NONE! I voted for Harper, on his promise to bring accountability and transparency to gov't, but he failed, he went the other way, and thus I am now against him. He treats politics and government like a game, and even said as much publicly on record. Governing a populace is not a game.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by whalley13

I agree about money flight off shore, but the whole world does it....it is a very hard thing to stop, as soon as one loophole is closed another is found so its a losing battle....I don't have a problem with consumption taxes as rich people consume more than poor people, ie renters vs a guy who buys a million dollar house....sigh you have a gave simple minded criticisim without giving a workable....sigh ....sigh....sigh.....

Huh?

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by whalley13

I agree about money flight off shore, but the whole world does it....it is a very hard thing to stop, as soon as one loophole is closed another is found so its a losing battle....I don't have a problem with consumption taxes as rich people consume more than poor people, ie renters vs a guy who buys a million dollar house....sigh you have a gave simple minded criticisim without giving a workable....sigh ....sigh....sigh.....

Its not about stopping it, its about managing it, that is the roll of our government and our government has failed miserably.

Rich people consume more but I would guess less per dollar earned. In other words the guy that earns $50,000 might consume $50,000 in Canada while the person who earns $1,000,000 might only consume $400,000 in Canada while the rest is consumed elsewhere.

In the end its about having a balance between income taxes, consumption taxes, corporate taxes, etc. and what is considered "balanced" is always changing as behaviors change. It is not a losing battle as there is no battle to be won. sigh...

[whalley13]

You are basing your attack on my position on the crim justice system based on the opinions of your relatives, people who "help" criminals according to you. From my experience, people who claim to help criminals or the poor, usually are just making a quick buck off them hence my distaste for them.

You are right the off shore flight of capital should be fixed, and from my limited knowledge of the subject, Conservatives have taken small steps toward that....ie tax amnesty for money that has already left and participating in world wide move to remove bank secrecy ie swiss banks....

I have a read a little about this, and my understanding money laundering and flight has been going on since the turn of the century.....there are dozens of countrys that participate this. Cuba used to be a big destination for capital. Yes, this should be fixed but it is a world wide problem and its a bit much to expect the conservatives to fix it on their own without participation from other gov'ts...sigh...sigh...sigh