Western Expresso

[chrisallard5454]

Originally Posted by rypinion

Manitoba also appears to have a better corporate tax rate then Saskatchewan.

However, there are more variables. For instance, there's the payroll tax, right?

I included the payroll tax, it is in the form of Levy for Health and Education. But that only effects companies with a payroll of more than 1.25 million. So the Small businesses that Manitoba seems keen on protecting are not effected.

Small Bussiness tax 0 (best in the country) with 0 payroll tax until 1.25 million in payroll is reached. And once that 1.25 million is reached you are only taxed on the amount that you surpass it by. So if you have 1.3 million in payroll for the year, you are only taxed 4.3% on the 0.05 million on top of the 1.25. And that is only until 2.5 where the rate drops to 2.15% or half.

[Bdog]

Originally Posted by Stormer

Provincial taxes for a family of 4 making $75K in 2012 are
SK: $3,965

MB: $6,520

Source Sask Budget http://www.finance.gov.sk.ca/budget2...getSummary.pdf

Here's a another good tool for comparison (this one's for personal income taxes though).

[macblaze]

Originally Posted by chrisallard5454

Manitoba seems to rank first and second in projected GDP Growth over the next two years.

I am no expert on this matter and aslo have no fancy university degree but from what I have heard from rbc that sask should be on top. Here what I found .

http://www.rbc.com/economics/market/pdf/provfcst.pdf

[micheal]

Originally Posted by chrisallard5454

Manitoba seems to rank first and second in projected GDP Growth over the next two years.

not according to any info. provided by any financial institutions or the conference board.

[chrisallard5454]

Originally Posted by micheal

not according to any info. provided by any financial institutions or the conference board.

Oops your right. Lol, I was looking at the Saskatchewan numbers. Manitoba ranks 4, 3, and 5, which is still ok. My bad. I was reading a chart provided by stormer and I ended up registering the highlighted numbers as Manitoba numbers in my head. Probably because whenever I am usually doing research Manitoba is the principal subject in anything that I am looking at, so I automatically scanned the highlighted numbers.

[Bdog]

Originally Posted by h0twired

Hydro is HARDLY the cash cow that many make it out to be.

The entire generating capacity of Manitoba Hydro is around 4500 MWh. That is all hydro and steam generation throughout the province.

Lets assume a GENEROUS price of $80/MWh. This is higher than the average $50-75 range but it will prove my point without people arguing over market prices.

4500MWh * 24 hours * 365 days * $80 = $3.15 billion

So the raw power alone at an inflated market price can generate just over $3 billion in GROSS revenue. Now subtract the overhead costs like transmission, local delivery, staffing, dam construction/financing, interest/repayment on capital debts and other operating expenses and the remaining profit is actually pretty meager.

Compare that with the nearly $2 billion in oil royalties and $1.4 billion in potash royalties that Saskachewan brought in (2008-2009) from the companies exploiting the resources in the province. Considering the Saskatchewan provincial budget is about $10 billion it must be pretty nice to get over 1/3 of it from resource royalties.

Well said Hotwired. Resource rents and royalties dwarf what Manitoba could possibly generate from Hydro (and dwarf our equalization revenues as well).

The Wall government is the first to admit that the resource boom (record high prices for potash, oil and uranium) is largely to thank for the recent prosperity. Few Saskatchewanians can point to solid policy changes the Sask Party has made to promote this growth (although some forumers have pointed out certain small policy steps, which may play small roles in the growth).

Case in point - Saskatchewan's budget balooned from just over $8 Billion in 2007 to $11 Billion today (+ 40% in 5 years). Not sure how one can look at those numbers then throw stones at Manitoba's overspending (although I'm not justifying Manitoba's spending either - just noting that things aren't that different between the 2 provinces, besides the unprecedented royalties)

[micheal]

Originally Posted by chrisallard5454

Oops your right. Lol, I was looking at the Saskatchewan numbers. Manitoba ranks 4, 3, and 5, which is still ok. My bad. I was reading a chart provided by stormer and I ended up registering the highlighted numbers as Manitoba numbers in my head. Probably because whenever I am usually doing research Manitoba is the principal subject in anything that I am looking at, so I automatically scanned the highlighted numbers.

The manitoba economy grew at one of the slowest paces in canada in 2011.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/bus...149242075.html

[chrisallard5454]

Originally Posted by Stormer

Provincial taxes for a family of 4 making $75K in 2012 are
SK: $3,965

MB: $6,520

Source Sask Budget http://www.finance.gov.sk.ca/budget2...getSummary.pdf

Those numbers seem very skewed.

Saskatchewan income tax rates show that for income tax one would have to pay 11.00% for the first 42,065 of income followed by 13.00% for the following 78,120. (Canada Revenue Agency) So if the math is done:

0.11 x 42,065 = 4627.15 +
0.13 x 32,935 = 4281.55 =

8908.70 total income taxes for 75,000 annual income. Unless of course there are certain rebates that I haven't included.

[chrisallard5454]

Originally Posted by micheal

The manitoba economy grew at one of the slowest paces in canada in 2011.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/bus...149242075.html

That may be, but projections say that Manitoba is to grow at 4th, 3rd and 5th in subsequent years to come. These are from the Saskatchewan financial report provided by Stormer.

And for future reference I would suggest using a reputable source such as the Canada Revenue Agency the next time you show numbers such as these. Though WFP may be right about those numbers, I would be much more comfortable believing numbers if they are presented by a real source.

[drew]

^ michael, are you going to comment in the discrepancies in resource royalties between the two provinces, or just keep avoiding this topic altogether?

Let me ask again, with all things being generally equal between the two provinces, how can Manitoba generate the shortfall that exists in terms of royalties from potash and oil?

It isn't a matter of what party of the government in power, because they can't control what is in the ground, so then what is the answer?

[chrisallard5454]

I am not saying that the numbers presented are wrong, but doing basic maths shows huge discrepancies with the stats.

Are there really that many tax credits available?

[micheal]

Originally Posted by Bdog

Well said Hotwired. Resource rents and royalties dwarf what Manitoba could possibly generate from Hydro (and dwarf our equalization revenues as well).

The Wall government is the first to admit that the resource boom (record high prices for potash, oil and uranium) is largely to thank for the recent prosperity. Few Saskatchewanians can point to solid policy changes the Sask Party has made to promote this growth (although some forumers have pointed out certain small policy steps, which may play small roles in the growth).

Case in point - Saskatchewan's budget balooned from just over $8 Billion in 2007 to $11 Billion today (+ 40% in 5 years). Not sure how one can look at those numbers then throw stones at Manitoba's overspending (although I'm not justifying Manitoba's spending either - just noting that things aren't that different between the 2 provinces, besides the unprecedented royalties)

-the wall government delivered the biggest income tax reduction in saskatchewan history for a family of 4 they will not pay tax on the first $45 500 of income.
-reduced red tape and barriers for business and also reduced small business tax to 2%
-reintroduced mineral and exploration tax credit and made the ssktchewan research and developement tax credit fully refundable

-reduced corporate tax rate to 12%. and 10% for processing and manufacturing
-elimintation of payroll and health benefit taxes
-establishment of trade relationships around north america and world
-stability in resource rates and royalties
-90% reduction in surgical waite times thru privately delivered publically funded surgical centers
- reviewed all government services to find inefficiencies
-reduction of civil service by 16% thru attrition
-reduction of debt by 44% to 3 bil

these are just a few. there was over 140 promises kept and policy changes made by the wall government.

[rypinion]

Originally Posted by chrisallard5454

I am not saying that the numbers presented are wrong, but doing basic maths shows huge discrepancies with the stats.

Are there really that many tax credits available?

Are you including the basic personal amount?

For Manitoba in 2011 it was $8,384, for Saskatchewan in 2011 it was $14,535.

[micheal]

Originally Posted by drew

^ michael, are you going to comment in the discrepancies in resource royalties between the two provinces, or just keep avoiding this topic altogether?

Let me ask again, with all things being generally equal between the two provinces, how can Manitoba generate the shortfall that exists in terms of royalties from potash and oil?

It isn't a matter of what party of the government in power, because they can't control what is in the ground, so then what is the answer?

yes government can't control whats in the ground. your right. but they can control policy and foster an environment for economic growth and prosperity.
r u telling me that if alberta's natural governing party was the ndp for all these years they would be in the situation they r? obviously not. r u telling me if the governemtn of sask. in the early 80's and 90's didn't privatize the potash industry, oil and gas industry, uranium indusrty we would be in the situation were in today? obviously not. it is the private sector and capital markets that create the wealth and growth not governments. the bottom line is sask. has always had potash, oil and gas, uranium, gold diamonds etc. but it didnt have the proper economic policy and vision in place to create a short and long term growth plan plain and simple.

[chrisallard5454]

Originally Posted by rypinion

Are you including the basic personal amount?

For Manitoba in 2011 it was $8,384, for Saskatchewan in 2011 it was $14,535.

I should be yes. I am making my calculations based on income, and the related tax. For instance in Saskatchewan Tax rates are currently at:

11% for the first 42 065, and then 13% for the following 70 some odd thousand.

In Manitoba they're:

10.8% for the first 31 000
12.75% for the following 36 000
and 17.4 for the remaining income on top.

Manitoba really needs to lower its income taxes. Not because I think they are too high personally, but because when looking at these numbers they can be seen as extremely un competitive.

[micheal]

Originally Posted by chrisallard5454

I should be yes. I am making my calculations based on income, and the related tax. For instance in Saskatchewan Tax rates are currently at:

11% for the first 42 065, and then 13% for the following 70 some odd thousand.

In Manitoba they're:

10.8% for the first 31 000
12.75% for the following 36 000
and 17.4 for the remaining income on top.

Manitoba really needs to lower its income taxes. Not because I think they are too high personally, but because when looking at these numbers they can be seen as extremely un competitive.

Your really see the difference when its laid out ike this.

Manitoba vs. Saskatchewan

One-earner family of four making $40,000

Manitoba $1,978

Saskatchewan ($355)*

One-earner family of four making $60,000

Manitoba $4,712

Saskatchewan $2,504

Two-earner family of four making $60,000

Manitoba $3,042

Saskatchewan $725

Two-earner family of five making $75,000

Manitoba $4,165

Saskatchewan $1,470

Senior couple making $60,000

Manitoba $3,396

Saskatchewan $1,951

* Represents a tax credit

[chrisallard5454]

Originally Posted by micheal

Your really see the difference when its laid out ike this.

Manitoba vs. Saskatchewan

One-earner family of four making $40,000

Manitoba $1,978

Saskatchewan ($355)*

One-earner family of four making $60,000

Manitoba $4,712

Saskatchewan $2,504

Two-earner family of four making $60,000

Manitoba $3,042

Saskatchewan $725

Two-earner family of five making $75,000

Manitoba $4,165

Saskatchewan $1,470

Senior couple making $60,000

Manitoba $3,396

Saskatchewan $1,951

* Represents a tax credit

But where do those numbers come from? They don't match up with the percentages given at the Canada Revenue Agency.

In terms of Tax Credits, I know that Manitoba has numerous in there as well, so if you are going to include credits with one province it would only make sense to include the other.

[Stormer]

Originally Posted by chrisallard5454

But where do those numbers come from? They don't match up with the percentages given at the Canada Revenue Agency.

In terms of Tax Credits, I know that Manitoba has numerous in there as well, so if you are going to include credits with one province it would only make sense to include the other.

Saskatchewan has way higher basic personal exemptions.

[chrisallard5454]

Originally Posted by Stormer

Saskatchewan has way higher basic personal exemptions.

Not that I don't believe you, but could you provide the numbers to back that claim up?

[djforsberg]

http://lsminsurance.ca/calculators/canada/income-tax

A more detailed calculator: http://www.taxtips.ca/calculator/cdncalculator.htm