Gore Park

[highwater]

Next time try 'zany' or 'madcap'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEcSHOuGPt4

[raisethehammer]

interesting discussion, although I'm downtown everyday and there are a ton of suits. Anyone wishing to state otherwise is flat-out wrong.
Sure, more jobs downtown would be nice, but today's downtown is far busier than the one in that picture. JS will slowly come back, as are the surrounding main streets. I think our downtown is positioned better now than it's been for several decades.

[RePinion]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

interesting discussion, although I'm downtown everyday and there are a ton of suits. Anyone wishing to state otherwise is flat-out wrong.
Sure, more jobs downtown would be nice, but today's downtown is far busier than the one in that picture. JS will slowly come back, as are the surrounding main streets. I think our downtown is positioned better now than it's been for several decades.

Flat out wrong? How can you even say this about a purely anecdotal observation? I'm sorry, but that remark just sounds plain stupid. What is the standard by which you purport to measure the number of people in suits in the downtown?


In any case, I wonder if you have actually ever spent a signficant amount of time in a truly thriving CBD? I question whether you would still think there are a "ton of suits" in Hamilton's core if you had. Anyway, this is a rather moronic thing to be debating at length.

As for comparing the downtown of the picture to the downtown of present day reality, who even knows at one time of day that picture was taken? It really makes no sense to compare. My comparison was not intended to be a serious one, but I do think it is manifestly clear that the people in the picture are better dressed than your average downtown denizen today.

[DC83]

Originally Posted by RePinion

As for comparing the downtown of the picture to the downtown of present day reality, who even knows at one time of day that picture was taken? It really makes no sense to compare. My comparison was not intended to be a serious one, but I do think it is manifestly clear that the people in the picture are better dressed than your average downtown denizen today.

I don't even know how you can tell what they're wearing. And what if there are stains? or holes? Or frays? I think your observation that people in that late-70's photo are dressed more business-like than people at that intersection today is false.

All you've done so far is complain about it... be proactive! Come up with a solution! Write a letter to the Spec, maybe people will read it and say, "Wow, maybe I SHOULD wear a tie today".

I don't understand how you can dislike those who take a 'lax approach' to dressing in the CBD, but you're seeming to be doing the same re: any solutions "Well maybe someone else will write a letter. Hopefully someone else emails EcDev Hamilton. Somone Else... Someone Else..."

We didn't steer the City towards LRT by sitting on our hands and saying, "Gee I sure hope the City makes the right decision this time..."

[FairHamilton]

I think there has been a general trend to 'dress down' in general over the years.

IMO, there is a lower percentage of people who wear a suit to the office today, than 30 years ago. Not less people, but a lower percentage of people.

Heck, we had 'beach August' at the office, and September 2nd was my first time wearing socks in over a month........

That being said those who aren't at work also dress in a less professional manner, then those of 30 years ago as well.

Heck, at one time people used to dress up to get on an airplane, bus, or train......

[DC83]

^^ Good point, FairHamilton.

I remember one time my greay uncle giving me a lecture about how jeans were for the poor in his day, and if you didn't have 'slacks' you got bugged.
I never thought to think of where fashion has gone in the last 30-or-so years.

so lets end this discussion, go to BIG & TALL Shop and buy us a suit! Altho I'm not 'big' or 'tall'... maybe I'll check out Bill Newman's

[RePinion]

Originally Posted by DC83

I don't even know how you can tell what they're wearing. And what if there are stains? or holes? Or frays? I think your observation that people in that late-70's photo are dressed more business-like than people at that intersection today is false.

It might very well be false. It was, as you say, simply an observation. However, given the fact that the standards for business attire were higher across the board in that era, I don't think the inference I seek to draw is altogether irrational (in fact, I think it is quite sound).

But moving on ...

Originally Posted by DC83

All you've done so far is complain about it... be proactive! Come up with a solution! Write a letter to the Spec, maybe people will read it and say, "Wow, maybe I SHOULD wear a tie today".

I don't understand how you can dislike those who take a 'lax approach' to dressing in the CBD, but you're seeming to be doing the same re: any solutions "Well maybe someone else will write a letter. Hopefully someone else emails EcDev Hamilton. Somone Else... Someone Else..."

We didn't steer the City towards LRT by sitting on our hands and saying, "Gee I sure hope the City makes the right decision this time..."

It is evident that you miss the point of my critique. My argument wasn't really about the lax standard of dress in downtown Hamilton, but rather about the lax psychology of Hamiltonians generally, but particularly those in its business community.

It is extremely presumptuous of you to claim that I am not acting on my opinions. What the hell do you know about me? How dare you make such hollow, baseless accusations?

This is a discussion forum, a sounding board for opinions and ideas, and yes a place to bitch and complain as well. Action doesn't get taken here. Obviously the first step towards the taking of action, however, is the bringing to light of a problem.

How do you know what I do in my real life?

In my professional life in Hamilton I always sought to maintain a standard well above the norm for the city, and encouraged my colleagues and juniors to do the same. I'm obviously not going to reveal my identity on here, but since I started practising in Hamilton I've been heavily involved in professional standards programs through the HLA, programs to attract (and keep) talented young lawyers in Hamilton, and marketing outreach programs through the HLA and CoC to raise the awareness of Hamilton firms and businesses to potential clients who would normally just bypass this city altogether. I don't mean to sound derisive, but this alone probably amounts to a greater actual contribution to the well-being of the city than you will ever singlehandedly make.

[RePinion]

Originally Posted by FairHamilton

I think there has been a general trend to 'dress down' in general over the years.

IMO, there is a lower percentage of people who wear a suit to the office today, than 30 years ago. Not less people, but a lower percentage of people.

I generally agree, but there has been a marked return to formal business attire in some sectors of the economy over the last decade. I remember working on Bay Street in the 90s when even some the stodgiest whiteshoe firms started experimenting with "business casual". Needless to say, it didn't survive long. As soon as the economy dipped, most of these dress down policies were scrapped.

In major business centres, the general rule nowadays is suit (and probably tie) for those who work in areas like law and finance. People working at a professional level (unless you're too high up to be criticized) almost always dress up. The lower down the chain you go, the less stringent the standards are. But even support and admin level workers who might come into contact with clients are expected to dress to a high level.

As I have mentioned before, I personally believe that the effort you put into your personal appearance can also impact or at least reflect how seriously you take your work. This is why I think it is important for Hamilton firms and companies to insist on a higher standard of dress for their employees (and particularly for their executives and professionals) -- to at least project the image that we are not a bum-town but rather a serious competitor.

[DC83]

Originally Posted by RePinion

In my professional life in Hamilton I always sought to maintain a standard well above the norm for the city, and encouraged my colleagues and juniors to do the same. I'm obviously not going to reveal my identity on here, but since I started practising in Hamilton I've been heavily involved in professional standards programs through the HLA, programs to attract (and keep) talented young lawyers in Hamilton, and marketing outreach programs through the HLA and CoC to raise the awareness of Hamilton firms and businesses to potential clients who would normally just bypass this city altogether. I don't mean to sound derisive, but this alone probably amounts to a greater actual contribution to the well-being of the city than you will ever singlehandedly make.

^^ Great stuff, but how does that help our CBD look more 'professional'?

What I was trying to say was that Hamiltonians (or North Americans in general) are so quick to critique, but never want to do anything about it.

I don't know you, you're right. I don't really care to, to be honest. All I read was someone bitching about Hamilton and showing no interest in being a solution to the problem that affects them so deeply. You've responded by saying you encourage people around you to dress nice. That's all fine, but that's what, a couple people?

Here's an idea: Since you're involved with the Hamilton Business Community, why don't you guys come up with a fashion-type event/festival. Montreal, as an example, has the White Party (Bal en Blanc) every Spring. They encourage everyone to wear white for a week, and all the stores along Rue St Catherine design their window displays based on this event.
Get your business buddies together and come up with a similar plan, but maybe with suits? ties? Whatever!

There you go. An Idea... and surprise, someone else came up with it!

[RePinion]

Originally Posted by DC83

I don't know you, you're right. I don't really care to, to be honest.

LOL I can assure you the feeling is mutual.

[RePinion]

A fashion show -- is that really your suggestion? Yes, I guess that is an idea, strictly speaking ...

Actually there are some business dress fashion shows that have been held in Hamilton. The Hamilton club occassionally has one and a major firm in the city held one just recently for the benefit of articling students in the city ... I can't see that these things make any impact.

People know what they're supposed to be wearing, they just don't care, and they know that their colleague or boss doesn't care either, so the laxity just perpetuates.

As I implied in a post above, you need wide-ranging resolutions by people in the business culture (i.e. to be and look more competitive) before anything will change (and even then, I wonder if anything would). An agreement by business leaders in the city to enforce minimal dress codes in the workplace would be a very good start, but would be very difficult to achieve. Getting Hamilton business people together and then, god forbid, getting them to actually agree on something (especially a commitment that will actually require them to do some work) is harder than herding cats.

[DC83]

Originally Posted by RePinion

A fashion show -- is that really your suggestion? Yes, I guess that is an idea, strictly speaking ...

Actually there are some business dress fashion shows that have been held in Hamilton. The Hamilton club occassionally has one and a major firm in the city held one just recently for the benefit of articling students in the city ... I can't see that these things make any impact.

People know what they're supposed to be wearing, they just don't care, and they know that their colleague or boss doesn't care either, so the laxity just perpetuates.

As I implied in a post above, you need wide-ranging resolutions by people in the business culture (i.e. to be and look more competitive) before anything will change (and even then, I wonder if anything would). An agreement by business leaders in the city to enforce minimal dress codes in the workplace would be a very good start, but would be very difficult to achieve. Getting Hamilton business people together and then, god forbid, getting them to actually agree on something (especially a commitment that will actually require them to do some work) is harder than herding cats.

You're completely missing my point. It's great that a couple dozen business people get together and dress up once a year and whatnot, but it's a completely different game when you get the WHOLE CITY involved such as the White Party in Montreal.

This thread has been derailed, so I'm ending this. Lets get back onto the subject of Gore Park.

It's obvious who's on here to create solutions, and who's on here to squelch!

[raisethehammer]

I was just at the G&G in Hess Village (4:45pm, Friday).
Of the 67 people at the patio there and across the street at KOI/Sizzle, 14 were NOT wearing suits/ties.
This is common, as I'm in Hess regularly. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that they didn't all take an early GO Train from TO and arrive in the Village at 4:30 on a Friday. Especially since this is a common scene after work all summer long.
Obviously there are more suits in TO or NYC, but you said that 95% of people were embarrassing slobs. Sounds like we're in two different cities.

And yes, dress standards have dropped over the years...of course everyone looked better back then. Styles were way better. Todays modern style is such crap. Give me anything prior to 1980's any day of the week.

[adam]

We've seen a few examples of people who have moved away from a city in the past and feel the need to put it down to justify their original decision. Its self-destructive behaviour that ends up affecting everybody involved.

If you are looking for a London or NYC, then you are looking in the wrong place.

[SteelTown]

Generally when the economy is doing well people tend to dress down. When the economy gets rough people dress up.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Sorry I missed this thread earlier--it's one of the more interesting ones I've read in awhile. Enjoyed the photo of Gore Park of course--I believe we've discussed it previously--with a close eye you can see the cursive "Holiday Inn" signage on what is now the Crowne Plaza.

Bank of Hamilton was a beautiful building--and it's demolition was a loss to the fabric of downtown--it anchored what was once a wall of early "skyscrapers" along James between King and Main. Nonetheless, the Class A space of Commerce Place was desperately needed--and CIBC brought their SW Ontario regional offices to the site. I may be incorrect--but I believe the original B of H building was red sandstone--not sure. Several floors were added to on top of the building at some point afterward--and the lower levels were covered in pink marble at some point in the 1950s or 60s during a "modernization".

I really enjoyed reading the posts about dress and attitude. While I don't find "business casual" offensive--it's introduction really started us downhill on a slippery slope. I remember going to the bank with my folks as a kid--everything was formal, crisp, business-like--now when you go to a bank branch it's a free-for-all. I'm not sure that the trend of lousy/sloppy dress is exclusive to Hamilton--but you certainly see less of it in the larger centers. Overall there is a lack of importance placed on simply "looking good" whether it's for work or non-work purposes. Even as someone who wears a uniform to work everyday, I'm one of the few (in my unscientific poll) of my co-workers who makes sure the thing is pressed and there's a bit of polish on the boots. Even on a Saturday it would be nice to see some people make an effort--a little less of the Zubaz pants/Coors Light tank top combos.

Glad someone mentioned Montreal--ever go downtown there on a weekday morning? It's amazing--EVERYONE looks good, regardless of gender, age, size or occupation. Stand in one of the train stations and the women coming in on the AMT trains look like they walked out of a magazine...seriously.

[RePinion]

Originally Posted by DC83

You're completely missing my point. It's great that a couple dozen business people get together and dress up once a year and whatnot, but it's a completely different game when you get the WHOLE CITY involved such as the White Party in Montreal.

This thread has been derailed, so I'm ending this. Lets get back onto the subject of Gore Park.

It's obvious who's on here to create solutions, and who's on here to squelch!

Isn't the white party/bal en blanc just a big rave essentially? Anyway, Montrealers don't really need to be encouraged to dress well as they have always been the most stylish people in the nation by far.

As for your remark re squelching: pointing out what one believes to be a problem or shortcoming is not tantamount to squelching. Not even close. Squelching is by definition a form of suppression. The fact that I don't have a ready solution to the problem I identify is not squelching at all (and it is extremely unreasonable of you to demand that I have such a solution ready-to-hand).

To the people who say "don't hold Hamilton to the standard of London or New York". Well, that is indeed a form of squelching.

Too often this forum devolves into unproductive Hamilton apologism.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by RePinion

Too often this forum devolves into unproductive Hamilton apologism.

This is true.

[adam]

Originally Posted by RePinion

To the people who say "don't hold Hamilton to the standard of London or New York". Well, that is indeed a form of squelching.

Too often this forum devolves into unproductive Hamilton apologism.

This might come as a shock to you, but I would rather live in Hamilton than London or NYC. My standard of living is higher here. I can escape to great natural surroundings easily, not be choked by overcrowded population, have clean drinking water, I can be a part of a tight knit community, children can get a great public education, etc, etc, etc... I could go on if you want. Hamilton is exactly where I want to live. I'm here because I chose to be here.


Here is my above comment posted again, as I stand by it...

Originally Posted by adam

If you are looking for a London or NYC, then you are looking in the wrong place.

[omro]

Originally Posted by adam

This might come as a shock to you, but I would rather live in Hamilton than London or NYC. My standard of living is higher here. I can escape to great natural surroundings easily, not be choked by overcrowded population, have clean drinking water, I can be a part of a tight knit community, children can get a great public education, etc, etc, etc... I could go on if you want. Hamilton is exactly where I want to live. I'm here because I chose to be here.

That's why I'm planning to move there next year Well, without the children part

But I am choosing to live there. See the Moving to Hamilton thread.