Dawn Sloane: Bring box stores downtown

[beyeas]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

As Fenwick and others have pointed out, in order to have a vibrant (and retail friendly) downtown, you actually have to have people living downtown. This requires allowing high density residential (which will mean building up, not out).

This point is indeed the absolute key. There could be free parking and ultra-low property taxes, but if no one lives downtown there will still not be businesses who can make a go of it.

The biggest single thing we could do is densify downtown living. If there were thousands more people living downtown, then businesses would be able to look past the taxes anyway because they could still be profitable. People who would choose downtown condo living are the exact people who want to be able to walk to restaurants, walk to a grocery market, walk to a book store etc.

Doing things that add residential density is THE key thing here... everything else done to encourage downtown businesses only flows from this.

[Nouvellecosse]

Sorry, but a city's downtown should be a major draw and a focus for people across its metro area. When a city's downtown can only support the stores and businesses that serve its own local residents I don't consider the downtown to be a successful one. A successful neighbourhood maybe, but not a successful CBD.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by beyeas

This point is indeed the absolute key. There could be free parking and ultra-low property taxes, but if no one lives downtown there will still not be businesses who can make a go of it.

The biggest single thing we could do is densify downtown living. If there were thousands more people living downtown, then businesses would be able to look past the taxes anyway because they could still be profitable. People who would choose downtown condo living are the exact people who want to be able to walk to restaurants, walk to a grocery market, walk to a book store etc.

Doing things that add residential density is THE key thing here... everything else done to encourage downtown businesses only flows from this.

Taking a '35,000 foot' approach, it seems to me the way to make this work is a multi-approach:

1. Taxation change
2. Encourage more density and intensification not just in the downtown core but around it
3. Better transit
4. LESS parking

If you increase suburban commercial tax rates and then provide a proportioned tax decrease in the core or some system of taxation that any new development is either exempt or pays less (but you increase taxes if they keep lots vacant or as parking lot - thus being an encouragement to GET ON WITH a development) - something along those lines, that could help counter balance or tip the balance back into downtown's favour. I'd want to see what Vancouver and Toronto have done - if anything to promote redevelopment along Yonge and Eglington or along Cambie (where there is big box retail and then residential above).

Even if you factor out viewplanes, there is going to come a point where most of the opportunity sites will be actually developed. So it's not just a matter of infilling in the DT core, but around it too. As much as people think (and I"m sure know there would be opposition); push it through anyway. Encourage the South end around Fenwick, Agricola, Gottingen Street and Quinpool to intensify. Support more infill in dt Dartmouth and around it.

I posted a video about the streetcar demo in Vancouver and one of the things that the transportation staff found was that if you made people on transit feel important and gave them a comfortable ride - you could attract more people out of their cars. It wasn't about the cheap seats or feeling cramped on a smelly bus. If you use a good comfortable LRT or a streetcar - you can get more people.

Less parking - not more. If you get good transit access; you don't need more parking. I'll point out the Pearl District in Portland - 3 billion dollars in redevelopment and not a single parking space required for any of the commercial ground floor developments. I don't believe any of it would be 'big box retail' - but the point still stands.

[beyeas]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Sorry, but a city's downtown should be a major draw and a focus for people across its metro area. When a city's downtown can only support the stores and businesses that serve its own local residents I don't consider the downtown to be a successful one. A successful neighbourhood maybe, but not a successful CBD.

Regionalism is a HUGE problem in the () HRM. You just have to read the CBC comments page to see people saying that they hate "Halifax", would never go there anyway, etc.

I don't disagree with you, but I think that growth will have to start with new high density residential, and it is only then that you will have the vibrancy and all that comes with it (more people, more cafes, more stuff going on, better mass transit links to downtown etc) that will draw people in from other parts.

[someone123]

Part of the issue here is that the downtown is multi-purpose. Sometimes we talk about it as an office district, sometimes we talk about retail. Improving different functions requires different solutions.

Personally I'd suggest mostly giving up on the 1970s-style highrise office downtown core. I dislike suburban office parks for a whole bunch of reasons but there's lots of room all around the core for offices. High-end businesses will naturally locate near attractive neighbourhoods that permit development.

The retail issue mostly comes down to a combination of local population and transit (so that people can get downtown and so that downtown residents without cars can get around the city). Put in 15,000 new residents and a good high-frequency transit system and the problem is fixed. This is basically all that Vancouver has done -- there's been very little downtown office growth here.

I think the biggest question is how to induce more residential development in the core. The best answer is probably tax breaks. Explicit tax increases for suburban areas are not going to fly.

Focusing on retail directly is pointless because without a decent market new stores will fail. Efforts to draw in suburban shoppers have been the focus of the last 50 years of downtown planning and have failed utterly.

I agree that the petty regionalism is messed up.

[Nouvellecosse]

Tax breaks are good, but what would also help is to not make it so darn difficult to actually build in central areas. I'm sure developers know that if they want a new 10 story highrise condo or apartment building, it will require a battle if they build almost anywhere other than virgin land on the periphery. If they build downtown, there are people hollering about density, shadows, historical "feel", view planes, launching court challenges, etc...

Who the heck is going to want to bother with that when they don't need to?

Now I'm definitely not suggesting developers get free reign and be allowed to raze historic buildings and neighbourhoods for the sake of increased density, but the peninsula could easily support another 30-40K people by simply allowing things like laneway housing, and allowing empty and under-utilized lots to be built with midrise and highrise residential.

If we aim for a peninsular density of about 5,000 ppskm, the city would be infinitely more vibrant and enjoyable in all aspects.

[Architype]

I just noticed this thread, and I think it's a concept that will eventually be successful in medium size and smaller cities as well as larger ones.

Vancouver has some good examples, at least close to downtown:


http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&ie=...54.54,,0,-8.26

[spaustin]

What about a tax on parking spaces? That would be infinitely simpler and might tilt some of the economic calculation back in favour of the Downtown. The funds raised could be dedicated to improving transit, which would further help the core compete. Obviously it's not a complete solution, as the Peninsula really needs more people, but it might form part of a broader policy setup.

[downtowndawn]

This is known as a stall tax and is used all over north america. I have tried several time to have this adopted by Council, but they do not see the value in it. I do. I think this would be the best way to fund transit and even the playing field for the commercial businesses (along with commercial tax reform)

[downtowndawn]

Originally Posted by Architype

I just noticed this thread, and I think it's a concept that will eventually be successful in medium size and smaller cities as well as larger ones.

Vancouver has some good examples, at least close to downtown:


http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&ie=...54.54,,0,-8.26

This was an example I used today. They allowed the businesses in before the residential and it is successful. with that being said, our downtown doesn't need full blown warehouses, but smaller satellite stores like in NYC (home depot) Toronto (Ikea).

[fenwick16]

One thing that pops into my mind is - cities such as NYC, Toronto and Vancouver have rapid transit and dense downtown residential numbers. I am not being negative, I just wonder if it is a good comparison to use such cities as an example. Maybe Halifax needs the dense residential development first.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by Architype

I just noticed this thread, and I think it's a concept that will eventually be successful in medium size and smaller cities as well as larger ones.

Vancouver has some good examples, at least close to downtown:


http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&ie=...54.54,,0,-8.26

This is exactly the area I was thinking of in my previous comments.
My only concern Councillor Sloane about getting these stores into 'downtown' is that there is very limited retail at grade spaces (I'm thinking along Barrington) that this could fit into for a workable 'urban style' size.

You might have better luck doing it on a brand new building because it would have a bigger and more open floor plate, but this begs the question of whether you want this right in the CBD (Central Business District) or in areas on the edge like Quinpool, Spring Garden Road or Agricola areas? This way you could then do a similar idea with putting residential above?

Like the 'stall' tax. There seems to be support for a stall tax on here; so perhaps if there is an official case created for this research, once the information is posted we can provide comments to the planning staff?

[Nouvellecosse]

What about Gottingen? At one time it was a major retail strip and now is largely under-performing. There are several places where a larger store could be accommodated, and it's served well by transit.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by downtowndawn

This was an example I used today. They allowed the businesses in before the residential and it is successful. with that being said, our downtown doesn't need full blown warehouses, but smaller satellite stores like in NYC (home depot) Toronto (Ikea).

Most of those larger stores along Cambie are in mixed-use developments with residential on the upper floors. That street is also adjacent to what would be high-density residential areas in Halifax. These areas have been undergoing intensification for decades. They're probably more densely populated than anywhere in Halifax and are not considered a part of downtown Vancouver (which is enormously successful yet packed with the sort of highrises that are strongly opposed in Halifax).

These stores were built because they're profitable. They're not the result of a metro-wide policy requiring big box retailers to open big box stores.

Also these areas have subway service (Canada Line) and articulated buses equivalent to the MetroLink in Halifax running every 2 minutes or so at peak periods (good enough that you don't worry about waiting -- just show up at the stop and a bus will be there). Halifax transit is kind of a joke in comparison. Not many people rely on it exclusively unless they have no choice, so more people need parking downtown.

[halifaxboyns]

There are photo examples of a variety or urban format big box retail not only from Toronto and Vancouver but from all over in this thread.

[PoscStudent]

This sounds like a dumb idea, Halifax doesn't have the population to support such an idea. Why not look at lowering taxes for businesses who set up in the downtown core instead?

What is Halifax's downtown like now, is there many vacant buildings around?

[wackypacky]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

What about Gottingen? At one time it was a major retail strip and now is largely under-performing. There are several places where a larger store could be accommodated, and it's served well by transit.

I think gottingen still has a ways to go yet before many business's will want to locate there.

[CorbeauNoir]

Originally Posted by wackypacky

I think gottingen still has a ways to go yet before many business's will want to locate there.

I remember reading in The Coast (take that as you will) a while back that there are some plans to reintroduce some retail onto Gottingen, but it would be more residential-scale kinda stuff (grocery store, bank, stuff like that)

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

There are photo examples of a variety or urban format big box retail not only from Toronto and Vancouver but from all over in this thread.

In fact I'd say downtown Halifax already has an example of this kind of scaled-down retail in the Mountain Equipment Co-Op (or the BabyMEC, as I always call it). I'd love to see similar kinds of scaled-down versions of large retail stores (I'm still amazed that downtown doesn't even have an HBC), but I think doing so lies more with offering incentives rather than issuing demands.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by PoscStudent

This sounds like a dumb idea, Halifax doesn't have the population to support such an idea.

That isn't really true.
If you look at the examples in the skyscraper thread, population (total) would be irrelevant. What I mean is; if you look at the Vancouver examples - in most cases, residential was provided above. So there would be some people already living in the area and the more people moving in above the stores.

In the case of Cambie, there was existing residential and then a number of the buildings were built in close succession (pretty much one after the other) so the cumulative population in the area kept going up, as each new building was completed and occupied. So population wouldn't be a limiting factor in that sort of concept.

It would be slightly different if it was in an area where there was little to no residential population. If Gottingen Street was turned into a new urban 'big box' area - there is some population near by, given the combination of residential types. But if the only thing they built was the store itself and didn't add residential (like what happened with staples) - you may find that the stores would probably stuggle until residential development caught up.

Personally, I don't really see the value of these types of stores in the CBD of Halifax or Dartmouth. The potential floor plates of most approved or proposed buildings wouldn't even be big enough for an urban format big box store. The areas that might be good for it on the Halifax side would probably be along Gottingen, the Agricola area, Young Street near the Superstore or along Quinpool. But my caveat to that would be - don't just build the store. Do what Vancouver did and require residential above it.

With Dartmouth, I see the Dartmouth Shopping Centre Area being a great potential location for this style.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by CorbeauNoir

In fact I'd say downtown Halifax already has an example of this kind of scaled-down retail in the Mountain Equipment Co-Op (or the BabyMEC, as I always call it).

The downtown area also has a Staples (on Gottingen!) and Superstore. The Staples has underground parking. Either one could have been built with residential on top and a better overall design.

There are already a bunch of other retail developments in Halifax with underground or structured parking and residential on top. Examples are Park Lane, CCA (with Pete's), Spring Garden Place... Around Barrington office towers on top were more popular (Maritime Centre, Scotia Square -- these older designs had more problems unfortunately).

Soon there's a good chance we'll see a major NSLC location with residential (Clyde Street lot on Queen). And we'll still have people arguing over whether or not it's possible.