Vision in 2014

[memememe76]

Business owners (and their employees) consume those same services as residents. Business owners benefit from increased transit, garbage pick-up, police, snow removal, etc too.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by jlousa

I think it's only fair that residential units pay enough tax to cover the services they consume instead of receiving a subsidy from business. Right now the taxes residents pay don't cover the cost of services they receive from the city. If we were to increase the taxes gradually on residential units until they did cover costs that would allow commercial rates to drop to more reasonable levels.
Commercial property taxes are also a tax deductible expense so we need to keep that in mind too. The ratio of 4:1 isn't the biggest problem as you'll notice other local cities are all pretty similar, the biggest issue is the land valuations because of the threat of upzoning.

Do you have a source for that? I'd guess that highrise condo owners pay more than they receive in municipal services. SFH owners, maybe not so much.

[jlousa]

City of Vancouver releases their annual report every year, it's on their website and should be easy to find. If you can't locate it pm me and I'll dig it up.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by jlousa

City of Vancouver releases their annual report every year, it's on their website and should be easy to find. If you can't locate it pm me and I'll dig it up.

I can see the annual report, but it doesn't break down revenues vs expenses by source. (ie: residential vs. commercial)

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by memememe76

Business owners (and their employees) consume those same services as residents.

Of course. But residents pay $0.56 for each dollar of city services they use, while businesses pay $2.42 for each dollar of services used, according to a study commissioned by the city in 2007.

Overall, Vancouver residents used $388 million in city services in 2006, but paid only $217 million for these services through residential property taxes. Vancouver businesses, by contrast, used $111 million of services, but paid $292 million through property taxes.

So, in addition to providing us with employment, a relatively small class of people are subsidizing our personal use of city services too.

[SFUVancouver]

It would be very difficulty to analyze and quantify, but businesses do benefit from more than just the direct services they consume. There is the ever-ephemeral quality of life factor that helps draw talent or keep them here, and the parks, libraries, support for the arts, etc., play into that. The value of the land owned by property owners, who are seldom the same as the business owners ultimately paying the freight, is positively influenced by proximity to thriving neighbourhoods with public amenities and stable residential populations, or in areas where public decisions regarding zoning and planning have allowed concentrated commercial areas which come with considerable opportunity costs. Moreover, property owners and businesses benefit from major infrastructure and transportation investment that accompany commercial areas but may only have a small marginal cost of use, yet have been financed through municipal borrowing. Finally, there is the rather blunt reality that municipalities are set up to serve their citizens first, and businesses second. Despite the United States' Citizens United case, which has no bearing here, companies are not people. They are quite simply different before the eyes of the law and government and 'tax fairness' for companies doesn't look the same as 'tax fairness' for a person.

I support the tax shift that has occurred and would favour continuing it further to, perhaps a 60/40 residential/commercial split, reversing the original ratio, but even in that scenario the proportional tax burden will still fall more heavily on commercial properties. We would have to get down to the low 20s, high teens before a strict balance would be achieved and I don't know what that sort of city looks like or if it would have the desired effect of super-charging our business creation and attraction velocity. There's a lot more than just property taxes to be considered by a company when it it is making locational decisions.

[Prometheus]

Everyone benefits from more than just the direct services they consume, SFUVancouver. And residents who rely on businesses to provide them with all the commercial services, products and innovations that make their lives better, not to mention their very incomes from employment, benefit no less than businesses from the major infrastructure and transportation investment that accompany commercial areas. And thus whether a neighbourhood is thriving or not depends as much on its proximity to flourishing businesses as the value of commercial property depends on its proximity to neighbourhoods. It's a symbiotic relationship.

So, let's just call it even. Except that it's not. What should be a symbiotic relationship is more a parasitical one, under current tax policy. And that's a detriment to the health of the entire body politic:

Downtown Vancouver has country’s highest commercial-to-residential tax ratios

By Emma Crawford
Mon Oct 15, 2012

Vancouver’s downtown area has Canada’s highest commercial-to-residential property tax ratios, followed by Toronto and Montreal, according to a survey released today by the Altus Group for the Real Property Association of Canada (REALpac).

The 2012 Property Tax Rate Analysis found the commercial-to-residential tax ratios for those three cities to be in excess of 4:1.

REALpac CEO Paul Morse said the ratios are “deeply” concerning, because the damage that the inequitable commercial-residential tax has on an area’s ability to attract jobs and businesses.

“Our urban centres are vitally important and at the moment are expanding due to tenant demand and relatively low interest rates,” said Morse. “High realty taxes are a barrier to business growth and, in the long run, put a chokehold on investment in downtown office, hotel, apartment and retail property development.”

REALpac states that a healthy commercial-to-residential tax ratio would be around 2:1. Morse said this ratio could be achieved by gradually reducing the commercial rate.

“Jobs are at the core of a thriving city economy,” he said. “With so many fundamental shifts taking place in our global economy, Canadian cities need to do what they can to accelerate business growth around where people want to live, not scare it away.”

http://www.biv.com/article/20121015/...-commercial-to

[Stingray2004]

Originally Posted by spm2013

For Vancouver civic politic nerds. How much of Vision's voting base (not the people who attend meetings) were swing voters from NPA. I understand there's still that large old COPE base, but isn't it more centrist in terms of voting with support from both sides?

Very good point. I have read about quite a few BC Liberal provincial political operatives/insiders involved with VV. The many names are all in the public domain if ya know where to look.

And yes, many former NPA voters (not operatives) do vote VV.

VV could be categorized as centre/centre-left with a strong "green" tinge. As an aside, TEAM, under former mayor Art Phillips in the '70's, was centre/centre right with a "reformist" tinge.

If the NPA does indeed have a mayoral candidate with some star power (both Carole Taylor or Trevor Linden would have done it - no doubt about it - albeit they are out), that same NPA mayoral star power would also have long political coat-tails in terms of winning council seats as well as parks board and school board.

The NPA's yet to be announced mayoral candidate will determine the political dynamic for the November muni election.

As an aside, JMI's approval rating poll of Van City's mayor from just last week. Compare the mayoral approval rating from October, 2011 (just before the muni election) to today. A harbinger of things to come? Will be interesting:

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Prometheus

Of course. But residents pay $0.56 for each dollar of city services they use, while businesses pay $2.42 for each dollar of services used, according to a study commissioned by the city in 2007.

Overall, Vancouver residents used $388 million in city services in 2006, but paid only $217 million for these services through residential property taxes. Vancouver businesses, by contrast, used $111 million of services, but paid $292 million through property taxes.

So, in addition to providing us with employment, a relatively small class of people are subsidizing our personal use of city services too.

Vancouver runs on peddling residential real estate. Anything that threatens to make said residential real estate less attractive (like high taxes) will not be allowed to happen. Business owners will continue beign stuck with their split.

[a very long weekend]

i don't know how the discussion of residential/commercial property tax rates can even be said to make sense without underlining how few revenue options canadian cities have. like, the province basically leaves them with fees (but even these are overseen by provincial leg) and property tax. like, if the city could add its own sales tax, an income tax, congestion pricing or road tolls - if it could even introduce special rate districts to tax wealthy or high infrastructure needs districts - this absurd situation would be moot. so the real problem isn't this tax shifting, it's that the province has for decades been hostile to granting the city real revenue raising powers. like, who benefits?

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Vancouver runs on peddling residential real estate. Anything that threatens to make said residential real estate less attractive (like high taxes) will not be allowed to happen. Business owners will continue beign stuck with their split.

That is really the crux as to why there is a huge inequality between business and residential taxes. But to solve that, the municipal government simply has to be disciplined in designating areas that are strictly commercial. Sadly, this was not the case, especially with the NPA.

There are many many areas very close to the CBD that you can put condos on, even today. In Yaletown, for example, there are still huge swaths of surface parking lots at Seymour and Richards. So there is absolutely no rationale as to why they cannot do a proper shift between commercial and residential taxes within the CBD itself.

At the end of the day, the municipal elections in Vancouver is really about picking the lesser of two evils. And again, while Vision is not perfect, its still a better party than the NPA with a much more productive and progressive track record. I disagree wholeheartedly on their bike lanes, social engineering and tearing down of Georgia viaducts, but I disagree even more so with table top skylines, NIMBY pandering and useless streetcars that would only service an already well serviced tiny area even more.

[WBC]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

That is really the crux as to why there is a huge inequality between business and residential taxes. But to solve that, the municipal government simply has to be disciplined in designating areas that are strictly commercial. Sadly, this was not the case, especially with the NPA.

There are many many areas very close to the CBD that you can put condos on, even today. In Yaletown, for example, there are still huge swaths of surface parking lots at Seymour and Richards. So there is absolutely no rationale as to why they cannot do a proper shift between commercial and residential taxes within the CBD itself.

At the end of the day, the municipal elections in Vancouver is really about picking the lesser of two evils. And again, while Vision is not perfect, its still a better party than the NPA with a much more productive and progressive track record. I disagree wholeheartedly on their bike lanes, social engineering and tearing down of Georgia viaducts, but I disagree even more so with table top skylines, NIMBY pandering and useless streetcars that would only service an already well serviced tiny area even more.

Agreed. But that makes things kind of sad...They should take campaign money out of muni politics...That would solve a few issues...

[EastVanMark]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

At the end of the day, the municipal elections in Vancouver is really about picking the lesser of two evils. And again, while Vision is not perfect, its still a better party than the NPA with a much more productive and progressive track record. I disagree wholeheartedly on their bike lanes, social engineering and tearing down of Georgia viaducts, but I disagree even more so with table top skylines, NIMBY pandering and useless streetcars that would only service an already well serviced tiny area even more.

Sadly, you're take on municipal elections are dead on. Voting in municipal elections in Vancouver is like choosing which eye you want to jam an icepick into. All local parties are out to lunch, its just a question of who will do the least amount of damage. A sad state of affairs. BTW in regards to Vision being better than the NPA, that's like being the smartest kid in Summer school. Not exactly shooting for the moon.