hypothetical - tearing down Scotia Square

[fenwick16]

This is a hypothetical question.

With all the talk regarding HRMbyDesign and making Halifax a more people friendly city what would it cost to entice Halifax Developments Ltd. (HDL) to tear down Scotia Square and redevelop it into a development that recreates the previous street grid (recreate Buckingham Street)? Allow HDL or some other developer to redevelop it with ramparts maximum height limits as in HRMbyDesign but with all required set backs and without the huge podium at the bottom that cut downtown Halifax off from North End Halifax. Maybe this could be part of a Cogswell Interchange redevelopment?

What if the city could buy Scotia Square for $100 million and then demolish it, allow rampart maximum height on that site as in HRMbyDesign and sell the land for redevelopment. Certainly the city would lose a lot of money on the deal but this would probably be a much better use of money than for example building a new Metro Centre.

[haligonia]

Hmm, interesting thought, fenwick.

Do you know if HDL owns the 3 apartment buildings between Brunswick/Albemarle? If so, perhaps a possible redevelpment could include tearing those down and rebuilding the block as a mixed use building, with space for residential, a bit of commercial, and a multipurpose 200 seat theatre for smaller musical acts and theatre. (I know Eastern Front would kill for a new permanent home.) And it could be all connected with a pedway over Albemarle or maybe a two or three storey structure perched above Albemarle connecting the two blocks. Of course, this is all just imaginary; it's pretty clear scotia square is not going anywhere soon, but it's nice to think of what it could be. It's kind of sad that the first thing a lot of people see when entering downtown is this concrete mess.

[Doggard]

I dig this idea. The first thing that comes to mind though, is that the city isn't even willing to pony up the cash to take down the cogswell interchange yet. It makes me think that they wouldn't be willing to pay to demolish a large structure like scotia square that, for better or for worse, serves a purpose. I would love to see it taken into consideration when the time comes to redevelop the interchange though. Lots of potential there.

[worldlyhaligonian]

I think a reclad and reworking of the site would make much more sense.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

I think a reclad and reworking of the site would make much more sense.

A reclad might make sense but I wonder if there is also a way to partly demolish (if full demolition is not practical) the podium so it has a smaller footprint and Buchingham Street could be recreated. I think the Trade Mart might have to be demolished to integrate the North End and downtown core. Personally, I don't hate the way that Scotia Square looks, it is just that I would like to see the North End reintegrated with the downtown core. This would be a logical place to extend the downtown core as Halifax grows.

PS: Look at what is being done to the NS Power Plant; maybe something even more drastic can be done to Scotia Square.

[worldlyhaligonian]

For sure, I think a public space like a park with fountains could be opened up between the towers. I actually like the scale of the tower alot and it would be a shame to lose towers in a city that hardly has any.

I think that you could make it a pedestrian mall for the recreated street that would be open from all directions.

[Jonovision]

The three residential towers up on Brunswick are owned by RealStar Properties. And they also own Cunard Court down the street.

I think in the not to distant future we could see some work happen at Scotia Square. The mall is dying, and companies coming into the city don't want the old office space that is provided in these towers. So I definitely think something has to be down at least to the interior of the towers to make them at least Class B space. I've also been told there are two more pads for towers on top of the large podium of Scotia Square.

I've always been interested in the small crumbling outside area that runs from the second floor of the mall out to Abermarle street where the MetroX stop is. I think it would be cool if that could be cleaned up and continued straight down to Barrington, and then a second one could be blown through on the opposite axis, connecting Duke Street and Cogswell. Then all the shops could be turned out from the mall to face these two pedestrian streets as well as the surrounding streets. Externalizing the mall and getting rid of all the dead space surrounding the entire block.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Jonovision

The three residential towers up on Brunswick are owned by RealStar Properties. And they also own Cunard Court down the street.

I think in the not to distant future we could see some work happen at Scotia Square. The mall is dying, and companies coming into the city don't want the old office space that is provided in these towers. So I definitely think something has to be down at least to the interior of the towers to make them at least Class B space. I've also been told there are two more pads for towers on top of the large podium of Scotia Square.

I've always been interested in the small crumbling outside area that runs from the second floor of the mall out to Abermarle street where the MetroX stop is. I think it would be cool if that could be cleaned up and continued straight down to Barrington, and then a second one could be blown through on the opposite axis, connecting Duke Street and Cogswell. Then all the shops could be turned out from the mall to face these two pedestrian streets as well as the surrounding streets. Externalizing the mall and getting rid of all the dead space surrounding the entire block.

I know the area you are referring to (the small crumbling outside area); this was a small exterior courtyard with landscaping in the early 70's. What if, as you say this could be cut right through, and also demolish the parkade and Delta Hotel and replace it with something more modern (example; one rampart height tower with residential/hotel/office). Maybe the 3 apartment buildings along Albemarle and Brunswick Streets could also be torn down and the parking could be put there along with just one modern rampart height apartment tower. Then the Duke Towers and Barrington Towers could be saved as they are.

[alps]

Originally Posted by Jonovision

The three residential towers up on Brunswick are owned by RealStar Properties. And they also own Cunard Court down the street.

I think in the not to distant future we could see some work happen at Scotia Square. The mall is dying, and companies coming into the city don't want the old office space that is provided in these towers. So I definitely think something has to be down at least to the interior of the towers to make them at least Class B space. I've also been told there are two more pads for towers on top of the large podium of Scotia Square.

I've always been interested in the small crumbling outside area that runs from the second floor of the mall out to Abermarle street where the MetroX stop is. I think it would be cool if that could be cleaned up and continued straight down to Barrington, and then a second one could be blown through on the opposite axis, connecting Duke Street and Cogswell. Then all the shops could be turned out from the mall to face these two pedestrian streets as well as the surrounding streets. Externalizing the mall and getting rid of all the dead space surrounding the entire block.

I really like these ideas. I think the courtyard more or less follows the old Buckingham St route. I would love to see that weird one-story bunker (call centre or something) on the corner of Albemarle and Duke redeveloped.

[City_of_Lakes]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

I think a reclad and reworking of the site would make much more sense.

Is there even a plan for the near future for recladding? I reeeaally dislike the look of it now, but I think that would solve most of (what I perceive as) the aesthetic problem.

Also, tearing down part of that MASSIVE podium would be nice, too.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Jonovision

I've always been interested in the small crumbling outside area that runs from the second floor of the mall out to Abermarle street where the MetroX stop is. I think it would be cool if that could be cleaned up and continued straight down to Barrington, and then a second one could be blown through on the opposite axis, connecting Duke Street and Cogswell. Then all the shops could be turned out from the mall to face these two pedestrian streets as well as the surrounding streets. Externalizing the mall and getting rid of all the dead space surrounding the entire block.

That plaza on Abermarle was originally supposed to be the main entry to SS. The original plan was for all the buses to utilize Market St (now Abermarle) but fairly late in the game the decision was made to move the stops to Barrington. Anyway, that is why that area exists as it does (or did -- it used to be fairly attractive originally) and it took you onto what used to be the second level of the original mall, with Woolco, the theater, and some other fairly nice shops. Of course, now there is no retail up there.

Part of the reason for the large podium on Barrington is, I think, the severe hill that the place is built on.

[hfx_chris]

For what it's worth, that courtyard area at the back of the mall is slowly being redone. As I recall from last week, the concrete is torn up for a good portion of it nearest the street, and all new gardens/walkways were put in. It looks really good.

It's actually funny you guys brought this up, because for a while now I've been thinking that it would be nice if they could just cut Scotia Square basically into two, right down the middle where that rear courtyard is. It's not wide enough to turn it into a street again, but it could certainly become a pedestrian street. And in fact it gets even better, because across Albermarle there's a gap between the two apartment towers, so it even in theory could continue right up to Brunswick Street.

You could even do it again; further down Albermarle is that section of the parkade with the curved ramp exiting from E level. That ramp could be removed or reworked, and the podium could be further split up through there, basically turning it into three smaller chunks of building. The only thing about that section is that it's where the ramps are that go between parkade levels, but engineers are clever people, I'm sure they could come up with a solution

The only thing that's wrong with Scotia Square as I see it...is that it's just so freaking large. I'm not talking from a "cuts off the north end" perspective, I just mean it's physically imposing from street level (especially Barrington), and difficult to walk around. You basically have to walk through it. It definitely serves a purpose mind you, the food court is always amazing busy at lunch, and the office space is needed. The Delta is a good hotel, and the parkade is as far as I'm concerned required. Somebody mentioned demolishing part of it, but I think that would be a huge mistake.

As far as the exterior is concerned.. well the whole thing could use some major work. It's amazing what a little paint will do, I mean look at Queen Square - it looked like garbage until it was painted last year, now it looks great! But I think this will take more than just paint. Specifically, on the Barrington side, the building looks fine from the Cogswell Interchange down as far as the pedway connecting to Barrington Place. From there to Duke Street it looks horrible. Why? Because from there to Duke it's just a massive tall concrete wall next to the sidewalk. Because of the terrain, it isn't as tall from the pedway to Cogswell, and it's set back a good distance from the sidewalk. I mean, there's even trees along there! It would be great if they could install windows, or some sort of glass cladding along that side of the building from the pedway to Duke street - and relocate those stupid exhaust vents. Same with the ones near the steps by the pedway, all they do is blow warm, stale air that smells like food on you while you're waiting for a bus, and attract questionable people seeking warmth.
It would be even better if that section of the podium could somehow be stepped back from Barrington a bit, to match the section to the north, although I know that would be impossible for Barrington Tower.

So, if they could find a way to "cut" it up into smaller sections, build some sort of pedestrian mall between Barrington and Albermarle, and improve the street-level visual appeal... I think it would be just fine.

Oh and I almost forgot. They need to really do something with that Duke Street side of the building. Maybe add a little street-level retail, something to look at!

Oh yes, and can't forget my wish for a pedway over Duke Street connecting the parkade/Albermarle and the upper walkway around the perimeter of the Metro Centre.

[hfx_chris]

Originally Posted by Jonovision

I've also been told there are two more pads for towers on top of the large podium of Scotia Square.

You know I've always wondered about that section at the podium, at the corner of Duke and Albermarle. It looks like it was left that way with the intention of someday building another tower on top of it. Maybe they could, and maybe somehow integrate it with the Metro Centre. Dunno how, but somehow

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by hfx_chris

It's actually funny you guys brought this up, because for a while now I've been thinking that it would be nice if they could just cut Scotia Square basically into two, right down the middle where that rear courtyard is. It's not wide enough to turn it into a street again, but it could certainly become a pedestrian street. And in fact it gets even better, because across Albermarle there's a gap between the two apartment towers, so it even in theory could continue right up to Brunswick Street.

This would make a huge difference. It would be great if it were possible to make this wider (some demolition would be required) so that it could be a functioning street that would go right through the apartment complex and Scotia Square (even if one apartment building had to be demolished and replaced with something more modern). One problem with Scotia Square is that Market Street (Albemarle Street) is so dead (at least it was back in the early to mid 70's). If there was just some way to attract people to this street, maybe with street level retail and lots of landscaping.

It in interesting to think that in another 30 - 40 years, Scotia Square will become part of Halifax's heritage as will many of the current downtown towers (there are a couple generations of Haligonians who were not born when Scotia Square was started). I remember how impressed that I used to be looking up at the Delta Hotel on top of all the parkade levels (I think this was a Holiday Inn at one time?). So maybe tearing this section down isn't such a great idea.

[Dmajackson]

Originally Posted by hfx_chris

It's actually funny you guys brought this up, because for a while now I've been thinking that it would be nice if they could just cut Scotia Square basically into two, right down the middle where that rear courtyard is. It's not wide enough to turn it into a street again, but it could certainly become a pedestrian street. And in fact it gets even better, because across Albermarle there's a gap between the two apartment towers, so it even in theory could continue right up to Brunswick Street.

It appears to be the remnaments of Buckingham(?) Street. If you look down at Granville Street Mall the short section where it turns to meet Hollis/Water Street is exactly in line with the rear courtyard and the gap in the apartment buildings. The rebuilding of the Granville Street streetscape some how ended up with an addition blocking the connection to Barrington Street (probably to build the Purdy's pedway). It you look in Bing's bird's eye view its clear that the addition was added on (different height) and not originally part of the street. I don't think I would be off base to say whoever rebuilt Granville Street knew of the plans for International Place and built the addition to connect the developments.

The street appeared to stretch from Brunswick to Upper Water with an extension heading to the waterfront which is now the path connecting to Cows.

My guess is Scotia Square initially cut off the road. Historic property lines then dictated the construction of the Casino complex resulting in the street turning into a pedestrian path and at some point the apartment complex on Brunswick was allowed to remove the remaining section.

Ideally I would say reinstall the street as a pedestrian mall. However this would be overly expensive and slightly pointless. Basically I would be happy with the Granville addtion being demolished allowing for the street to be renamed from Barrington to the boardwalk (Cows). Logically it would have to be non-vehicular and the pedway would have to be relocated but it is possible to do and would break up the super-blocks to an extent.

If International Place is ever built the pedway from Purdys Wharf should remain across the expressway section and the pedway would continue in the building along the south-side. West of Granville it would cross southbound into Delta Barrington (Granville Mall) where it would turn westbound and cross into Scotia Square Mall just south of its current location.

[reddog794]

I've thought of the exact same question, and what I could come up with is the return of the city blocks that were removed, and something similar to Montreals underground city. Only the area encompassing the former scotia square lands, with mixed, stepped back high rises. connected underground with a multi block foundation/underground. The area is nothing but a spit in the face of human, urban design. That is if you were designing for maybe vampires, or the high arctic.

[worldlyhaligonian]

With all the negativity on the forum lately, I am really enjoying this thread. It has shown the creativity of many of our members and has been a great conversation.

Oddly enough, the Scotia Square lands have alot of promise if reworked... I think if there was a pedestrian mall of some sort that bars or nightclubs could work in that space.

[Jonovision]

I was thinking the pedestrian streets running through the hypothetical new Scotia Square would be something along the lines of what is being built in Salt Lake City in the City Creek development.

http://www.downtownrising.com/city_creek/

[-Harlington-]

one thing i do like that incorporates scotia square is the pedway system which i think the city needs more of.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Jonovision

I was thinking the pedestrian streets running through the hypothetical new Scotia Square would be something along the lines of what is being built in Salt Lake City in the City Creek development.

http://www.downtownrising.com/city_creek/

Yes, it would be great if Scotia Square could be re-developed with streets that look like that development in Salt Lake City. A street in Halifax that could be used as a model would be the Granville pedestrian street. I think Scotia Square has a lot of potential to last for many more generations if redeveloped in a creative manner by some good architects.