The future of Hamilton's public transit

[markbarbera]

Sometimes, unusual circumstances can unexpectedly contribute to the interruption of regular service...


source: CBC Hamilton

[Jon Dalton]

Originally Posted by Berklon

Speaking of shitty bus service, I just spent 40 minutes in -25c temperature waiting for a bus that never came.

I have 2 buses I could catch to make my GO train connection at Hunter, and both of them didn't show up - which means I've missed the last 2 trains and subsequently a very important meeting in the office.

I am fucking pissed right now. Totally unacceptable.
I expect some sort of compensation for this bullshit.

Please send this to the mayor and councillors. Some of them don't think the HSR affects important people who have jobs and meetings.

[thistleclub]

Hamilton’s area rating for transit should be eliminated, says Merulla
(Flamborough Review, Kevin Werner, Mar 4 2015)

Hamilton councillor Sam Merulla is accusing the suburbs of “screwing over” the urban areas of the city when it comes to paying for transit.

He argues that area rating for transit should be eliminated, believing that all residents of the city benefit from a strong and reliable system.

“We are asking for some respect and fairness,” said Merulla.

The Ward 4 councillor was expected to introduce a motion at the Feb. 25 council meeting requesting a study be done by staff to gauge the impacts of eliminate area rating on transit. At the end of a long explanation on the evils of area-rating transit, Merulla announced he was withdrawing his motion from the agenda, but he said he would re-introduce it at the March 11 council meeting.

Merulla says downtown residents are overburdened from paying the cost of transit, while in some areas of the city, such as Flamborough and Glanbrook, residents don’t pay any costs for transit service.

However, those residents are not required to contribute under the area rating system.

“The fact is, we are the only city in the entire province that has this system,” said Merulla, as he listened to cries of “wrong, wrong” from some suburban politicians, including Glanbrook councillor Brenda Johnson.

“It’s truly a sad state of affairs. It’s a matter of equality.”

Area rating has become an emotional issue after councillors – a sizable number of them from suburban areas – voted against keeping the transit-only lane along King Street. Merulla argued politicians who have “no vested interest” in the service shouldn’t have voted on the issue.


Read it in full here.

[HillStreetBlues]

In all honesty, if we wanted the city to be more efficient, we’d move towards more area rating, not less. The result would be significant (not a few tens of dollars a year, but more like many hundreds) rate increases in the suburbs, however. The ambulance example is a good one, but there is a long list of public services that cost substantially more in the suburbs and for which suburbanites are effectively receiving cross-subsidies from city-dwellers: roads, waste management, hydro, water, ambulance, police, library…in fact, most services the municipality provides become more efficient at higher densities.

Currently, someone who lives in a condo assessed at $300,000 in an urban area of the city and walks or bicycles to work and most other places pays more tax than someone who owns a home in Binbrook assessed at the same amount and drives fifty kilometres to work round trip- and everywhere else- on city streets.

No consideration is given to the fact that the latter dwelling requires much more upkeep for waste and water and other infrastructure by virtue of the sprawling nature of its development. The only tweak that is made to the taxation is to make sure that the latter example does not have to pay for transit that his community would not be dense enough to support, even though he drives through neighbourhoods where traffic would be much heavier were transit not alleviating some of it.

[ScreamingViking]

I see your point, but if full area rating of all services was enacted, may as well de-amalgamate the city at the same time (and I'm not sure that's a bad idea, though the cost of doing it would be a huge impediment at this point)

With respect to transit, I think area rating has held back system improvements. We've seen some suburban services cut and some proposed suburban improvements watered down because the local costs were apparently too much to bear... bring them all under the urban taxation umbrella and share the costs (as with other services) and just perhaps the entire transit system will benefit by being more able to improve transit in areas that lack it, which may increase support for the improvements in areas that have service but need more.

[markbarbera]

The combination of any kind of area rating exclusions along with an over-reliance on revenue generated from a residential property tax system based on the highly flawed MPAC assessment process all contribute to the city's imminent fiscal crisis.

[SteelTown]

Council just approved asking the province $300 million on top of the full B-Line LRT funding. Now we await for the results.

[HillStreetBlues]

Originally Posted by SteelTown

Council just approved asking the province $300 million on top of the full B-Line LRT funding. Now we await for the results.

Is the municipality doing both, or just the $300 million now, and the B-Line LRT sometime in the future?

Does anyone have the results of the vote, by the way? I'd be curious to see which lower city councillors did or did not vote for this. This is a terrible plan, and asking the province and the riders to fund it while not asking for any increased funding from municipal taxes is indicative of the importance this regime places on transit.

[matt602]

Originally Posted by HillStreetBlues

Is the municipality doing both, or just the $300 million now, and the B-Line LRT sometime in the future?

They're "officially" doing both still but this is a good way to kill LRT silently since it's highly likely that our LRT is going to now going to be pushed to a second round (ie. might never happen) of funding. Metrolinx isn't gonna do both things when they're as strapped for cash as they are.

[drpgq]

Originally Posted by matt602

They're "officially" doing both still but this is a good way to kill LRT silently since it's highly likely that our LRT is going to now going to be pushed to a second round (ie. might never happen) of funding. Metrolinx isn't gonna do both things when they're as strapped for cash as they are.

Yeah considering the Liberals first promised LRT in 2007 pushing this to a second round would suck. And we end up with a really expensive bus barn. Honestly I don't know what the city is doing.

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by matt602

They're "officially" doing both still but this is a good way to kill LRT silently since it's highly likely that our LRT is going to now going to be pushed to a second round (ie. might never happen) of funding. Metrolinx isn't gonna do both things when they're as strapped for cash as they are.

It's all going to hinge on what's left over in the current 10-year funding pot after the GO RER plan is finalized.

The province could also decide to pump more money into local transit upgrades outside of the committed funding, to better feed RER and municipal rapid transit. Lots of cities could use help with that, and it's important to provide those connections to higher-order transit to maximize its potential.

[HillStreetBlues]

Well, I guess we just wait, then. At least we know for sure now that fares are going up.

A lot of connections with higher-order transit would be cheap to implement, but nonetheless are likely not to happen here in Hamilton. Our bus routings are in some places designed with almost no regard to our express buses and Go lines.

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by HillStreetBlues

A lot of connections with higher-order transit would be cheap to implement, but nonetheless are likely not to happen here in Hamilton. Our bus routings are in some places designed with almost no regard to our express buses and Go lines.

If the BLAST network can begin (finally!) with express buses, the next logical step is to start rationalizing the other routes to make the best use of the main transit arteries and improve the overall service and efficiency of the network.

Given Dixon's charge toward changing the HSR's status quo, he should have already begun thinking about how to better use the broader network, regardless of what happens with LRT plans.

Like the one-way debate I think it too will face some rough rides. There are established routes that don't make a lot of sense on paper, but I bet there are people (and councilors) who will argue they need to stay the same.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by ScreamingViking

If the BLAST network can begin (finally!) with express buses, the next logical step is to start rationalizing the other routes to make the best use of the main transit arteries and improve the overall service and efficiency of the network.

Given Dixon's charge toward changing the HSR's status quo, he should have already begun thinking about how to better use the broader network, regardless of what happens with LRT plans.

Like the one-way debate I think it too will face some rough rides. There are established routes that don't make a lot of sense on paper, but I bet there are people (and councilors) who will argue they need to stay the same.

It would be easier to ask to upgrade an express route or BRT to LRT than it is to ask for the LRT. At least with the BRT coming first, they can show proof of the ridership.

[Dr Awesomesauce]

^The problem is that BRT is actually quite expensive and actually MORE costly than LRT to operate. It just isn't realistic to invest hundreds of millions of dollars in BRT and then just upgrade to LRT. For me, it's LRT or nothing because BRT just isn't worth it. In terms of an investment, BRT is a bust because it's pricy to implement and operate and doesn't attract passengers and investment in the way LRT typically does.

[Beedok]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

It would be easier to ask to upgrade an express route or BRT to LRT than it is to ask for the LRT. At least with the BRT coming first, they can show proof of the ridership.

Ottawa built a super separated BRT designed specifically for easy upgrade to LRT, and it finding it basically as expensive as building from scratch to upgrade today and spent decades at the half-way point.

[Mikey563]

in Edmonton, building 3.3 KM new LRT line from churchill station to NAIT cost just $ 665 million dollars

The total cost for the project was $665 million.

The Province of Alberta funded $437 million
The Government of Canada funded $100 million
The City of Edmonton funded $128 million

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgW8cTaFNVY

i wonder why city of Hamilton were asking a lot more than that.

[Beedok]

Originally Posted by Mikey563

in Edmonton, building 3.3 KM new LRT line from churchill station to NAIT cost just $ 665 million dollars

The total cost for the project was $665 million.

The Province of Alberta funded $437 million
The Government of Canada funded $100 million
The City of Edmonton funded $128 million

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgW8cTaFNVY

i wonder why city of Hamilton were asking a lot more than that.

Considering the B-line is meant to be 13km long I'm more confused at why Edmonton's, at ~1/4 the length is 3/4 of the price.

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by Beedok

Considering the B-line is meant to be 13km long I'm more confused at why Edmonton's, at ~1/4 the length is 3/4 of the price.

The video notes 700m of Edmonton's extension is tunneled. The stations are likely a lot more elaborate than what would be built in Hamilton too (even accounting for the fact there are many fewer on this extension it's probably a significant expense)

[Beedok]

Originally Posted by ScreamingViking

The video notes 700m of Edmonton's extension is tunneled. The stations are likely a lot more elaborate than what would be built in Hamilton too.

Even so, with ~4 times the length it's no surprise Hamilton's will cost more. Add in that it's a new line needing new vehicles too.