HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #1  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2012, 9:38 PM
bicycles bicycles is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 220
Federal Government Scandal Discussion

Breaking news, F-35's didn't meet statement of requirements, former DND procurement chief Alan Williams said process was "hijacked and rigged" to exclude all competition.

from: Andrew Coyne (twitter.com/@acoyne)
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2012, 9:40 PM
bicycles bicycles is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 220
Government was refusing to release SOR before, Evan Solomon from CBC says more information will become available. this is over $30 billion of taxpayer's money, this is HUGE.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2012, 9:50 PM
bicycles bicycles is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 220
how can Canadians continue not to act after this, the robo-call scandal, the contempt of Parliament, and they're bullying of laws through the house? this is the most corrupt government we have ever been faced with, and nothing is happening.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2012, 9:51 PM
Xelebes's Avatar
Xelebes Xelebes is online now
Sawmill Billowtoker
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Rockin' in Edmonton
Posts: 13,846
Links, please.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2012, 9:53 PM
bicycles bicycles is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelebes View Post
Links, please.
to what? I provided a link to Coyne's twitter who mentions Evan Solomon from CBC as his source. what more do you need? Conservative party membership figures?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2012, 10:07 PM
MrOilers MrOilers is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 2,498
Quote:
Originally Posted by bicycles View Post
the robo-call scandal, the contempt of Parliament, and they're bullying of laws through the house?
This is where Harper's opponents are making a huge mistake - they are trying to find something damning about Harper and the Conservatives that would equal the Adscam scandal that damaged the Liberals, but this approach is failing.

So far Harper has stuck to his campaign promises that people care about, such as: abolishing the gun registry, ending the Canadian Wheat Board monopoly in the Western provinces, and adding Parliamentary seats to regions in Canada where increased populations warrant it.

None of these gripes or mini-scandals are big enough for most people to care to change their votes from Conservative to another party.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #7  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2012, 10:12 PM
flar's Avatar
flar flar is offline
..........
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Southwestern Ontario
Posts: 15,185
^^These are very serious scandals. I would say the opposition is simply not as effective at playing dirty politics as the Conservatives. They're experts when it comes to playing in the dirt. They are especially good at evading responsibility.
__________________
RECENT PHOTOS:
TORONTOSAN FRANCISCO ROCHESTER, NYHAMILTONGODERICH, ON WHEATLEY, ONCOBOURG, ONLAS VEGASLOS ANGELES
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #8  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2012, 10:14 PM
bicycles bicycles is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
This is where Harper's opponents are making a huge mistake - they are trying to find something damning about Harper and the Conservatives that would equal the Adscam scandal that damaged the Liberals, but this approach is failing.

So far Harper has stuck to his campaign promises that people care about, such as: abolishing the gun registry, ending the Canadian Wheat Board monopoly in the Western provinces, and adding Parliamentary seats to regions in Canada where increased populations warrant it.

None of these gripes or mini-scandals are big enough for most people to care to change their votes from Conservative to another party.
$30 billion is a mini-scandal? wasn't the adscam something like $15 million?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #9  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2012, 10:16 PM
vid's Avatar
vid vid is offline
I am a typical
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Thunder Bay
Posts: 41,172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelebes View Post
Links, please.
The story just broke. As of 6:16pm it is still black text on CBC.ca's breaking news ticker.

This is definitely controversial though. Hopefully the opposition can do its job properly and hold the government to account for its actions but I am not hopeful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bicycles View Post
$30 billion is a mini-scandal? wasn't the adscam something like $15 million?
$3.75 million was involved. The programme probably cost more over the long run but that was the value of money that was "corrupted". It cost $14 million to investigate. It ran for 8 years before Sheila Fraser, in her position as auditor general, found inconsistencies. Paul Martin ordered an inquiry within 24 hours of the report being released.

Not that I am biased toward the Liberals, corruption is always a serious issue and those involved should be punished for it, but Adscam was a big deal 8 years ago, and this is a big deal now. In terms of the funds involved, the jet contract is 8,000 times larger.

We have to keep in mind that so far, this isn't a report, it's a statement by someone involved.

Last edited by vid; Mar 26, 2012 at 10:28 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #10  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2012, 10:41 PM
eemy's Avatar
eemy eemy is offline
Closed account
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 4,456
Quote:
Secret document on F-35s shows process not followed

The federal government didn't follow normal procurement procedures to buy the F-35 fighter jets and the plane fails to meet at least one critical feature the government stipulated must be met, documents viewed by CBC News suggest.
Here is an actual report from CBC.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #11  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2012, 10:48 PM
shreddog shreddog is online now
Beer me Captain
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Taking a Pis fer all of ya
Posts: 5,174
Quote:
Originally Posted by vid View Post
The story just broke. As of 6:16pm it is still black text on CBC.ca's breaking news ticker.
Actually, it “broke” with NP 6 days ago … LINK.

The truth is that DND, not the Cons, hijacked the procurrement process and started doing so for the F-35s under the LIBERAL watch. Remember, as much as some would like to tar the Cons with the F-35 brush, to date the only money spent regarding the F-35 – a grand total of $160,000,000 USD – was done so by the Liberals. The Cons have not paid a single dime to the yanks whereas the liberals already have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vid View Post
Not that I am biased toward the Liberals, corruption is always a serious issue and those involved should be punished for it, but Adscam was a big deal 8 years ago, and this is a big deal now. In terms of the funds involved, the jet contract is 8,000 times larger.
Except that there is a difference between corruption and incompetance. In the case of the Liberals, Adscam was corruption in the form of embezlement. To date the Cons are showing signd of incompetance, but not true corruption.
__________________
Leaving a Pis fer all of ya!

Do something about your future.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #12  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2012, 10:48 PM
Bassic Lab Bassic Lab is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Calgary
Posts: 1,934
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
This is where Harper's opponents are making a huge mistake - they are trying to find something damning about Harper and the Conservatives that would equal the Adscam scandal that damaged the Liberals, but this approach is failing.

So far Harper has stuck to his campaign promises that people care about, such as: abolishing the gun registry, ending the Canadian Wheat Board monopoly in the Western provinces, and adding Parliamentary seats to regions in Canada where increased populations warrant it.

None of these gripes or mini-scandals are big enough for most people to care to change their votes from Conservative to another party.
Your list of campaign promises that people care about is pretty nonsensical. Those were never major issues, they had little to no affect on the last election, and the few people who were deeply committed are strong partisans who's votes were already locked in. I mean really, the CWB? Those affected are at best split on the decision; those unaffected, the majority of Canadians, couldn't care less; and, the seats in question are generally Conservative fortresses no matter what.

The Conservatives were essentially elected because voters trusted their handling of the economy and public spending. Vague, and illogical, unease about crime helped but it wasn't the major determinant. This scandal will likely have little affect on the way that people think the Conservatives are the best handlers of the economy but it could seriously continue to degrade voter's impression of their trustworthiness to manage public spending in a transparent, fair, and effective manner.

The issue of ethics, an area where the Conservatives once had the public trust but have managed to really piss it away over the last few years, was not hugely important in the last election but it could become so in the future. It was what gave the Conservative's their minority governments after all. Peter MacKay straight up lied to Canadians about the F-35 being the only plane that meets the DoD's requirements. Worse, this is beginning to fit into a continuing narrative. Voters are increasingly losing respect for the government on this file. In my opinion, there is still a strong feeling that the Tories are the best option despite ethical problems but there is a breaking point. If these ethics scandals continue for the next three years (or more guilt is attributed to them, the Robocall issue seems to get worse all the time), then the Conservatives will have a very difficult time convincing enough Canadians that they deserve to govern.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #13  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2012, 10:52 PM
shreddog shreddog is online now
Beer me Captain
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Taking a Pis fer all of ya
Posts: 5,174
As an example of DND hijacking the process ... here's a quote about the Chinooks from the same PS
Quote:
The F-35 experience does suggest a process that is out of control. And we know that it is not an isolated incident. Mr. Williams said that former Chief of the Defence Staff, General Rick Hillier, once indicated to him that he wanted Chinook heavy lift helicopters. “I said to him, ‘don’t tell me that you want Chinooks, tell me your requirements’. Almost the day I left, they ordered Chinooks,” he said. These are the same Chinooks that are at least three years behind schedule and 100% over budget — the aircraft where former auditor-general Sheila Fraser said the deliberate understatement of risk by DND was “totally unacceptable.”
Also, since the F-35 issue is only a potential case of corruption ... how about we hang someone about an actual instance of DND hijacking the process and the Gov't tagging along ... the MH purchase, which over their lifetime will run well north of $15B - so possibly more expensive per platform than the F-35's. Anyone willing to lead the charge against the Libbies for that one??
__________________
Leaving a Pis fer all of ya!

Do something about your future.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #14  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2012, 10:53 PM
Doug's Avatar
Doug Doug is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 10,047
This is not a scandal. The F-35 program has not delivered on its schedule or cost and the Canadian government can choose to walk. Keep in mind that many governments looking to procure fighter jets have been looking at the F-35:
http://blogs.ottawacitizen.com/2012/...-to-cut-costs/

http://www2.canada.com/story.html?id=6243277
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #15  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2012, 10:55 PM
shreddog shreddog is online now
Beer me Captain
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Taking a Pis fer all of ya
Posts: 5,174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassic Lab View Post
... the Robocall issue seems to get worse all the time...
I've been following this and not sure what has changed in the past week or so ... can you shed any light on this?

IMHO, the Robocall incident was so poorly put together that even if it is directly tied to a Conbot, it will only be one or two minions at the lower level. Harper will then take great affront to it and pass a law (with a couple loop holes) to ban robocalling the next election that the Cons will likely come ahead out it.
__________________
Leaving a Pis fer all of ya!

Do something about your future.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #16  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2012, 10:59 PM
Razor Razor is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 2,944
My, how quickly we forget about Chretien and his gang of hench Men and Boondoggles.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #17  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2012, 11:00 PM
Bassic Lab Bassic Lab is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Calgary
Posts: 1,934
Quote:
Originally Posted by shreddog View Post
Actually, it “broke” with NP 6 days ago … LINK.

The truth is that DND, not the Cons, hijacked the procurrement process and started doing so for the F-35s under the LIBERAL watch. Remember, as much as some would like to tar the Cons with the F-35 brush, to date the only money spent regarding the F-35 – a grand total of $160,000,000 USD – was done so by the Liberals. The Cons have not paid a single dime to the yanks whereas the liberals already have.

Except that there is a difference between corruption and incompetance. In the case of the Liberals, Adscam was corruption in the form of embezlement. To date the Cons are showing signd of incompetance, but not true corruption.
The Liberal spending really had nothing to do with procurement. It was industrial policy to allow Canadian companies to bid on various components. Now there is a legitimate debate to be had on whether the government should pursue an industrial policy of that kind but doing so did not force the current government to procure F-35s. At most it made the decision to procure more likely but it certainly didn't force the Conservative's to sole source the F-35 as opposed to opening up a competitive bid. Furthermore, it certainly didn't force Minister MacKay to lie by saying that the sole source was necessary because the F-35 was the only jet to meet requirements when the F-35 itself does not meet the requirements.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #18  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2012, 11:11 PM
shreddog shreddog is online now
Beer me Captain
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Taking a Pis fer all of ya
Posts: 5,174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassic Lab View Post
The Liberal spending really had nothing to do with procurement. It was industrial policy to allow Canadian companies to bid on various components. Now there is a legitimate debate to be had on whether the government should pursue an industrial policy of that kind but doing so did not force the current government to procure F-35s. At most it made the decision to procure more likely but it certainly didn't force the Conservative's to sole source the F-35 as opposed to opening up a competitive bid. Furthermore, it certainly didn't force Minister MacKay to lie by saying that the sole source was necessary because the F-35 was the only jet to meet requirements when the F-35 itself does not meet the requirements.
The Liberal spending had everything to do with procurrement - if you weren't a Tier 3 commited player, you couldn't buy with gaurantees of IRBs. The Libbies paid the money as they intended to buy - why would they otherwise commit the money. While the Cons weren't forced to sole source, it made the most sense as an open bid would cost well north of $150M and would provide the same results (no other gen 5 plane was ever really considered).

As for the "lies" ... why did the Liberals give the MH to Sik and say it met the mandatory SORs when it didn't? Why did the Conbots sole source the HCM as part of FELEX to L-M when it didn't meet the mandatory SORs? In all cases the gov't asks for things industry can't do - then give the program to someone who is close enough, change the SOR's to relax mandatories and say all is good. This is standard operating procedures in the way the GoC does business based on the rules that TB and PWGSC put in place.

Now all that said, I'm not convinced that the F-35's are the right plane or not and do believe we should look at the options. The issue here is that this is not a case of the Conbots being corrupt - it's the case of Federal procurrement rules basically forcing the hands of governments of ALL STRIPES to act this way. If the Libbies were in power the same thing would be playing out since the big industry lobbing for this is the Ont/Que based aerotech players who can ber very persusive.
__________________
Leaving a Pis fer all of ya!

Do something about your future.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #19  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2012, 11:12 PM
kwoldtimer kwoldtimer is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: La vraie capitale
Posts: 23,613
Quote:
Originally Posted by shreddog View Post
As an example of DND hijacking the process ... here's a quote about the Chinooks from the same PS

Also, since the F-35 issue is only a potential case of corruption ... how about we hang someone about an actual instance of DND hijacking the process and the Gov't tagging along ... the MH purchase, which over their lifetime will run well north of $15B - so possibly more expensive per platform than the F-35's. Anyone willing to lead the charge against the Libbies for that one??
Appalling if true but irrelevent, at the political level. Ministers are accountable for their departments and the PM for his Ministers, or at least that's the way it used to be.

P.S. Don't like the name of this thread - sounds like some crummy imitation of tea party rubbish.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #20  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2012, 11:53 PM
Symz's Avatar
Symz Symz is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Windsor, On.
Posts: 1,864
Quote:
Originally Posted by bicycles View Post
how can Canadians continue not to act after this?
Well, where I live a majority of people are just struggling to find employment, so that's their first concern.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada
Forum Jump



Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 7:12 AM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.