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  #121  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2008, 4:51 PM
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Let's keep this thread back on topic. . . no more bitching about Miami. . . take it offline please. . .
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  #122  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2008, 4:52 PM
mhays mhays is offline
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For me, a tower is more than a skyline enhancer. It's a method of bringing a lot of additional people into a neighborhood, and making an area feel more urban. Miami's towers will have this effect only to the extent that they're occupied and lived in. (Well, some will. Others are set back behind driveways and will never be very urban, though they generally look great from a distance.)

(Oops, wrote that right before directive from moderator!)
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  #123  
Old Posted Jan 5, 2008, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom In Chicago View Post
The original definition that Emporis created for "high-rise" was based upon a legacy list that was put together by one of our senior editors from Minneapolis. . . for one reason or another he counted buildings as short as 12 floors and voila! That became the defacto definition. . .
I believe the cut-off point is 12 floors, or 35 meters. There are more than a few 8-story buildings in Emporis.com's "high-rise" database.
EDIT: Emporis.com's "12-floor rule" seems to apply only to Chicago. Examples:

- I counted fifty-six 7-11 story "high-rise" buildings in Washington, D.C.

- New York's high-rise database is a mess if you believe Emporis.com uses the 12-floor rule:

http://www.emporis.com/en/wm/ci/bu/s...&ht=2&sro=5481
http://www.emporis.com/en/wm/ci/bu/s...&ht=2&sro=5501
http://www.emporis.com/en/wm/ci/bu/s...&ht=2&sro=5521
http://www.emporis.com/en/wm/ci/bu/s...&ht=2&sro=5541
http://www.emporis.com/en/wm/ci/bu/s...&ht=2&sro=5561
http://www.emporis.com/en/wm/ci/bu/s...&ht=2&sro=5581

http://www.emporis.com/en/wm/ci/bu/s...&ht=2&sro=2281
http://www.emporis.com/en/wm/ci/bu/s...&ht=2&sro=2301


Etc.
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  #124  
Old Posted Jan 5, 2008, 9:18 PM
NewAtlantisMiami NewAtlantisMiami is offline
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Thumbs up What are the criteria for a skyscraper?

I use the World Almanac criteria, which has been my reference for over 20 years before computers. For New York and Chicago, the 2008 World Almanac currently only lists buildings over 500 feet tall that are either already built or are currently under construction. For Dallas, Houston, Las Vegas, Los Angeles, Miami, San Francisco, and Toronto, it will now only list buildings that are over 450 feet tall. For all other North American cities, the list starts at 400 feet tall. This new criterion hurt Miami the most because we have the most buildings in the 400 feet tall and up range that are either already built or under construction outside of New York and Chicago, but Miami still comes in third in the U.S. with buildings in the 450 tall range and up. The 2006 Almanac of Architecture and Design even says Miami now has the 3rd largest skyline with more skyscrapers on the way. There is no bitching here. Those are simply the facts.
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  #125  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2008, 2:40 AM
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The World Almanac data comes from Emporis. . . The fact that they list buildings for certain cities above 450 and 500 for New York and Chicago has to do with how many pages they're willing to use in that particular years editions. . .
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  #126  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2008, 4:08 AM
NewAtlantisMiami NewAtlantisMiami is offline
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Originally Posted by Tom In Chicago View Post
The World Almanac data comes from Emporis. . . The fact that they list buildings for certain cities above 450 and 500 for New York and Chicago has to do with how many pages they're willing to use in that particular years editions. . .
Yes, I know that, but thanks anyway. Emporis is one of their sources, but not their only source.
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  #127  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2008, 5:03 AM
NewAtlantisMiami NewAtlantisMiami is offline
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Thumbs up The New York & Chicago Standard

Quite frankly, I prefer the New York and Chicago standard for a high-rise building, and that would be a building over 500 feet tall. That is when I get the soaring effect looking up at it. I have little interest in anything here in Miami under construction that is not going to be over 500 feet tall. Using that criterion, I think Houston is still 3rd behind New York and Chicago, but Miami's recent "boom" has put it in the big leagues. More 500 feet tall and up towers are on the way.
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  #128  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2008, 6:25 AM
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kick ass minneapolis!
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  #129  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2008, 9:52 AM
MAH4546 MAH4546 is offline
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Originally Posted by mhays View Post
For me, a tower is more than a skyline enhancer. It's a method of bringing a lot of additional people into a neighborhood, and making an area feel more urban. Miami's towers will have this effect only to the extent that they're occupied and lived in. (Well, some will. Others are set back behind driveways and will never be very urban, though they generally look great from a distance.)
Older towers are set-back. New towers are not. It is against building codes to set-back towers in downtown in the same fashion many of the condos built in the 1980s and mid-1990s were. The facades have to be integrated into the streets Hence, new towers have to have the driveways located on the sides or in the rear.
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  #130  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2008, 4:25 PM
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NewAtlantisMiami - Emporis is one of their sources, but not their only source.

The numbers you see reflected in the World Almanac should be the Emporis numbers. . . despite the fact that they also include the CTBUH as an additional source. . .
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  #131  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2008, 8:10 PM
NewAtlantisMiami NewAtlantisMiami is offline
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Originally Posted by Tom In Chicago View Post
NewAtlantisMiami - Emporis is one of their sources, but not their only source.

The numbers you see reflected in the World Almanac should be the Emporis numbers. . . despite the fact that they also include the CTBUH as an additional source. . .
I can only speak for the city in which I live where I can do my own verifications, but I know for a fact that the Emporis list and the World Almanac list are not the same. For 2007, if the World Alamanac had used the Emporis list for Miami, it would have been a lot more accurate. God only knows who they consulted for that 2007 Miami list. Their 2008 list for Miami is a lot more accurate, but it still does not strictly follow the Emporis list. There are buildings under construction that are simply not listed. Emporis has a difficult time keeping up with the pace of development here in Miami these days.
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  #132  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2008, 8:31 PM
mhays mhays is offline
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Good to hear, MAH4546.

I used to look forward to every December when the World Almanac came out. But it was never very accurate.

Look at an early-1990s edition. Does it show Seattle having three towers in the 720-740' range? No? They didn't show up until a few years after they were completed.

Furthermore, they've had duplicate listing before. I have a 1998 version in front of me...let's see...they list Gateway Tower twice at 722'. Their height for Smith Tower is way off. I have no idea what Security Pacific Bank Tower is. 520 Pike is nowhere near that tall. 1600 Bell Plaza and Qwest are duplicates. They omitted the taller tower at the Westin, while listing the shorter tower twice under two heights.

In other words, this is the shittiest list imaginable. The World Almanac was embarrasingly bad that year.

The "metro area population" list once omitted Washington DC.
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  #133  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2008, 9:36 PM
NewAtlantisMiami NewAtlantisMiami is offline
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Here, the World Almanac hits book stores before Thanksgiving! As inaccurate as it can be sometimes, I still look forward to it just to see what they got right this time because those lists have to stand for a whole year. Emporis can be rather inaccurate as well, but at least they don't have to wait a whole year to correct their data.

So as far as what city has the most high-rises, there has to be a substantial difference between cities to account for the inaccuracies. Also according to the 2006 Almanac of Design and Architecture, Miami had more high-rise construction going on at one time than any other city in the world except Dubai. It has slowed just as the market has cooled, but it has not stopped just as Brickell said it has not. Have a look at the Miami page of Emporis to get an idea of what we might see.

I came to the conclusion that Miami already had the 3rd biggest skyline in the coutry over a year ago before anybody else ever mentioned it. The list of approved projects for Miami on Emporis had gotten so long that I thought if not even half of them got out of the ground, Miami would have the 3rd biggest skyline in the country by 2010. Then, I got to thinking, "You know, the World Almanac counts buildings in U.S. cities 400 feet tall and up (except for New York and Chicago where they count nothing below 500 feet tall), and we have a lot of buildings already built or under construction that are just over 400 feet tall. I wonder." So I got out my calculator, went onto Emporis.com and added up all the heights of all the buildings either already built or under construction in all the U.S. cities that were possible contenders for 3rd: Dallas, Houston, Las Vegas, Los Angeles, and San Francisco. It was just an intellectual exercise, and it took me a whole Saturday afternoon with rechecking the numbers and other things that I had to do. I wasn't expecting the result I got. I mean I was shocked. "WHAT? WE ARE ALREADY THERE!!! Then, the 2006 Almanac of Architecture and Design confirmed what I had already shockingly concluded myself. It doesn't matter whether a skyscraper is fully occupied or not as long as it got built and it has stories. South Florida has long been a playground for the rich where they had winter homes that weren't even occupied for half the year. That is simply the nature of the beast here. The most famous skyscraper in history, the Empire State Building, was a total flop when it opened because right after construction began, we had the stock market crash of 1929 following by the Great Depression. Thus for a time, it was known as the Empty State Building. It went on to make money and become fully-occupied after World War II.

With the attention and interest brought to Miami by the recent "boom" here, I think Miami will eventually be halfway between Chicago and any other American city with tall buildings. That is how big this "boom" was. Miami wrote its own page in skyscraper history by blasting its way into 3rd out of nowhere when at the beginning of this decade, we only had 4 buildings over 500 feet tall. I don't think we will ever have as many tall buildings as Chicago though. I don't think any American city could ever approach New York and Chicago in the regard. I believe they are just that far ahead. We can't even have buildings here in Miami much more than 1,000 feet tall because MIA is in the middle of the city and planes simply would not be able to land safely, but check back in 3 years.
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=501324
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=564976
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...477774&page=32

Last edited by NewAtlantisMiami; Jan 8, 2008 at 2:27 AM.
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  #134  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2008, 7:29 PM
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http://homepages.ipact.nl/~egram/skylines.html
based on what NewAtlantisMiami mentioned. above is the link
to the world's best skylines. based on heights of 295 ft. and above.
as you can see Miami ranks 3rd in the US and 18th in the world..
this is from 2006.. the skyline is very long and hugs the coastline well...which makes it a very long skyline..
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