Who is "fit" to immigrate to Canada?

[someone123]

If the Syrian refugees were average you'd expect them to commit about 1 known murder per year, based on the 40,000 number and Canada's national murder rate.

If they only committed 1 murder every 2 years this would mean that we managed to pick people half as likely to murder as the average Canadian. That is quite good. But we'd still have people instead unrealistically expecting a murder rate of 0.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

If the Syrian refugees were average you'd expect them to commit about 1 known murder per year, based on the 40,000 number and Canada's national murder rate.

If they only committed 1 murder every 2 years this would mean that we managed to pick people half as likely to murder as the average Canadian. That is quite good. But we'd still have people instead unrealistically expecting a murder rate of 0.

Yeah, I don't see anything even close to resembling a crime wave in Canada that could be blamed on refugees from Syria.

[vid]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yeah, I don't see anything even close to resembling a crime wave in Canada that could be blamed on refugees from Syria.

The crime is what they're doing to our waist lines with all that delicious falafel, tabbouleh and makdous.

[Dr Awesomesauce]

So this is acceptable, then? Perhaps people think it doesn't need to be said, but it does. Silence is a killer - ask Nero. It's not okay just because it may or may not fit within an acceptable range of risk for the typical male or whatever the argument is.

When (or if more like) the details of this murder come out, I would hope people might actually discuss the issue honestly. I mean, if you think this 13 year old girl wasn't raped, you're laughing. I guarantee it. Raped and left for dead. These sorts of incidents have been happening all over Europe in recent years and few, if any, media outlets will even report it.

Here's a question: Does this guy even understand that it's not okay to do that? And I mean that in all seriousness. Most Canadians have no clue about the culture where many of these men come from: their attitudes to women; their attitudes, in particular, to non-Muslim women; their attitudes to homosexuality; their attitudes to freedom. Where sex is concerned, there's a grey area in the Quran that 'allows' (by omission) Muslim men to misbehave terribly with non-Muslim women. See the grooming gangs of the UK, for one epic, catastrophic example of this in action. Fact: Many of the men we've allowed into our country have no idea what's acceptable in our culture, or they do know and simply don't care.

And here's another thing: I know this is a problem because most media outlets won't cover these issues honestly. Many will gloss over his identity as a Syrian refugee, as if that doesn't matter. They'll often refer to them as 'Asians' as they've been doing for years in Europe whenever a murder or rape takes place or a grenade gets tossed into a restaurant.

If the media can't discuss these issues honestly, if they insist on not reporting the facts accurately, it's going to make people angry. We don't want people getting angry about immigrants. We. Don't. Want. That. The media/ gov't needs to trust that we're adult enough to discuss these complex issues. If they continue to talk down to us, there will be a backlash.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by someone123

If the Syrian refugees were average you'd expect them to commit about 1 known murder per year, based on the 40,000 number and Canada's national murder rate.

If they only committed 1 murder every 2 years this would mean that we managed to pick people half as likely to murder as the average Canadian. That is quite good. But we'd still have people instead unrealistically expecting a murder rate of 0.

I'm statistically safer among the Syrian refugees than where I live. (Timmins, ON population 42,000)

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Dr Awesomesauce

So this is acceptable, then? Perhaps people think it doesn't need to be said, but it does. Silence is a killer - ask Nero. It's not okay just because it may or may not fit within an acceptable range of risk for the typical male or whatever the argument is.

When (or if more like) the details of this murder come out, I would hope people might actually discuss the issue honestly. I mean, if you think this 13 year old girl wasn't raped, you're laughing. I guarantee it. Raped and left for dead. These sorts of incidents have been happening all over Europe in recent years and few, if any, media outlets will even report it.

Here's a question: Does this guy even understand that it's not okay to do that? And I mean that in all seriousness. Most Canadians have no clue about the culture where many of these men come from: their attitudes to women; their attitudes, in particular, to non-Muslim women; their attitudes to homosexuality; their attitudes to freedom. Where sex is concerned, there's a grey area in the Quran that 'allows' (by omission) Muslim men to misbehave terribly with non-Muslim women. See the grooming gangs of the UK, for one epic, catastrophic example of this in action. Fact: Many of the men we've allowed into our country have no idea what's acceptable in our culture, or they do know and simply don't care.

And here's another thing: I know this is a problem because most media outlets won't cover these issues honestly. Many will gloss over his identity as a Syrian refugee, as if that doesn't matter. They'll often refer to them as 'Asians' as they've been doing for years in Europe whenever a murder or rape takes place or a grenade gets tossed into a restaurant.

If the media can't discuss these issues honestly, if they insist on not reporting the facts accurately, it's going to make people angry. We don't want people getting angry about immigrants. We. Don't. Want. That. The media/ gov't needs to trust that we're adult enough to discuss these complex issues. If they continue to talk down to us, there will be a backlash.

You cannot extrapolate to an entire community based on the criminal acts of one individual, nor is it helpful to speculate in the absence of facts. For all we know at this point, the accused may have developed his proclivities in Canada, since there is no information yet that he arrived in Canada with these proclivities. There is no indication, afaik, that the alleged perpetrator is part of a criminal gang that represents a broader threat. Is a crime of this sort common in Syria? My understanding is that , pre-war, it was an extremely safe country. Are crimes like this committed by people of other faith groups born and raised in Canada? They are, unfortunately. What has happened is not acceptable (I doubt anyone, anywhere has suggested it is) but, until the full story comes out at trial, this is a horrible crime - full stop.

[Bcasey25raptor]

People that believe in human rights including women's rights, LGBT rights, voting rights, individual rights, etc.

aka, most people from developing countries shouldn't be let in and we need a values test to make sure immigrants to Canada believe in our liberal values.

[Acajack]

It's worth remembering that the hypothetical "values" of arrivals in the country do not factor into our international obligations during the multilateral handling of emergency refugee situations. A perhaps unfortunate reality.

[kool maudit]

Migration from high-fertility to low-fertility regions is the structural plan to avoid growth declines and thus political/class upheaval. The rest is PR.

Humanitarian, economic, and cultural justifications (the wars/the pensions/the tabbouleh) are deployed as circumstances permit.

One may choose to favour this policy or not, but this is how it functions.

[Klazu]

I am a legal immigrant who has gone through the whole immigration process properly and according to every letter of the law. I actively contribute to this society and am grateful for having been able to make Canada my home. I love the Canadian culture and try adapting it in my life as well as I can, as I feel it being essential when making this country your home.

I find it being a privilege and not an universal right to come and live in Canada. I am happy to be here through my own hard work and would love to make this country my permanent home, but I am concerned about the lawlessness that has taken over Canada's immigration policies in the last couple of years.

This country used to have fantastic merit-based immigration programs that very envied in many countries. The vetting was tough but fair. Today much of that seems to be be out the door and anyone can come and stay here without any consequences even when having broken the law and committed the toughest of crimes. If anything, the government has done their best to weaken our immigration laws and things such a language knowledge requirements are laughably low these days. There are also large groups of people just excluded from any kind of requirements and being provided with fast-tracked detours around what applies to all other rule-abiding immigrants.

It really saddens me to see the way things are going and I hope Canada would toughen up. We are a small population with an unique culture to be proud of and we should be very protective of it, as nobody else will be. It should be a privilege to be able to call oneself Canadian and it should not be something you can buy or get from hopping the border.

Just my 2 cents.

[Spocket]

Originally Posted by someone123

If the Syrian refugees were average you'd expect them to commit about 1 known murder per year, based on the 40,000 number and Canada's national murder rate.

If they only committed 1 murder every 2 years this would mean that we managed to pick people half as likely to murder as the average Canadian. That is quite good. But we'd still have people instead unrealistically expecting a murder rate of 0.

Sure but typically immigrants commit much less crime than citizens born in the country. It's something like %50 less violent crime.

Canada's already a fairly pacified place and this doesn't change my endorsement of immigrants in any way but Trudeau's drive to outdo his father in the SJW Olympics is hardly helping the country.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Klazu

I am a legal immigrant who has gone through the whole immigration process properly and according to every letter of the law. I actively contribute to this society and am grateful for having been able to make Canada my home. I love the Canadian culture and try adapting it in my life as well as I can, as I feel it being essential when making this country your home.

I find it being a privilege and not an universal right to come and live in Canada. I am happy to be here through my own hard work and would love to make this country my permanent home, but I am concerned about the lawlessness that has taken over Canada's immigration policies in the last couple of years.

This country used to have fantastic merit-based immigration programs that very envied in many countries. The vetting was tough but fair. Today much of that seems to be be out the door and anyone can come and stay here without any consequences even when having broken the law and committed the toughest of crimes. If anything, the government has done their best to weaken our immigration laws and things such a language knowledge requirements are laughably low these days. There are also large groups of people just excluded from any kind of requirements and being provided with fast-tracked detours around what applies to all other rule-abiding immigrants.

It really saddens me to see the way things are going and I hope Canada would toughen up. We are a small population with an unique culture to be proud of and we should be very protective of it, as nobody else will be. It should be a privilege to be able to call oneself Canadian and it should not be something you can buy or get from hopping the border.

Just my 2 cents.

I am aware of the big cases involving fraudulent immigration, but in what ways have the immigration laws been weakened?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I am aware of the big cases involving fraudulent immigration, but in what ways have the immigration laws been weakened?

Yeah, I don't get the sense our immigration laws have been weakened, but perhaps the way they are applied has?

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yeah, I don't get the sense our immigration laws have been weakened, but perhaps the way they are applied has?

The only big change I'm aware of, from the Harper years, was to turn the intial stages of the application process over to the private sector, at least in some places (perhaps everywhere, I don't know). This government has also expanded family class intake and introduced the expedited processing of high tech workers, but neither has had impacts of the sort suggested by Klazu, afaik.

In my mind, the best system would be to require an immigration officer to interview every prospective immigrant abroad, but I doubt we could afford that.

[FrankieFlowerpot]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

In my mind, the best system would be to require an immigration officer to interview every prospective immigrant abroad, but I doubt we could afford that.

What do you do with Permanent Residents then who are applying for citizenship whilst living in the country? (as is my current situation)

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by FrankieFlowerpot

What do you do with Permanent Residents then who are applying for citizenship whilst living in the country? (as is my current situation)

I guess you need to decide if you are testing people before they become citizens or before they become immigrants. I thought we were talking about the latter. Since people can and do spend the rest of their lives in Canada as PRs, I think it would be more logical to do your screening at the immigration applicant stage. I guess you'd need an equivalent domestic program for people admitted to Canada as students, refugees, or TFWs or whatever, who apply for PR status after arrival in Canada.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I am aware of the big cases involving fraudulent immigration, but in what ways have the immigration laws been weakened?

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yeah, I don't get the sense our immigration laws have been weakened, but perhaps the way they are applied has?

You two are correct, but I get what he means... the laws haven't been weakened but there's more taking advantage of them (by "investor" immigrants) than previously, especially when seen from a Vancouver POV.

I'm pretty sure that initially, the average "investor" was creating jobs, and generating revenue and taxes. Or at least, that's what the creators of the program considered.

But if all you do with the money you're bringing here is to buy a multi-million dollar house and leaving it vacant, while earning no taxable income in Canada and using our services, you're not having the impact on the economy you're supposed to have.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by lio45

You two are correct, but I get what he means... the laws haven't been weakened but there's more taking advantage of them (by "investor" immigrants) than previously, especially when seen from a Vancouver POV.

I'm pretty sure that initially, the average "investor" was creating jobs, and generating revenue and taxes. Or at least, that's what the creators of the program considered.

But if all you do with the money you're bringing here is to buy a multi-million dollar house and leaving it vacant, while earning no taxable income in Canada and using our services, you're not having the impact on the economy you're supposed to have.

I've long thought the investor programs need a major overhaul. The amount of the initial investiment needs to be much higher and it should be put into something more productive than real estate. The money should also be "locked in" until the investor receives (or at least qualifies for) Canadian citizenship.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I've long thought the investor programs need a major overhaul. The amount of the initial investiment needs to be much higher...

True, that's a no brainer. The amount should be pegged to inflation, or reevaluated every couple years (or even every 5 years).

(For a more extreme and more ridiculous example of the consequences of failure to adjust amounts through time, this measure to ensure our senators are all wealthy landowners of vast domains therefore important people with a stake in things: each "must possess land worth at least $4,000 in the province for which he or she is appointed".)

[whatnext]

Just one more piece of evidence selling citizenship is a bad idea, PEI scraps its investor immigrant program after claims of fraud (the 2nd time in 10 years!):

...The government’s own statistics suggest the critics had a point. Late last year, the PEI government reported that PNP entrepreneur immigrants had forfeited nearly $18-million in escrow deposits for failing to operate a business in the province for the required 12 months. That meant roughly two-thirds of immigrant entrepreneurs didn’t follow through on their promise.

Then there are the scandals. In two separate investigations, the Canada Border Services Agency has alleged that more than 1,000 people under the PNP have used “addresses of convenience” – in one case, a Charlottetown motel, in the other, a couple of local homes – to fake their residency in PEI...

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/busi...ation-program/

It is time for the federal government to scrap these programs completely and ban them provincially.