Future Transit System Ideas - Ottawa/Gatineau | Fantasy

[Richard Eade]

I see the point about continuing a subway under Bank, south of Billings Bridge Shopping Mall. With the continued development of retail ‘mini-malls’ and future residential increases, the strip will definitely need good transit.

That said, I am a fan of on-surface, visible, transit, with closely-spaced stops for ‘Main Streets’ (which is what I think that you are envisioning for Bank south). I would recommend buses (ideally electric) to run up and down the entire length of Bank, from Queen to Hunt Club. This would be the ‘Local’ transit and it would connect to the more regional LRT/Subway at transfer stations – one of which would be Billings Bridge Station.

The Bank Street Subway (which I have arbitrarily called Line 3), north of the Billings Bridge Transfer Station, and the surface-running LRT south of that (which would still be part of Line 3), would have, relatively, widely spaced stations. This line would be used by people who need to get to a different area of the city – not just a different block on the same street.

The southern section of Bank will, indeed, densify. The numbers might be in the low thousands, but those transit riders will still be spread out in a long line along the road. In contrast, the redevelopment of the Federal area bordered by Riverside Drive, Data Centre Road, the Airport Parkway, and Brookfield Road could house tens of thousands of people. And, those people will, likely, be arriving from places that are further away than local buses can go.

I would like to see the City and the Federal Government actually design a transit node that can service the large number of people that can fit in that area – and then to have the Feds actually develop an area that has good transit connections. Local buses can easily handle the transit requirements of the retail and residences along Bank Street.

This image shows a lot of the available land in the area and a possible routing for Line 2, Line 3 (Bank Subway – but just in trench behind CRA building and along the Bronson ramp), and the Baseline BRT (which no longer needs to use Data Centre Road).



If nothing else, I suggest that, while the City is doing work to grade-separate the rail lines, it also builds the BRT overpass, since this could provide a ‘Fare-Paid’ transfer point between the BRT and Line 2 – even if there is no future Line 3.

[Nowhere]

With all the talk about how stage 3 is expensive for the amount of riders served, here's my idea. Don't extend the LRT beyond Terry Fox and Fallowfield for now, which would cost an extra $2.14B. There's a lack of rapid transit right now between the suburbs for those who aren't heading downtown and there's no convenient link between the southeast and the southwest. The 96 doesn't even go to the Algonquin College and only runs every hour during weekdays.

This fantasy transitway would run along Innes, Sheffield and Walkley with bus lanes and priority lights, like the planned Baseline transitway. The western part would run along the power lines and the railroad and would be fully segregated, like the South Keys-Hurdman transitway. This would serve the transit neglected industrial parks in the East End and in the Colonnade area, the Queensway Carleton Hospital, the future Herongate redevelopment and the future redevelopment of the brownfields south of Walkley beside the drive test. The NCC has a bunch of undeveloped reserve lands as well in the area that might be redeveloped at some point.

We could then eliminate route 26 entirely in Pineview and merge it with the 42, which would run on Meadowbrook, while Innes would be served by my imaginary transitway. This would also be an opportunity to redevelop the strip mall on Innes with high-rises.

I used the affordable network map of the 2013 transportation master plan, which I know isn't accurate anymore.

[Tails2489]

Since this thread has "Fantasy" in the title I feel okay posting this here. What if they built a line to the new Tewin development either from Hurdman along Industrial or from Tremblay under Trainyards that then went through the Science and Tech Museum property and from there followed the old rail corridor? The rail corridor section could be developed first as a dedicated express busway that maybe brings riders to Blair or St Laurent. Then 20-30 years down the line when (if) Tewin has 50,000 residents upgrade to LRT and make a new connection to the system with stations at the Science and Tech Museum and Trainyards?

[TransitZilla]

Originally Posted by Nowhere

With all the talk about how stage 3 is expensive for the amount of riders served, here's my idea. Don't extend the LRT beyond Terry Fox and Fallowfield for now, which would cost an extra $2.14B. There's a lack of rapid transit right now between the suburbs for those who aren't heading downtown and there's no convenient link between the southeast and the southwest. The 96 doesn't even go to the Algonquin College and only runs every hour during weekdays.

This fantasy transitway would run along Innes, Sheffield and Walkley with bus lanes and priority lights, like the planned Baseline transitway. The western part would run along the power lines and the railroad and would be fully segregated, like the South Keys-Hurdman transitway. This would serve the transit neglected industrial parks in the East End and in the Colonnade area, the Queensway Carleton Hospital, the future Herongate redevelopment and the future redevelopment of the brownfields south of Walkley beside the drive test. The NCC has a bunch of undeveloped reserve lands as well in the area that might be redeveloped at some point.

We could then eliminate route 26 entirely in Pineview and merge it with the 42, which would run on Meadowbrook, while Innes would be served by my imaginary transitway. This would also be an opportunity to redevelop the strip mall on Innes with high-rises.

I used the affordable network map of the 2013 transportation master plan, which I know isn't accurate anymore.

I like it. We definitely need a better cross-town corridor along the south of the city. Baseline BRT needs to get built first. And we need to re-invest in service on route 96.

When Stage 2 opens to Algonquin, it might be possible to extend the 96 to Algonquin by truncating the 86 at Merivale. Not ideal, but it would significantly improve the 96 while being somewhat cost-neutral. Route 111 would still provide a connection to Algonquin for folks on Meadowlands east of Merivale.

[Aylmer]

I like it too. This might be one of the cases where rail might actually be cheaper and quicker to set up than a busway, at least for the Bank to Bayshore segment. The tracks are already there and only very lightly used, whereas a busway would require completely new infrastructure, including a bridge over the Rideau River. I'd envision an O-Train 'Pilot'-type infrastructure, running from Bayshore (via a new spur) and/or Kanata North to the existing Trillium Line (perhaps either Mooney's Bay/Heron or South Keys).

For the busway on Walkley, I wonder if it might serve more people and destinations if it were to run up Saint-Laurent, connecting to LRT, and then continuing further north towards Waterridge.

In any case, this kind of cross-town route will be an important part of establishing a rapid transit grid across Ottawa.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

I like it too. This might be one of the cases where rail might actually be cheaper and quicker to set up than a busway, at least for the Bank to Bayshore segment. The tracks are already there and only very lightly used, whereas a busway would require completely new infrastructure, including a bridge over the Rideau River. I'd envision an O-Train 'Pilot'-type infrastructure, running from Bayshore (via a new spur) and/or Kanata North to the existing Trillium Line (perhaps either Mooney's Bay/Heron or South Keys).

For the busway on Walkley, I wonder if it might serve more people and destinations if it were to run up Saint-Laurent, connecting to LRT, and then continuing further north towards Waterridge.

In any case, this kind of cross-town route will be an important part of establishing a rapid transit grid across Ottawa.

I do tend to agree that if we were to do this, rail would make more sense than a busway. I don't think there is space to have the busway beside the tracks so you would need to have the tracks imbedded in the busway. While theoretically possible since the line only sees about 3 trains a week each way, it really wouldn't be optimal.

The big issue is east of the junction with the Smiths Falls Sub. The Canadian Northern Ontario Railway Federal Bridge would need to be twinned, as would the overpass over Prince of Wales Dr.

Personally, I think building the Baseline BRT (including the extension to Bayshore) is a higher priority and would serve much of the same purpose (providing a bypass from Hurdman to Bayshore).

[LRTeverywhere]

Originally Posted by roger1818

The big issue is east of the junction with the Smiths Falls Sub. The Canadian Northern Ontario Railway Federal Bridge would need to be twinned, as would the overpass over Prince of Wales Dr.

It looks like both of these bridges were planned with future twinning in mind, likely still not cheap but it appears the supports are able to hold bridge sections with two tracks. I think a new section can easily be placed on the POW bridge, but the sections may have to be replaced on the river bridge since it looks like a tighter fit, but I'm not an engineer.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by LRTeverywhere

It looks like both of these bridges were planned with future twinning in mind, likely still not cheap but it appears the supports are able to hold bridge sections with two tracks. I think a new section can easily be placed on the POW bridge, but the sections may have to be replaced on the river bridge since it looks like a tighter fit, but I'm not an engineer.

I wonder if they were double tracked but have since been converted to single track.

[GeoNerd]

Originally Posted by Nowhere

With all the talk about how stage 3 is expensive for the amount of riders served, here's my idea. Don't extend the LRT beyond Terry Fox and Fallowfield for now, which would cost an extra $2.14B. There's a lack of rapid transit right now between the suburbs for those who aren't heading downtown and there's no convenient link between the southeast and the southwest. The 96 doesn't even go to the Algonquin College and only runs every hour during weekdays.

This fantasy transitway would run along Innes, Sheffield and Walkley with bus lanes and priority lights, like the planned Baseline transitway. The western part would run along the power lines and the railroad and would be fully segregated, like the South Keys-Hurdman transitway. This would serve the transit neglected industrial parks in the East End and in the Colonnade area, the Queensway Carleton Hospital, the future Herongate redevelopment and the future redevelopment of the brownfields south of Walkley beside the drive test. The NCC has a bunch of undeveloped reserve lands as well in the area that might be redeveloped at some point.

We could then eliminate route 26 entirely in Pineview and merge it with the 42, which would run on Meadowbrook, while Innes would be served by my imaginary transitway. This would also be an opportunity to redevelop the strip mall on Innes with high-rises.

Who would this serve though? People going from Oglivie to South Keys? Or Craig Henry to Herongate? It would run through pretty low density subdivisions and be VERY under-utilized. There are would need to be massive development along this line to make it viable. Plus there are existing dense neighbourhoods (Vanier) that could use mass-transit well before this. I understand this is just fantasy, but I don't think there will be much demand for ridership from the south going far-west or far-east in the future.

[Richard Eade]

Here’s a fantasy idea:

Since Kanata-North wants to be a leader in Autonomous Vehicles, how about having one (or more) companies create autonomous buses that circulate around Kanata-North.



The Green Line is the autonomous ‘circulator’. A single loop should be sufficient. The blue is the modified Baseline BRT. (I don’t understand the desire to take that BRT to Bayshore.)

In this case, I have added a transit pathway for the ‘circulator’ through the golf course. Since the golf course is being reconfigured and housing added, let’s make it more transit-oriented and add less roads. (Maybe only narrow, one-way, roads?) Pathways could be added to existing neighbourhoods on each side.

This same concept of autonomous circulators could be applied to Kanata-South:



Here, I have added two circulator loops to shuttle people to/from the LRT-Line 3 Terry Fox Station. With the circulators, there would be no need to extend the LRT past Terry Fox Station.

In Barrhaven, there would be three circulator loops, connecting to LRT-Line 1 at both Barrhaven Town Centre and Fallowfield stations. All three of the circulators also pass the recreational centre in Barrhaven west:



Around Barrhaven, I have added a BRT that connects Bowesville Station, in Riverside South, with the north-west of the city. Perhaps, this BRT makes use of the Baseline BRT, west of the Queensway-Carleton Hospital, or it might go past Bayshore on its way to Carling and then join the Baseline BRT on Carling, heading on to Kanata-North.

Those with sharp eyes will also notice a short red line meeting the Fallowfield Station. This is an extension of LRT-Line 4, which would run under the airport and over the river. This is, likely, the biggest fantasy part of this idea:



Continuing LRT-Line 2 & 4 north, these two lines are inter-lined as the Bank Street Subway:



In this case, I have truncated the existing Trillium LRT-Line 2 at Billings Bridge. This means that there will be stores for the University students and the land around Billings Bridge can be developed with residential towers for students. Billings Bridge Station would be a major transfer station and could even support a VIA station.

Comments?

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by bradnixon

I like it. We definitely need a better cross-town corridor along the south of the city. Baseline BRT needs to get built first. And we need to re-invest in service on route 96.

When Stage 2 opens to Algonquin, it might be possible to extend the 96 to Algonquin by truncating the 86 at Merivale. Not ideal, but it would significantly improve the 96 while being somewhat cost-neutral. Route 111 would still provide a connection to Algonquin for folks on Meadowlands east of Merivale.

Route 96 should go directly down Hunt Club to Woodroffe and then Baseline station. We are obsessed with skipping even short dead zones without considering speed, directness and easy connectivity. We should then have a frequent peak period shuttle loop through the Antares and Colonade business parks that connect to the main bus routes on Hunt Club (east-west) and Merivale (north-south).

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I wonder if they were double tracked but have since been converted to single track.

Looking at GeoOttawa that doesn't seem to have ever been the case.

On the flip side(?) the Beachburg Sub was grade separated with rail overpasses that are already built to handle two tracks, but as far as I know there has only ever been one track on the entire sub through the city.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by LRTeverywhere

It looks like both of these bridges were planned with future twinning in mind, likely still not cheap but it appears the supports are able to hold bridge sections with two tracks. I think a new section can easily be placed on the POW bridge, but the sections may have to be replaced on the river bridge since it looks like a tighter fit, but I'm not an engineer.

True. It would take an engineering analysis but looking at the pictures the POW drive overpass, could probably be twinned relatively easily (it is a fairly short span), but the pictured pier on the CNOR Rideau River Bridge looks to be in poor shape and may not support twinning without significant work. It also looks to have a telegraph pole imbedded in it, which may have had a negative effect (once again, an engineering analysis would be needed).

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I wonder if they were double tracked but have since been converted to single track.

I don't know for sure, but it doesn't look like it was. Looking at the 1965 aerial photograph on geoOttawa (the older ones don't go that far south), not only was it singe tracked then, but there is no sign of double track on either side of the bridge. Granted the bridge was built in 1911, but I would think there would at least be some visual evidence of double track had it been torn up a decade or so before that (the embankments are only wide enough for singe track and look well grown over). My guess is they built it with the option to twin it later.


Image courtesy geoOttawa (click image to enlarge)

Edit: Nija'd by OCCheetos

[Sauvanto]

Here's the new diagram, includes some of the items mentioned above

https://www.reddit.com/r/ottawa/comm...ark_mode_2060/

https://imgur.com/gallery/P3gtpnV

**Don't know how to reduce the resolution so here it is

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

Here’s a fantasy idea:

Since Kanata-North wants to be a leader in Autonomous Vehicles, how about having one (or more) companies create autonomous buses that circulate around Kanata-North.



The Green Line is the autonomous ‘circulator’. A single loop should be sufficient. The blue is the modified Baseline BRT. (I don’t understand the desire to take that BRT to Bayshore.)

In this case, I have added a transit pathway for the ‘circulator’ through the golf course. Since the golf course is being reconfigured and housing added, let’s make it more transit-oriented and add less roads. (Maybe only narrow, one-way, roads?) Pathways could be added to existing neighbourhoods on each side.

This same concept of autonomous circulators could be applied to Kanata-South:



Here, I have added two circulator loops to shuttle people to/from the LRT-Line 3 Terry Fox Station. With the circulators, there would be no need to extend the LRT past Terry Fox Station.

Automated vehicle loops to serve the Kanata High Tech sector and link-up with the Confederation Line would be a great idea.

I'm intrigued by the idea of running the Baeline BRT up Moodie, to Kanata North. That would make DND and the high-tech hub much more accessible to anyone who lived within a kilometer of the current Baseline BRT.

The best argument for the current route to Bayshore would be to provide a direct bus route to the City's Constellation offices and Algonquin, but anyone could just as easily take Line 4 and transfer to Line 1 at Lincoln Fields. Another argument would be access to QCH, but any old bus route could do the same.

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by Sauvanto

Here's the new diagram, includes some of the items mentioned above

https://www.reddit.com/r/ottawa/comm...ark_mode_2060/

https://imgur.com/gallery/P3gtpnV

**Don't know how to reduce the resolution so here it is

So this is gorgeous

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

The best argument for the current route to Bayshore would be to provide a direct bus route to the City's Constellation offices and Algonquin, but anyone could just as easily take Line 4 and transfer to Line 1 at Lincoln Fields. Another argument would be access to QCH, but any old bus route could do the same.

I think an even bigger reason to have the BRT go to Bayshore is ROW availability. It would be relatively easy to build BRT from Baseline, past the QCH to Bayshore, as the area is largely undeveloped. However, Bells Corners is heavily developed and widening Robertson Rd to accommodate BRT would be much more challenging/expensive. Now they could have the Baseline BRT run beside the Beachburg sub from Robertson to Moodie, skirting along the northern edge of Bells Corners, quite easily.

One of the nice things about BRT is any bus can use it, so buses from Bells Corners could hop onto the BRT line at the closest intersection.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

So this is gorgeous

I agree. One could nitpick about minor details, but the one major omission is a train along the Smiths Falls Sub to Fallowfield, Richmond and Smiths Falls. IMHO, it is much more likely than the lines 6 & 7 shown.

[Dzingle Bells]

I can't stop looking at this. So well done!

Originally Posted by Sauvanto

Here's the new diagram, includes some of the items mentioned above

https://www.reddit.com/r/ottawa/comm...ark_mode_2060/

https://imgur.com/gallery/P3gtpnV

**Don't know how to reduce the resolution so here it is

[Hybrid247]

Indeed, the map looks amazing, Sauvanto. Great work!