Ottawa Macdonald-Cartier International Airport (YOW/CYOW)

[YOWflier]

In case my last post seemed snobby I should mention that I fly Y a lot and still prefer the time under those circumstances for all the same reasons, plus the nonstop factor. Connections add undue risk to my schedule.

[Dominion301]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Given that LHR is not a *A hub, I really wonder how many connections from YOW there are there. Reaching late morning was fine because you make the mid-day/afternoon bank.

I don't doubt that business travelers are driving this decision based on your logic and the desire to go to work right away.

From what I understand, about 1/2 of YOW-LHR is O&D and 1/2 connections. While no longer a *A hub since BMI's merger into BA, it's a) still got the overwhelming majority of *A carriers present for connections to probably at least 30 destinations and b) AC interlines with probably the majority of non *A carriers at LHR.

[Truenorth00]

I just wish YOW would do better on existing routes. Flying to New Zealand next month. If I want to go via Vancouver, I have to leave at 7am to catch the outbound NZ flight at 825pm because the 6pm flight cuts it close. Getting up early to spend a whole day in Vancouver because there is no mid-day flight between the national capital (sixth largest) and the third largest Metro and Pacific gateway.

[MountainView]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I just wish YOW would do better on existing routes. Flying to New Zealand next month. If I want to go via Vancouver, I have to leave at 7am to catch the outbound NZ flight at 825pm because the 6pm flight cuts it close. Getting up early to spend a whole day in Vancouver because there is no mid-day flight between the national capital (sixth largest) and the third largest Metro and Pacific gateway.

YVR is going 4x daily starting July 1. But sadly, no mid-day flight.
Departures from YOW / Arrivals at YVR are at:
700 - 912
845 - 1057
1750 - 2002
2000 - 2212

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by MountainView

YVR is going 4x daily starting July 1. But sadly, no mid-day flight.
Departures from YOW / Arrivals at YVR are at:
700 - 912
845 - 1057
1750 - 2002
2000 - 2212

They could have gone with three better timed flights. 845 is too close to that 7am departure.

[Tesladom]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

We'll see. The combined carries would be around 63% according to this source:

https://flytrippers.com/air-canada-to-buy-air-transat/

I think the analysis I saw with 80% was probably AC+TS + Star Alliance (codeshare)

[Dominion301]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

They could have gone with three better timed flights. 845 is too close to that 7am departure.

I think the schedule demonstrates that YOW-YVR could easily handle a 5th daily flight mid-day in summer if an A319 were available. Maybe when the A220s arrive? Hopefully at some point a 3rd daily winter flight returns.

Maybe someday West(of YYZ)Jet will actually fly YOW-YVR (and YOW-YEG) year-round to boot.

[Tesladom]

Originally Posted by Dominion301

Maybe someday West(of YYZ)Jet will actually fly YOW-YVR (and YOW-YEG) year-round to boot.

Flying through YVR to Maui in June, I have a 7 hour layover in Vancouver, which is somewhat nice since I can go to downtown for lunch and afternoon before second leg of my flight. YVR has baggage storage service as well

[Dominion301]

Originally Posted by Tesladom

YVR has baggage storage service as well

Not that locals usually care, but YOW has them too. PARS 2000across from carousel #5: http://www.pars2000.com/Airport_Services.htm - love the retro 2000 website look.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Tesladom

Flying through YVR to Maui in June, I have a 7 hour layover in Vancouver, which is somewhat nice since I can go to downtown for lunch and afternoon before second leg of my flight. YVR has baggage storage service as well

That's great if you're on a leisure trip and don't care about getting somewhere. But for everybody else a 7 hr layover is a waste of time. At minimum, it's about 4-5 hrs wasted over a standard connection. Which is enough to pick an alternate routing in many cases.

My example above. Rather than 7am departure and 11 hr layover in YVR, I chose a two-stop trip with a 5 hr stop in Toronto and a 4 hr stop in Houston, with a 14.5 hr flight onward so I could leave later at 9am, over that long layover in Vancouver and a shorter flight (13 hrs). That's how much the extra 2 hrs are worth to me in the morning, and how much of a waste I see that long of a layover.

[YOWflier]

Long layovers definitely suck but if the alternative is adding more stops to the trip, I'm picking the long layover probably every time. The more you travel the more you realize how much havoc a misconnect will have on your plans. I'd rather be bored on the ground waiting for a flight than in the air stressed about making one. Been screwed over more times than I care to count.

[CityTech]

Agreed. When doing transatlantic, I like to cross the ocean for the first leg and domestic connection as 2nd leg. So if I'm going to Vienna I'd connect in Frankfurt on the way there but Toronto on the way back. That way if my first flight is delayed, the missed connection is much easier to fix.

I've had some really tight layovers at FRA before (sometimes as little as 1 hour between scheduled flight arrival in FRA and boarding for my connection) and while I've always made them it can be very stressful.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

Long layovers definitely suck but if the alternative is adding more stops to the trip, I'm picking the long layover probably every time. The more you travel the more you realize how much havoc a misconnect will have on your plans.

Meh. Depends on the layovers and times. In this particular case, I know that there's a myriad of ways to get to Houston to catch that connection so short of some massively disruptive continent wide event, I am confident of making that connection. Getting to Toronto and Montreal aren't big deals from here. And from either of those cities, getting to Houston is not really all that difficult.

Originally Posted by ac888yow

I'd rather be bored on the ground waiting for a flight than in the air stressed about making one. Been screwed over more times than I care to count.

Meh. I don't get stressed over that. A connection can also fall apart with a one-stop. Worst case scenario you have work to catch up on when you fly in a day later.

And in the end, let's be clear, I am doing this because of the ridiculously early departure which lead a ridiculously long layover. All because AC has just two flights a day to the third largest metro in the country out of the national capital and sixth largest metro area. With that 845 departure from July on, I might well have picked the Vancouver routing.

Also, this issue is particular to westbound/TPAC travel. Two-stops are much more rare or required going across the Atlantic.

[YOWflier]

Yes, connections can and do fail even with a one stop, but we're talking long layovers so that's much less likely to happen.

I'm not so quick to brush aside arriving a day late when my trips are typically 3 working days long. That's catastrophic to my plans.

But we have different tolerances to risk and I'm sure wildly different flying experiences. Different strokes...

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by CityTech

Agreed. When doing transatlantic, I like to cross the ocean for the first leg and domestic connection as 2nd leg. So if I'm going to Vienna I'd connect in Frankfurt on the way there but Toronto on the way back. That way if my first flight is delayed, the missed connection is much easier to fix.

I've had some really tight layovers at FRA before (sometimes as little as 1 hour between scheduled flight arrival in FRA and boarding for my connection) and while I've always made them it can be very stressful.

Not me. I don't like being dependent on a single flight out of YOW. Send me via YYZ or YUL and there's more than one way for me to reach VIE (a trip I've made a few times) including direct YYZ/YUL-VIE flight. Trying to connect at FRA is a pain in the rear. I don't want to clear customs in a non-destination city and then have to rely on a different carrier at a foreign airport for that connection. If it's avoidable, I avoid it.

Pearson and Dorval are short hops from here and you have direct flights to most destinations or one-stop options if those flights have issues. Second to those connecting at IAD and EWR are still decent.

[YOWflier]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Not me. I don't like being dependent on a single flight out of YOW. Send me via YYZ or YUL and there's more than one way for me to reach VIE (a trip I've made a few times) including direct YYZ/YUL-VIE flight. Trying to connect at FRA is a pain in the rear. I don't want to clear customs in a non-destination city and then have to rely on a different carrier at a foreign airport for that connection. If it's avoidable, I avoid it.

This makes little sense to me. You don't like a single flight out of YOW that connects in FRA to almost hourly VIE flights on either LH or OS, but then proceed to rely on a single flight from YUL or YYZ to VIE that you can easily misconnect to from here, especially in summer when the storms hit and flow control strikes.

Heck, even if the YOW flights get screwed, you still have those options as a fall back anyway.

It sounds like you haven't flown enough to have been bitten in the ass.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

Yes, connections can and do fail even with a one stop, but we're talking long layovers so that's much less likely to happen.

I have 9 hrs of layover with these two connections. So I don't see the risk as substantially higher than going via one-stop to YVR. Indeed, getting to Pearson is the lower risk solution, from my perspective.

Consider what would happen if I am at YVR and something is wrong with my inbound NZ flight. Compare that to the options I have if I'm at YYZ and find out something is wrong with my NZ flight at IAH. Heck, I will have more flexibility finding out my NZ flight has an issue at IAH than I would having the same problem at YVR.

Mostly, I don't see traveling to Toronto or Montreal as a risk. It's a quick hop and easily facilitated if the aircraft goes tech. And both those cities offer a ton more onward options than anywhere else in Canada. With hourly service from YOW, I'm not all that worried about it being risky proposition.

Originally Posted by ac888yow

I'm not so quick to brush aside arriving a day late when my trips are typically 3 working days long. That's catastrophic to my plans.

To avoid the extra stop, you'd put yourself at a smaller hub with fewer options? I don't see how that's less risk. But that's just me.

Originally Posted by ac888yow

But we have different tolerances to risk and I'm sure wildly different flying experiences. Different strokes...

Indeed. For me it's very simple.

Options equals flexibility equals lower risk for me. If I'm going to be transiting, I want to go through the largest hubs possible, where I always have the most onward options.

[YOWflier]

It's tough to follow your logic. You started all of this discussion venting about poorly timed flights to YVR for your preferred routing to NZ, but now are seemingly criticizing the YVR option because it's a smaller hub.

For me it's simple in your instance. If in YVR and your NZ inbound gets screwed, get your ass to LAX.

My flying experience has taught me one simple lesson. The less flights the better.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

This makes little sense to me. You don't like a single flight out of YOW that connects in FRA to almost hourly VIE flights on either LH or OS, but then proceed to rely on a single flight from YUL or YYZ to VIE that you can easily misconnect to from here, especially in summer when the storms hit and flow control strikes.

Heck, even if the YOW flights get screwed, you still have those options as a fall back anyway.

The FRA departure is late enough in YOW that if problems develop I will have burned through a lot of options at that point from YYZ and YUL. It's possible, I'll be departing the next day.

In this particular case, crossing the Atlantic is a bigger challenge than connecting onwards to VIE. I know that if I get to LHR, CDG, FRA, MUC, LIS, CPH, VCE, WAW, etc. I can get an easy connection to VIE. And there are flights to literally all those cities after the 1835 VIE flight from Pearson.

Originally Posted by ac888yow

It sounds like you haven't flown enough to have been bitten in the ass.

Enough to understand why getting to a big hub with lots of options is very important.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

It's tough to follow your logic. You started all of this discussion venting about poorly timed flights to YVR for your preferred routing to NZ, but now are seemingly criticizing the YVR option because it's a smaller hub.

Mostly a response to your suggestion that you'd always take a one-stop with a long layover, over a two-stop. I am pointing out here that not all two-stop routings are equal. Getting to YYZ or YUL is so trivial from YOW that it's barely a real added stop and the convenience it adds is substantial. A good trade for me. Especially given the alternative of having to leave home at 5am to catch that flight to YVR.

I'd have somewhat accepted the risk if it wasn't an 11 hr layover and a crap departure time.....

Originally Posted by ac888yow

For me it's simple in your instance. If in YVR and your NZ inbound gets screwed, get your ass to LAX.

Really no difference between IAH and YVR in this particular case. Plenty of flights between IAH and SFO, since both are United hubs. And literally double the amount of IAH-LAX flights compared to YVR-LAX flights.