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  #45001  
Old Posted May 9, 2019, 9:12 PM
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CoS’s name is all over the building permits for the artcraft building.

The adjacent site on lasalle did get cleared last year (RIP surface parking lot), but for the two projects to connect back-to-back they’d have to destroy connectivity for the alley between them, which I don’t think happens.
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  #45002  
Old Posted May 9, 2019, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright View Post
It likely lacks the characteristics and workability that makes steel such a good building material. In theory the coated rebar should make it more or less a moot point anyhow. Everything requires maintenance and usually lasts a long time when properly taken care of.

When you consider the general durability of reenforced concrete, it's not really a big issue. I'm looking at a building now that's been vacant since the 70s with no upkeep and a leaking roof. There is some damage from spawling, but it's all basically cosmetic flaking even after 40+ years of neglect. It's going to take next to no work to fix once someone gets at it and the materials couldn't be cheaper. There are unreenforced structures all over the place that have stood since Roman times because they've been kept up. Imagine how long a structure like Nema or a 1920s factory or atomic era poured in place structures that pushed the boundaries of engineering like Marina City can last? Assuming someone patches Marina City at least once every 50 years or so it should be able to stand virtually forever. So the biggest reason no one has replaced it is that this building system already works very very well.

There are a lot of people trained in it as well which is one of the issues older masonry buildings have had; the skills and understanding of the system are lacking.
Got it. Thanks for the insight.
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  #45003  
Old Posted May 10, 2019, 1:42 AM
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905 W FultonMarket

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  #45004  
Old Posted May 10, 2019, 1:50 AM
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UIC Engineering building:



This campus plus the IMD are really making the Near Southwest side an exciting area to pop into every once in a while
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  #45005  
Old Posted May 10, 2019, 3:19 PM
Jim in Chicago Jim in Chicago is online now
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Originally Posted by wierdaaron View Post
CoS’s name is all over the building permits for the artcraft building.

The adjacent site on lasalle did get cleared last year (RIP surface parking lot), but for the two projects to connect back-to-back they’d have to destroy connectivity for the alley between them, which I don’t think happens.
Are those still the original permits from like 10 years ago?

I just found that 5 permits were issued about a year ago, which is about when the latest round of work began. Are those the ones that reference COS? The permits I can see online just say "owner". This building has quite the history, the most recent thing I find on the property records is that the city filed a Lis pendens against the COS in 2013.

Last edited by Jim in Chicago; May 10, 2019 at 3:37 PM.
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  #45006  
Old Posted May 10, 2019, 3:46 PM
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Not a clue and have been wondering. I think it abuts to the the planned development on LaSalle that I haven't heard much about recently. I wonder if it could be part of that.

I thought that the Scientologists were long out of the deal next door. That was planned before the economy went bust and the Scientologists began to run out of steam.
Assuming this building in numbered 700 S. Clark (nothing in that stretch seems to have street numbers on them...) the building permits say:

Description: ALTERATIONS AND REPAIRS TO EAST MASONRY EXTERIOR WALL OF AN EXISTING 1-STORY RESTAURANT BUILDING AS PER PLANS.

to call that a "restaurant building is a stretch, it's been nothing but various tire shops and parking garages for at least a decade. I sort of like that facade and am sorry to see it go.

There are other permits for "recoat/recover" and plumbing work.

The use of the word "restaurant" could bode well, I've long thought that would make an interesting restaurant space, but with the facade gone...
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  #45007  
Old Posted May 10, 2019, 5:38 PM
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Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright View Post
There are unreenforced structures all over the place that have stood since Roman times because they've been kept up.

Interesting thing about Roman Concrete is that it was very different from the modern version we use based on Portland Cement. The mixture they used included volcanic ash and seawater that resulted in a material that had high tensile strength, little plasticity, resisted fracturing, and didn't degrade when exposed to seawater. In fact, as seawater penetrated the concrete it would react with the volcanic ash causing a reaction that reinforced the material preventing fracturing.

Which is one of the reasons why those structures in wet marine environments have survived millennia with little to no maintenance while modern concrete structures will, at a minimum, require some maintenance.
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  #45008  
Old Posted May 10, 2019, 6:04 PM
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If the Roman concrete is more durable why isn't it being used now?
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  #45009  
Old Posted May 10, 2019, 6:33 PM
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I wrote a paper on ancient construction (not just Rome) back in the day. Roman concrete, such as in the pantheon, wasn't poured into forms like modern concrete. It was hand laid and hand pounded into place. It's more masonry than concrete. The pounding eliminated voids and air bubbles, made the concrete much more dense, stronger. As they built, they could vary the aggregate, structure, chemistry as they went. Essentially roman concrete was 3D printed - by hand. In no way would it be economical to build that way today.
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  #45010  
Old Posted May 10, 2019, 6:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Baronvonellis View Post
If the Roman concrete is more durable why isn't it being used now?
If I remember correctly no one has been able to recreate it, and also due to using volcanic ash it would be more expensive.
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  #45011  
Old Posted May 10, 2019, 7:25 PM
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If I remember correctly no one has been able to recreate it, and also due to using volcanic ash it would be more expensive.
Fly ash from coal power plants has many of the same chemical properties as the volcanic ash the Romans used, and it's used in quite a few concrete pours these days.

But there are always trade-offs; in our cold climate, concrete actually needs air pockets inside to absorb the expansion of ice crystals from moisture in cold weather. It's a bad thing for it to be too dense. Pozzolanic concrete mixes (like Roman concrete or concrete with fly ash) are denser than traditional Portland cement mixes, and they could have bad spalling problems if exposed to freeze/thaw cycles. That's obviously not a problem in Italy...
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  #45012  
Old Posted May 10, 2019, 7:28 PM
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Anyone know whats going on with the building being demolished at Fremont & Blackhawk? (By SoNo) That building wasn't part of the prior factory that was on the site I thought? Thanks in advance for anyone that can clear up the confusion for me.
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  #45013  
Old Posted May 10, 2019, 11:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Baronvonellis View Post
If the Roman concrete is more durable why isn't it being used now?

The problem was that the techniques and knowledge was lost, along with most written records, when most of Rome burned between the 4th and 8th centuries. Not to mention the general reduction in literacy.

It wasn't until recently that we were able to determine the chemical composition. That said we still lack information on the ratios used to create the mixtures that comprise concrete...which is all the more difficult since...as said above...they tended to vary it as they went.
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  #45014  
Old Posted May 11, 2019, 12:08 AM
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The problem was that the techniques and knowledge was lost, along with most written records, when most of Rome burned between the 4th and 8th centuries. Not to mention the general reduction in literacy.

It wasn't until recently that we were able to determine the chemical composition. That said we still lack information on the ratios used to create the mixtures that comprise concrete...which is all the more difficult since...as said above...they tended to vary it as they went.
Decline in literacy between then and now?

https://www.jstor.org/stable/295333?...n_tab_contents

Literacy in the Roman provinces varied between five to ten percent, with some areas achieving up to twenty percent.

https://www1.umassd.edu/ir/resources...n/literacy.pdf

Literacy in the Middle Ages was not appreciably below that of the Roman era (using England as an example), even if there was a slight drop, and we've since risen far above that of the Roman era.

https://nces.ed.gov/naal/kf_demographics.asp#3

Literacy in the United States is around an order of magnitude above that.

Ergo, I doubt literacy really played into this loss of knowledge. Rather, nobody had access to the knowledge at all because it was burned and lost. And even if literacy declined, some people were still literate. If the records still existed, somebody literate would have been around to perpetuate the knowledge.
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  #45015  
Old Posted May 11, 2019, 3:29 AM
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Originally Posted by ardecila View Post
Fly ash from coal power plants has many of the same chemical properties as the volcanic ash the Romans used, and it's used in quite a few concrete pours these days.

But there are always trade-offs; in our cold climate, concrete actually needs air pockets inside to absorb the expansion of ice crystals from moisture in cold weather. It's a bad thing for it to be too dense. Pozzolanic concrete mixes (like Roman concrete or concrete with fly ash) are denser than traditional Portland cement mixes, and they could have bad spalling problems if exposed to freeze/thaw cycles. That's obviously not a problem in Italy...
Very interesting.
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  #45016  
Old Posted May 11, 2019, 5:20 AM
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Former bank building at 1965 N Milwaukee Ave (former Cole bank) has a permit to make part of it into a restaurant with bar and "interactive game rooms." Owner on the permit is one of the founders of Cards Against Humanity. Anybody have any idea of what he's planning with that one?
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  #45017  
Old Posted May 11, 2019, 10:48 AM
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Very interesting.
No doubt. Thanks gents.
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  #45018  
Old Posted May 11, 2019, 1:13 PM
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3300 N Clark

Over the months I pass by this site hoping that construction has started. Yesterday it’s still being used for Cubs parking.

Really would be a bummer if this project has hit some sort of snag....East Lakeview is already getting pummeled with demolitions for the Belmont flyover project...
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  #45019  
Old Posted May 11, 2019, 2:11 PM
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Originally Posted by the urban politician View Post
Over the months I pass by this site hoping that construction has started. Yesterday it’s still being used for Cubs parking.

Really would be a bummer if this project has hit some sort of snag....East Lakeview is already getting pummeled with demolitions for the Belmont flyover project...
This... and in general it may take a decade for the Wrigley/East Lakeview area to recover from the scars of the flyover.
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  #45020  
Old Posted May 11, 2019, 4:35 PM
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Originally Posted by marothisu View Post
Former bank building at 1965 N Milwaukee Ave (former Cole bank) has a permit to make part of it into a restaurant with bar and "interactive game rooms." Owner on the permit is one of the founders of Cards Against Humanity. Anybody have any idea of what he's planning with that one?
this is the margie's candies building - will have 20 apartments plus various retail on the first floor. brewery and a coffee shop have been mentioned in the press. the whole thing has been "under construction" on and off for at least 2 years.
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